So maybe the colleges should now hand out W-2 or 1099s to the student-athletes. Lets see them pay the taxes on that Private School tuition, any earnings they now might be able to bargain for, food that they eat, and any treatments they get in the locker room. Yall know any student athletes that have $10-40k laying around to pay taxes on this stuff?
Also any hookers paid for by the college to get them there. Do not forget about that fringe benefit.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
So are Maddy Wollmuth and Colleen Ward (Virginia Tech Lacrosse) entitled to the same pay as Andrew Wiggins?? I think people conveniently forget that there are only two college sports that make money and the profits from those two literally support every other sport. But if an athletic scholarship (why just athletic, why not academic also) equates to a paycheck, then are all scholarship athletes employees, and if that’s the case, should profit of sport effect whether or not scholarships can be given (this is the death nail to all women’s athletic scholarships if so). [/quote]
And let’s move this one step further. What about the girl scouts? I mean, surely that girl who sold 20k boxes of cookies deserves more than a trip to Washington DC (or whatever crap they give out as a reward)?
[/quote]
Yes, let’s move the debate away from should some college athletes who generate a shit ton of money be rewarded for that to what about the girl scouts?
We can either talk about this or go down really stupid rabbit holes. If we want to talk about college athletes that sounds fun. If we want to talk about other shit and pretend it is the exact same as what I was saying then I’d rather not.
“I guess if we’re going to do X we may as well do Y” is one of the laziest forms of argument you can encounter. Why talk about anything if we’re just going to skip around going “what about the lemonade stand ran by my daughter this summer she needs a bailout if GM got one!”
“If we invaded Iraq why not Canada?”
“If we went into Afghanistan why not Russia?”
I mean we can talk and debate these things if you like because I think it would be interesting, but this type of “what about the guy who cleaned my oven two summers ago does he get a scholarship” nonsense is a waste of time. [/quote]
My reference to the girl scouts is EXACTLY the same thing as the scholarship players.
Both are under a non-profit organization. Both perform services that render skills to them but perform actions that financially benefit their organization.
The only difference we are talking here is the AMOUNT of money.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
I would love to see us get rid of one and done go back to letting kids go pro when they can. The point of making them wait is what exactly? [/quote]
That’s the NBA not college. [/quote]
So why isn’t the NCAA pushing hard to get rid of this? [/quote]
What influence does the NCAA have on the NBA?
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
Actually, the membership is income and taxable, although he’s probably an independent contractor and not an employee. Depending on the amount, he should probably get a 1099 (but not a W-2).
[/quote]
No. If, as a member, I had owed that money to the gym and they forgave my debt, that would be taxable.
If I’m the gym and I want to give away free memberships, that’s my business and I can do what I want as long as this person didn’t enter into a contract stating things like “I’ll only work out here, I’ll be here on these days from this time, I’ll represent you at body building competitions, etc”.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
I would love to see us get rid of one and done go back to letting kids go pro when they can. The point of making them wait is what exactly? [/quote]
That’s the NBA not college. [/quote]
So why isn’t the NCAA pushing hard to get rid of this? [/quote]
What influence does the NCAA have on the NBA?[/quote]
I can give you their boilerplate answer: “The NCAA believes education takes first priority over sports; as such, we want all of our athletes to complete their college degree prior to entering professional sports.”
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
I would love to see us get rid of one and done go back to letting kids go pro when they can. The point of making them wait is what exactly? [/quote]
That’s the NBA not college. [/quote]
So why isn’t the NCAA pushing hard to get rid of this? [/quote]
What influence does the NCAA have on the NBA?[/quote]
They work together frequently on issues regarding both of them.
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
My reference to the girl scouts is EXACTLY the same thing as the scholarship players.
Both are under a non-profit organization. Both perform services that render skills to them but perform actions that financially benefit their organization.
The only difference we are talking here is the AMOUNT of money.
[/quote]
And age. All things that really fucking matter. Johnny Manziel could generate 37 million dollars for the University, but couldn’t make money by signing his fucking name?
At the…non profit organization. No SEC football school makes money right?
I have yet to make an argument for or against. I just can’t believe how cavalier people are about this. The NCAA is a joke of an institution that will turn a blind eye to anything as long as the money is flowing in. Why are we taking their side without even thinking about it?
All you guys see is greedy college kids. I see red tape in the way of common sense things like letting a kid who generates a shit ton of money keep some of it instead of saying “look at the value of this room!”
