daltron get the fuck out. Seriously, ruining an awesome thread.
edit: And you realize Beans is a Pats fan, right?
Sigh.
NFL is not baseball ultimate team sports.
Been many, many Steeler fans who said Flaco would never win a ring. Trent Dilfer has more rings then Marino.
That being said GM for jets fucked that team, he could not manage a convenient store much less a salary cap. Busts like Geene and Gholsten fucked them more than anything. Plus sinking more than half your cap in a CB and QB one with ACL injury and the other a “manager” type approach is just bad management.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
This is the issue with Sanchez. If He has to win the game he will never win. He needs an incredible defense and roll player around him. Any team that plays the Jets has to get a lead, stop the run, and force Sanchez to pass the ball on every down. This is how you beat the Jets.
Beat the run?
Not for nothing…Im the only Jet fan (well me and beans LO FUCKING L) that semi-consistently posts on on this thread, and those who know me here know I am / was a staunch Sanchez supported, I desperately wanted him to succeed and I now concede it aint gonna happen.
But a few points if you will…some of it will be a broken record of course.
-
I think there is possibly 2 QBs in the league that may have made that offense more successful, possibly Brady, Manning and when I say successful I mean possibly T W O more wins MAYBE!
-
Lets look at what Sanchez had to deal with, the undermining of the front office by bringing in Tebow…NO QB would like to get pulled when he is getting some semblance of a rhythm going…ex… hey sanchez completed 4 passes in a row HERES an Idea lets bring in Teblow in for a 2 yard run up the MIDDLE!
-
Underwhelming pass and run protection, Clyde Gates, Stephen Hill, Lex Hilliard (who I like), Jason FUCKING Hill, Jeff Cumberland and of course the Hall of Famer Chaz Schillens. There isnt many qbs in the league that would have succeeded with this shit surrounding him. His best player was Shonn Greene who is as mediocre of a back as your gonna get
-
2 years ago he had an equally shitty offensive line and running game yet he still accounted for 36 touchdowns, much more than many other more celebrated qbs that year.
-
His playoff stats are better than you give him credit for, highlighted by the erection inducing playoff win against the pats 194yds 3 tds 0 Int 127 rating.
-
I never said nor will I ever say he is a QB that can win by himself, however if you had surrounded him some modicum of talent you could have been more successful with him.
-
Hes done in NY but I hope he gets another chance elsewhere and succeeds. Never understood why he was so disliked. He wasnt brash, didnt talk shit, and always said the right thing, Hating Rex I get…hating Sanchez, unless you were one of our rivals I never understood.
Oh and I read that some of you guys felt bad for Tebow getting mistreated and not given a fair shot…which is true, they could have done something with this dolt.
But lets not forget what horse face John Elway said, HE (i.e Tebow) had the choice to either go to the Jags or the Jets, he chose the circus of the Jets, he is beloved in Florida he could have that city by the balls, a church would have been erected in his name, but no he really thought he had a better chance to play in NY…fucking please. I know you guys love to hate sanchez, but the JAGS have a fuckstump named BLAINE at the QB last year. Maybe the Jets owner deceived him…well Teblow shame on you, for not going to the place where it was a given that you could have done no wrong.
The Jets are stupid!..Beans?! You here me?!
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
Oh and I read that some of you guys felt bad for Tebow getting mistreated and not given a fair shot…which is true, they could have done something with this dolt.
But lets not forget what horse face John Elway said, HE (i.e Tebow) had the choice to either go to the Jags or the Jets, he chose the circus of the Jets, he is beloved in Florida he could have that city by the balls, a church would have been erected in his name, but no he really thought he had a better chance to play in NY…fucking please. I know you guys love to hate sanchez, but the JAGS have a fuckstump named BLAINE at the QB last year. Maybe the Jets owner deceived him…well Teblow shame on you, for not going to the place where it was a given that you could have done no wrong. [/quote]
I agree you Matty. Tebow chose his path and is paying the consequences. But nonetheless, he was put into a shitty situation in NY. But he isnt the only victim. A portion of Sanchez’s failures comes partially from the front office decisions and coaching fiascos.
