No Belts or Wraps Allowed in RAW Powerlifting

Training Powerlifting
81

[quote]sumabeast wrote:
why do some dudes throw the “gay” word out at everything that they can’t handle, accept as true, defend or disprove?
the question of who is stronger is suddenly no longer relavent or doesn’t matter, when it don’t stack up in your favor, I get it.[/quote]
I can handle raw lifting. I don’t accept that a belt or wrist wraps makes someone stronger and I’ve defended that viewpoint with cold hard facts; I’m yet to have someone disprove my points. So far the best argument against it is that it makes it easier for someone to lift, not that they couldn’t lift it at all without it.

The question of being stronger is relevant, but you cannot compare different lifts. This is a basic point, that makes complete sense, that everyone asking the question seems happy to fucking ignore. Notice how the equipped competitors aren’t asking the question?
A lift in equipment is different to a raw lift. A lift in more extreme equipment is different again. What constitutes a squat or bench differs depending on where you perform it.

It’s a stupid question. You can get pissed off at me saying it, but it’s true and I’ll justify it. Bear in mind that all of the following are TRUE facts that I myself have performed or witnessed with people I train with constantly, not some “hypothetical” example.
It’s a stupid question because:

  1. Totally raw, people can benchpress 25-75lbs more IPA style than IPF, but for some people it’s vice versa.
  2. Totally raw, people can squat more than 100lbs more doing a widestance squat that would pass in a double ply fed, but again some people can’t.
  3. You can get 0-100lbs out of knee wraps.
  4. You can get 0-225lbs out of a single ply suit and wraps in the IPF. That’s squatting deep.
  5. You can get 0-200lbs out of a single ply shirt.
  6. You can get 0-110lbs in a single ply deadlift suit.
  7. Lifters with the high range of carryover can often improve their raw numbers rapidly once they train for raw; raw lifters numbers suffer if they train for equipment.

So you have 7 variables with a range of up to 225lbs. Honestly, there’s more variables than that, but I stuck with the ones I personally know for fact. So even limiting the variables;
Mathematically, you’ve got a better chance of winning the lottery than you do of coming up with an accurate answer as to who’s stronger. Hence, it’s a stupid question.

82

[quote]sumabeast wrote:
doesn’t matter??? in the bigger scheme of life, yeah none of this matters it’s just after all it’s just iron game.
but since this whole forum is about iron game, and strength or powerlifting then it is a legit topic for discussion.

consider this then:
BOB: admitted juicer squats 700
JOHN: lifetime natural squats 700, all other conditions are equal, both wore a belt

who is stronger?
if you say JOHN is stronger, then I can’t see how anyone would dismiss the previous example?[/quote]

Duh. They are both the same strength. If all other conditions are equal, BOB does not have any more size or mass or stronger connective tissue than JOHN. The steroids by themselves don’t make someone lift more, the changes in their body as a result are what actually makes them stronger.
If I were to inject test while typing this, I wouldn’t be any stronger 5 minutes from now.

83

[quote]sumabeast wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
… none of this matters. whose arms are bigger? who has banged the most chicks? Mike has squatted more weight in a meet so I assume he can chug a beer faster than Joe. These are all questions that need to be answered before your hypothetical scenario can have any validity.[/quote]

doesn’t matter??? in the bigger scheme of life, yeah none of this matters it’s just after all it’s just iron game.
but since this whole forum is about iron game, and strength or powerlifting then it is a legit topic for discussion.

consider this then:
BOB: admitted juicer squats 700
JOHN: lifetime natural squats 700, all other conditions are equal, both wore a belt

who is stronger?
if you say JOHN is stronger, then I can’t see how anyone would dismiss the previous example?[/quote]

This is flawed because the definition of strong has nothing to do with the number someone squats with a belt. If BOB stops taking anything for a month and squats 680 then all you can say on the above is “JOHN squats 20lbs more than BOB”, it is what it is and nobody can argue with that.

84

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
I use the “gay” word because I am gay.

And 700 is 700. If Bob is juicing and can only squat 700 he is:

  1. more committed to his lifting because he decided to take steroids, which I consider a badge of honor in strength sports
  2. on a terrible program
  3. must be using a thicker belt than John, because everyone knows a thick belt has a 300lb carryover.

You hit the nail on the head. The internet has made whoever is stronger irrelavent. All that matters on the internet how concerned people are about whatever they feel is the right way to do things. When what really matters is lifting weights and getting stronger in real life, which 99% of people who claim to be involved in powerlifting have completely neglected.[/quote]

Actually, if he’s juicing and not pulling ahead of the natural guy, he’s probably less dedicated.