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
My reference to the girl scouts is EXACTLY the same thing as the scholarship players.
Both are under a non-profit organization. Both perform services that render skills to them but perform actions that financially benefit their organization.
The only difference we are talking here is the AMOUNT of money.
[/quote]
And age. All things that really fucking matter. Johnny Manziel could generate 37 million dollars for the University, but couldn’t make money by signing his fucking name?
At the…non profit organization. No SEC football school makes money right?
I have yet to make an argument for or against. I just can’t believe how cavalier people are about this. The NCAA is a joke of an institution that will turn a blind eye to anything as long as the money is flowing in. Why are we taking their side without even thinking about it?
All you guys see is greedy college kids. I see red tape in the way of common sense things like letting a kid who generates a shit ton of money keep some of it instead of saying “look at the value of this room!”
It’s at least worthy of discussion and pros and cons instead of everyone running around talking about the girl scouts. [/quote]
You act like colleges are these money grubbing corporations.
Besides paying salaries, money brought in to the schools goes to things, oh you know, scholarships, facilities, education, extra curricular activities …things that universities are truly there for.
I can give a turd about what NCAA players do on the side to make money. I’m with you 100% drawing the line there.
But the entire discussion that players are “employees” is just asinine. By definition, that would make anyone who is on scholarship at the University an employee.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
I would love to see us get rid of one and done go back to letting kids go pro when they can. The point of making them wait is what exactly? [/quote]
That’s the NBA not college. [/quote]
So why isn’t the NCAA pushing hard to get rid of this? [/quote]
What influence does the NCAA have on the NBA?[/quote]
They work together frequently on issues regarding both of them. [/quote]
Like what?
I will agree that whatever the kids can do to make money should be fair game (legally of course) and as that is a small minority of individuals I cant see it being that catastrophic to college athletics. I have always thought that if a kid can profit from his name, regardless of whether or not he made that name playing college ball, then he should be allowed to. That’s his business.
And you are right about SEC football schools making a lot of money, most football programs do, along with men’s basketball. But where do you think the money that those programs make goes? A lot of that money goes to keeping the womens and other mens programs afloat. The rest goes to improving the campus. This money, for the most part, is not going into some guys pocket.
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
Actually, the membership is income and taxable, although he’s probably an independent contractor and not an employee. Depending on the amount, he should probably get a 1099 (but not a W-2).
[/quote]
No. If, as a member, I had owed that money to the gym and they forgave my debt, that would be taxable.
If I’m the gym and I want to give away free memberships, that’s my business and I can do what I want as long as this person didn’t enter into a contract stating things like “I’ll only work out here, I’ll be here on these days from this time, I’ll represent you at body building competitions, etc”. [/quote]
I’ll defer to Beans on this, but providing something of value in exchange for sales sounds like taxable income to me, not a “gift.”
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
My reference to the girl scouts is EXACTLY the same thing as the scholarship players.
Both are under a non-profit organization. Both perform services that render skills to them but perform actions that financially benefit their organization.
The only difference we are talking here is the AMOUNT of money.
[/quote]
And age. All things that really fucking matter. Johnny Manziel could generate 37 million dollars for the University, but couldn’t make money by signing his fucking name?
At the…non profit organization. No SEC football school makes money right?
I have yet to make an argument for or against. I just can’t believe how cavalier people are about this. The NCAA is a joke of an institution that will turn a blind eye to anything as long as the money is flowing in. Why are we taking their side without even thinking about it?
All you guys see is greedy college kids. I see red tape in the way of common sense things like letting a kid who generates a shit ton of money keep some of it instead of saying “look at the value of this room!”
It’s at least worthy of discussion and pros and cons instead of everyone running around talking about the girl scouts. [/quote]
You act like colleges are these money grubbing corporations.
Besides paying salaries, money brought in to the schools goes to things, oh you know, scholarships, facilities, education, extra curricular activities …things that universities are truly there for.
I can give a turd about what NCAA players do on the side to make money. I’m with you 100% drawing the line there.
But the entire discussion that players are “employees” is just asinine. By definition, that would make anyone who is on scholarship at the University an employee. [/quote]
I don’t know if colleges are money grubbing corporations or not. I don’t think the union line is the way to go. I think the DEBATE needs to happen. Why can colleges make insane amounts off jersey sales and video games (which JUST NOW got shot down) off kids and those kids not see a damn dime FROM THEIR OWN NAME?