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
This is the issue with Sanchez. If He has to win the game he will never win. He needs an incredible defense and roll player around him. Any team that plays the Jets has to get a lead, stop the run, and force Sanchez to pass the ball on every down. This is how you beat the Jets.
Beat the run?
Not for nothing…Im the only Jet fan (well me and beans LO FUCKING L) that semi-consistently posts on on this thread, and those who know me here know I am / was a staunch Sanchez supported, I desperately wanted him to succeed and I now concede it aint gonna happen.
But a few points if you will…some of it will be a broken record of course.
-
I think there is possibly 2 QBs in the league that may have made that offense more successful, possibly Brady, Manning and when I say successful I mean possibly T W O more wins MAYBE!
-
Lets look at what Sanchez had to deal with, the undermining of the front office by bringing in Tebow…NO QB would like to get pulled when he is getting some semblance of a rhythm going…ex… hey sanchez completed 4 passes in a row HERES an Idea lets bring in Teblow in for a 2 yard run up the MIDDLE!
-
Underwhelming pass and run protection, Clyde Gates, Stephen Hill, Lex Hilliard (who I like), Jason FUCKING Hill, Jeff Cumberland and of course the Hall of Famer Chaz Schillens. There isnt many qbs in the league that would have succeeded with this shit surrounding him. His best player was Shonn Greene who is as mediocre of a back as your gonna get
-
2 years ago he had an equally shitty offensive line and running game yet he still accounted for 36 touchdowns, much more than many other more celebrated qbs that year.
-
His playoff stats are better than you give him credit for, highlighted by the erection inducing playoff win against the pats 194yds 3 tds 0 Int 127 rating.
-
I never said nor will I ever say he is a QB that can win by himself, however if you had surrounded him some modicum of talent you could have been more successful with him.
-
Hes done in NY but I hope he gets another chance elsewhere and succeeds. Never understood why he was so disliked. He wasnt brash, didnt talk shit, and always said the right thing, Hating Rex I get…hating Sanchez, unless you were one of our rivals I never understood.
[/quote]
I’ll address your points one by one, if you don’t mind.
-
I don’t know if there are any QBs who could have been more successful in such a limited offense, but that’s beside the point. The point is that the offense was limited by Sanchez’s own deficiencies in many ways. Also, I have a hard time imagining any QB in the NFL who has started the last 4 seasons who would have done WORSE than Sanchez in that offense.
-
While I wholeheartedly agree that the Tebow situation didn’t help the cause at all, the fact is that Sanchez faced adversity and handled it about as poorly as anyone I’ve seen handle adversity the last few seasons. I hate to use Kaepernick as an example since you’re all sick and tired of hearing me pontificate about his many virtues (actually, I LOVE to use him as an example) but the guy faced some legit adversity this year as well, and it didn’t hamper him at all. Making him the starter was not a popular choice in the Bay Area, especially once Smith was healthy. He had as many people calling for the other guy to start as Sanchez did, and with the added pressure of an actual, legitimate QB waiting in the wings and not some fucking mongoloid like Tebow pushing him for playing time. Not only that, this was first year of significant playing time in the NFL, whereas Sanchez by now has been around the block a couple times.
Sure, the media pressure in NY is bigger than it is in the Bay Area, but keep in mind that the Bay Area is QB Land, given who wore #16 and #8 out here, so a QB controversy has much more weight to it here than it does anywhere else since we’ve been through the biggest one ever out here. Also, the media pressure is manufactured bullshit that a mentally-tough athlete should be able to overcome no matter where it’s coming from. It didn’t hamper Namath’s success, nor Eli’s or Jeter’s or Reggie’s or Mantle’s or any of those guys. They were mentally-tough enough to overcome adversity and/or pressure. Sanchez is/was not.
-
Agreed on all counts regarding poor offensive line play. However, he’s not the only QB playing behind a porous offensive line (Jay Cutler played behind an even worse line the last two years) yet he IS the only one turning the ball over at such a high rate. Again, not many would succeed in such circumstances, but there are plenty who have faced similar adversity and not stunk it up quite so bad.