Plus, it isn’t a badge of honor in a competition where they are against the rules. In that case, you’re just a pussy cheater. If they aren’t against the rules, then I don’t care.

85

[quote]sumabeast wrote:
Here’s an example simply put, both lifters same weight, near same age
JOE: squats 600 no belt no wraps
MIKE: squats 900 with any combo or all of belt, wraps, squat suit

but MIKE can’t squat 600 no belt no wraps

who is the stonger lifter?[/quote]

This is retarded. Do you realize the 2 things you are trying to compare are entirely different lifts?

Guy X pulls 900 and squats 800

Guy Y pulls 800 and squats 900

Who is stronger?

Geared and raw are different lifts. You can not compare the 2 directly. Geared lifting is a sport defined by rules. You don’t like the, fine, don’t participate in the sport. But don’t try and say, the rules of the sport should be the way I want them. Baseball players get to use a bat to increase their ability to hit the ball. I don’t go on to baseball forums and tell players that the should be using their bare hands to hit the ball.

86

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
I use the “gay” word because I am gay.

And 700 is 700. If Bob is juicing and can only squat 700 he is:

  1. more committed to his lifting because he decided to take steroids, which I consider a badge of honor in strength sports
  2. on a terrible program
  3. must be using a thicker belt than John, because everyone knows a thick belt has a 300lb carryover.

You hit the nail on the head. The internet has made whoever is stronger irrelavent. All that matters on the internet how concerned people are about whatever they feel is the right way to do things. When what really matters is lifting weights and getting stronger in real life, which 99% of people who claim to be involved in powerlifting have completely neglected.[/quote]

Actually, if he’s juicing and not pulling ahead of the natural guy, he’s probably less dedicated.

Plus, it isn’t a badge of honor in a competition where they are against the rules. In that case, you’re just a pussy cheater. If they aren’t against the rules, then I don’t care.[/quote]

Totally agree.

87

@ smokotime, the steroids by themselves don’t make anyone stronger? yeah duh its a liquid, we know that, but we also know of what supra-natural changes they produce in the body. Besides if it’s like you say, then why do we call juicers cheaters? why do we test for AAS use?

you and others also said that , the belt, wraps or suit gives a lifter xxlbs more in his bench/squat, whatever. If that’s not force carry over to the bar, or added strength, then what is it??

@ doubleduce,
“Actually, if he’s juicing and not pulling ahead of the natural guy, he’s probably less dedicated.”
less dedicated? , why not naturally he’s prob could only squat 600, but with juice he’s able to get 700.

88

[quote]sumabeast wrote:
@ smokotime, the steroids by themselves don’t make anyone stronger? yeah duh its a liquid, we know that, but we also know of what supra-natural changes they produce in the body. Besides if it’s like you say, then why do we call juicers cheaters? why do we test for AAS use?

you and others also said that , the belt, wraps or suit gives a lifter xxlbs more in his bench/squat, whatever. If that’s not force carry over to the bar, or added strength, then what is it??

@ doubleduce,
“Actually, if he’s juicing and not pulling ahead of the natural guy, he’s probably less dedicated.”
less dedicated? , why not naturally he’s prob could only squat 600, but with juice he’s able to get 700.
[/quote]

I don’t think you understood my comment.

And as for the belt/wrist wrap controversy:
Suits, shirts, and knee wraps actually add energy to the lifting of the weight. they store potential energy in the eccentric portion (setup on DL) and then transfer that force/energy to the bar during the concentric portion. With these, the lifter does not physically do all the work to lift the weight.

The belt and wrist wraps, add no energy to the system. They can increase the lifters ability to transfer the lifter’s force to the bar. You can do more weight wearing a belt, BUT all the force and energy through the entire lift still come from the lifter.

That is how they are different.

As a guy whose had back issues growing up and back issues lifting heavy sans belt, I’m glad they let me use it.

89

Crazy RAW lifting video. Pure, unassisted strength:

90

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
Crazy RAW lifting video. Pure, unassisted strength:

Proof that raw is a good way to injure your back.

91

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

And as for the belt/wrist wrap controversy:
Suits, shirts, and knee wraps actually add energy to the lifting of the weight…
With these, the lifter does not physically do all the work to lift the weight.