How is it not greedy to profit an insane amount off of a Heisman trophy winner or huge name 19 year old kid and not let him have ANY slice of that pie? Oh yeah, he gets a small sliver so it’s fair. How?
The market is showing his value is really high. And his payoff for that value? Extremely low because it has been determined by bureaucrats that he can’t make more money.
Oh but he has a choice right? I mean no one makes him play college football even though that is where all his value is and where he is most skilled. It’s cool because we give him meals, showers, food.
Fuck him right, he’s a student athlete. Guy already has it all. We should be able to put him in whatever we want and make a ton off him. We own his name as long as he goes here.
The NCAA is as crooked as it gets. I can see reasons to not pay kids and all sorts of issues that would need to be worked out. I just can’t believe so many people are dismissing this entirely without thought. I’m glad these guys unionized. It won’t work, but maybe it will further the discussion into something that actually makes some sense.
I’d love to actually talk about some of these things and leave girl scouts and other things out.
Can’t sell stuff you’ve signed, but people can make millions off of you.
People can get gigantic guaranteed contracts because of how well you play, but one injury and you’re out.
How about if you get an injury while at college on a scholarship? What if you have problems after you graduate with it? No big thing, no one forces you to play?
That can’t be the answer to it all.
[quote]H factor wrote:
I’d love to actually talk about some of these things and leave girl scouts and other things out.
Can’t sell stuff you’ve signed, but people can make millions off of you.
People can get gigantic guaranteed contracts because of how well you play, but one injury and you’re out.
How about if you get an injury while at college on a scholarship? What if you have problems after you graduate with it? No big thing, no one forces you to play?
That can’t be the answer to it all.
I do 100% think that once a athletic scholarship is offered and accepted, it should be binding for the entire 4 years unless the athlete leaves. Star recruit plays like shit, tough, gets hurt, tougher, but the college should be forced to uphold a commitment to these kids no matter what.
[quote]H factor wrote:
I’d love to actually talk about some of these things and leave girl scouts and other things out.
Can’t sell stuff you’ve signed, but people can make millions off of you.
People can get gigantic guaranteed contracts because of how well you play, but one injury and you’re out.
How about if you get an injury while at college on a scholarship? What if you have problems after you graduate with it? No big thing, no one forces you to play?
That can’t be the answer to it all.
I totally agree that these are relevant concerns and should be addressed; however, I still stand by the fact that you are not an employee of the school.
Should you be able to make money on the side? Absolutely.
Should your scholarship be taken away if you are injured? Absolutely not.
Should there be some kind of university funded insurance program if you are injured? Mm, debatable. You know the risks when you go in doing it. It’s not like you are an uninformed decision maker.
Should they get a cut of the money the school brings in? No. As soon as you do that, you now have “Student Athletes” who will never be students. Half the kids don’t attend classes as it is. So what do you have? A professional sports league. Well, why even go to the school in the first place?
And to address the AD’s wage and bonus. That’s how compensation/incentive compensation works. That’s how you get good people to stay.
Good athletes will be at a school a max of 4 years and gone. Their incentive to do well is having a professional sports career after they are done or their name remembered. Not to mention world class coaches, health professionals, trainers, food, education, lodging, etc. Do you know how much all that stuff would be without a scholarship? Over 4 years, you are probably at $250k +.
And then what do you do about non-scholarship players? What happens to those guys? Are they just the runts?
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
I totally agree that these are relevant concerns and should be addressed; however, I still stand by the fact that you are not an employee of the school.
Should you be able to make money on the side? Absolutely.
Should your scholarship be taken away if you are injured? Absolutely not.
Should there be some kind of university funded insurance program if you are injured? Mm, debatable. You know the risks when you go in doing it. It’s not like you are an uninformed decision maker.
Should they get a cut of the money the school brings in? No. As soon as you do that, you now have “Student Athletes” who will never be students. Half the kids don’t attend classes as it is. So what do you have? A professional sports league. Well, why even go to the school in the first place?
And to address the AD’s wage and bonus. That’s how compensation/incentive compensation works. That’s how you get good people to stay.
Good athletes will be at a school a max of 4 years and gone. Their incentive to do well is having a professional sports career after they are done or their name remembered. Not to mention world class coaches, health professionals, trainers, food, education, lodging, etc. Do you know how much all that stuff would be without a scholarship? Over 4 years, you are probably at $250k +.