The belt and wrist wraps, add no energy to the system… You can do more weight wearing a belt,…[/quote]

i only left the most pertinent parts of your quote above. wish there was a way to highlight or bold text on here.

But this is my whole point, suits, bench shirts provide assistance, you can lift more wearing them, BUT that is also true of wearing a belt and knee wraps. As you said you can do more weight wearing a belt.
Soooo the lifter who squats/ pulls sans belt ought to be considered stronger (as in the hypothetical I posed earlier)

92

[quote]sumabeast wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

And as for the belt/wrist wrap controversy:
Suits, shirts, and knee wraps actually add energy to the lifting of the weight…
With these, the lifter does not physically do all the work to lift the weight.

The belt and wrist wraps, add no energy to the system… You can do more weight wearing a belt,…[/quote]

i only left the most pertinent parts of your quote above. wish there was a way to highlight or bold text on here.

But this is my whole point, suits, bench shirts provide assistance, you can lift more wearing them, BUT that is also true of wearing a belt and knee wraps. As you said you can do more weight wearing a belt.
Soooo the lifter who squats/ pulls sans belt ought to be considered stronger (as in the hypothetical I posed earlier)[/quote]

No, because you don’t now which lifter is exerting more force. You simply cannot compare different lifts that way.

Besides, you completely miss the point of powerlifting. Powerlifting does not determine who is the strongest, it determines who can move the most weight. These are different things. Otherwise, I should get a bonus for shitty technique.

93

LOL, you guys revel in semantics: “powerlifting determines who can move the most weight…” yeah no shit!
and just how is that accomplished? with a forklift? of course we lift it and guess what, you gotta be strong to move that weigt.

dude, what logic are you using?
lifter A squatted 700 in a belt
lifter B did the same weight without a belt
according to YOU, you can do more weight wearing a belt, so figure it out. What does that say about B if he wore a belt?

94

Powerlifting is actually about who can lift the most weight under certain agreed-upon conditions. Throughout the entire history of powerlifting one of those conditions has been the allowance for belts (which meet certain size standards).

The equipment rules in powerlifting aren’t meant to eliminate every possible variable that could allow someone to lift more than they could without that variable/equipment (even the raw federations), the rules simply allow everyone to compete under the same conditions.

Thus, it can be said that under a particular set of conditions, lifter A lifted more or less than lifter B. If the conditions are drastically different (belt, wraps vs. multi-ply equipment) you can’t really make any real comparison between lifts or lifters.

95

[quote]sumabeast wrote:
LOL, you guys revel in semantics: “powerlifting determines who can move the most weight…” yeah no shit!
and just how is that accomplished? with a forklift? of course we lift it and guess what, you gotta be strong to move that weigt.

dude, what logic are you using?
lifter A squatted 700 in a belt
lifter B did the same weight without a belt
according to YOU, you can do more weight wearing a belt, so figure it out. What does that say about B if he wore a belt?
[/quote]

Some guys get nothing out of a belt. Either way, they are both exerting the same force.

What if lifter A does is with shitty technique and just muscles up the weight. Now the way he did the lift required more strength than the guy with no belt and good technique. This is why I said it’s about moving weight, not whose the strongest.

Most guys I see benching could probably instantly add 30 pounds to their bench with technique changes while adding no strength. now their friend still benches 30 pounds less because he didn’t change his technique. Who’s stronger?

Strength is only one of the factors in powerlifting.

96

[quote]sumabeast wrote:
@ smokotime, the steroids by themselves don’t make anyone stronger? yeah duh its a liquid, we know that, but we also know of what supra-natural changes they produce in the body. Besides if it’s like you say, then why do we call juicers cheaters? why do we test for AAS use?

you and others also said that , the belt, wraps or suit gives a lifter xxlbs more in his bench/squat, whatever. If that’s not force carry over to the bar, or added strength, then what is it??
[/quote]

I said if all other conditions are equal, as you yourself said, BOB does not have any more size or mass or stronger connective tissue than JOHN. i.e. he doesn’t have an advantage from the AAS. I said that AAS can result in stronger athletes due to a physiological change it brings about.
I did not say the belt gives xxlbs more. I said assistive gear can give a range, and it is impossible to pick what a lifter would do without it unless they tell you.
A belt helps you maintain stability. It doesn’t make you any stronger than you could be without a belt, but it makes it more likely you’ll stay tight and strong. Again, a point I’ve mentioned before.
Address my points or the entirety of my post if you take issue with what I’ve said.

Also, who calls juicers cheaters if they’re in an untested division?