And then what do you do about non-scholarship players? What happens to those guys? Are they just the runts?[/quote]
I never said that I agreed with the employee of the school, but I do support the unionization movement if it leads to a discussion where kids stop getting taken advantage of.
Some of your positions don’t jive with me. How are kids who are doing 40+ hours a week on their sport supposed to afford insurance? Your solution is “these 18 year olds knew the risk when they decided to play Division 1 football.” Really? That’s it? That’s fair? So a kid who can’t afford insurance because they spend all this time training gets a spinal injury and they are just shit out of luck? They knew the risks?
Kids shouldn’t get a cut of the money when video game companies use their likeness? When a university uses their number? Seems pretty unfair. Goes back to that exploitation thing. We can make a shit ton of money off of you, but you can’t make it off of us. We’ve given you your “wage” now accept it. We have all the power and always have.
The student athlete thing is already a joke. It should be athlete student. Get real you think the current situation would be worse than it already is? If we got rid of these restrictions we wouldn’t have 18 year old kids who the NBA wants to draft but first they must have a year of college. The NCAA is ALREADY the developmental league for elite athletes. It’s perfect. Colleges make a shit ton off elite athletes and the pros don’t have to pay kids who are 18. They get a year or two like in football for the athletes to see who pans out best. Lift this and you lift some of the problems.
The AD thing is hilarious. AD’s can sign gigantic contracts based off how well an athlete does, but an athlete that has a great season gets a trophy? Incentives tied to how well 18-22 year old kids perform for the AD, the coaches, etc is just the market man. Kids don’t deserve those same market mechanisms. We need bureaucrats to place the restrictions on them for there own good? What about the kids who have 3 terrific years and may go pro and then get injured? They knew the risks right? Shame they couldn’t get any money why they were highly marketable and valuable. The AD and coaches could off of them because that’s how compensation works.
It just isn’t how compensation should work for young adults…
I don’t think the players should be paid, they are getting their tuition and room-and-board paid for.
I would rather see the money invested back into the school with better programs, infrastructure, and financial assistance for the students.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
I don’t think the players should be paid, they are getting their tuition and room-and-board paid for.
I would rather see the money invested back into the school with better programs, infrastructure, and financial assistance for the students.[/quote]
So coaches have multi-million dollar deals, shoe endorsements, commercials, etc off the kids they coach. And yet those kids can’t get money from their own likeness in video games or from jersey sales because they get tuition?
That may be a fair deal for the average joe, but many elite players are getting flat out fucked by the Universities and an institution that has them by the balls. Now we’re mad that some kids are finally speaking up about the bullshit?
I can’t buy the “you know what you were getting into argument.” Why have medical care for soldier then? They knew getting a leg blown off may be part of the deal. Tough break sucker.
Some people are making an ass ton of money off college athletics. It’s ok to exploit the kids though because hey you could be paying to go to school. Everyone can make money off a kid but the kid is fair?
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
I don’t think the players should be paid, they are getting their tuition and room-and-board paid for.
I would rather see the money invested back into the school with better programs, infrastructure, and financial assistance for the students.[/quote]
[quote]H factor wrote:
So coaches have multi-million dollar deals [/quote]
It is their job.
[quote]H factor wrote:
, shoe endorsements, commercials, etc off the kids they coach. [/quote]
Really?
[quote]H factor wrote:
And yet those kids can’t get money from their own likeness in video games or from jersey sales because they get tuition? [/quote]
When my local college puts on a play, that cost $5 to attend, should the actors get paid?
Sports is secondary, just because college football makes a lot of money doesn’t change the fact that is an after school activity.
How about the big football HS, should the star students get paid?
[quote]H factor wrote:
That may be a fair deal for the average joe, but many elite players are getting flat out fucked by the Universities and an institution that has them by the balls. [/quote]
And these star athletes move on to make tons of money more often than not.
[quote]H factor wrote:
Now we’re mad that some kids are finally speaking up about the bullshit?
[/quote]
Not at all.
[quote]H factor wrote:
I can’t buy the “you know what you were getting into argument.” Why have medical care for soldier then? They knew getting a leg blown off may be part of the deal. Tough break sucker.
[/quote]
Really?
[quote]H factor wrote:
Some people are making an ass ton of money off college athletics. It’s ok to exploit the kids though because hey you could be paying to go to school. Everyone can make money off a kid but the kid is fair? [/quote]
Giving a student a free education because they’re good at a freakin game is not exploitation in my book.