-
An obvious sign that he has regressed significantly, which is an alarming trend in a 4th-year QB taken high in the first round of the draft. Let’s not forget either that Sanchez wasn’t exactly lighting it up in the regular season those two playoff years. In many ways, those teams got into the playoffs in the first place DESPITE Sanchez, not BECAUSE of him.
-
That was two seasons and an eternity ago. It’s clear now that his play at that time was more aberrational than it was the beginning of a growing trend. He played really well (read: mistake-free rather than carry-the-team-on-his-back-and-make-plays-on-his-own well) for a two or three game stretch. It just so happened to occur in the playoffs. Alex Smith had the game of his life against the Saints in the playoffs, but no one who has seen his entire career trajectory, before or since, would argue that that game was or will be a typical performance. Sanchez’s playoff performances were anomalies, not normalities.
-
IF he were surrounded with more talent he MIGHT have done better. How much more talent he needed to be surrounded by remains to be seen, but given just how poorly he’s played the last two years, it’s a safe bet that he would need to be surrounded with MUCH more talent than most starting QBs in the NFL right now.
It’s funny, because Kaepernick played with the same offensive weapons that Alex Smith did last year (in fact, he lost three significant ones that Smith had when Kendall Hunter, Kyle Williams and Mario Manningham all went down with injuries) and yet the offense was FAR more explosive and dynamic with Kaepernick in there than with Smith. The fact is that there are two types of QBs in the NFL: those who are made better by the talent around them, and those who make the talent around them better. The good QBs are the ones who make the talent around them better. The ones who always have the word “if” included in every sentence about them are the ones who don’t make the players around them better. Sanchez is that type of QB: he simply doesn’t make the players around him better. Brady, Manning and now Kaepernick make the players around them better.
- People don’t like Sanchez because A) people who don’t root for USC generally don’t like USC at all and Sanchez is just one more in a long line of former USC QBs who have come into the NFL with tons of hype and ZERO performance to back that hype up (Sanchez, Leinart, Palmer, Marinovich, probably Barkley next, etc), and B) people who don’t root for NY teams generally hate the NY teams and everything associated with them because of all the hype that surrounds them simply by virtue of being in NY.
It is beyond me why the Jets get so much attention. I can’t think of any other team that hasn’t sniffed a Super Bowl title in more than 40 years that gets the attention that the Jets do. Unless you’re a Jets fan, constantly hearing about a team that basically has sucked 9 years out of 10 since the AFL/NFL merger wears thin after a while.
Sanchez has two things stacked up against him in that respect, plus he’s a typical California pretty-boy on top of everything else, which doesn’t endear him to any football fans not living in the Newport Beach area. The deck is simply stacked against him, hence the vitriol directed at him.
And now for something completely different…
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
This is the issue with Sanchez. If He has to win the game he will never win. He needs an incredible defense and roll player around him. Any team that plays the Jets has to get a lead, stop the run, and force Sanchez to pass the ball on every down. This is how you beat the Jets.
[/quote]
Beat the run?
Not for nothing…Im the only Jet fan (well me and beans LO FUCKING L) that semi-consistently posts on on this thread, and those who know me here know I am / was a staunch Sanchez supported, I desperately wanted him to succeed and I now concede it aint gonna happen.
But a few points if you will…some of it will be a broken record of course.
-
I think there is possibly 2 QBs in the league that may have made that offense more successful, possibly Brady, Manning and when I say successful I mean possibly T W O more wins MAYBE!
-
Lets look at what Sanchez had to deal with, the undermining of the front office by bringing in Tebow…NO QB would like to get pulled when he is getting some semblance of a rhythm going…ex… hey sanchez completed 4 passes in a row HERES an Idea lets bring in Teblow in for a 2 yard run up the MIDDLE!
-
Underwhelming pass and run protection, Clyde Gates, Stephen Hill, Lex Hilliard (who I like), Jason FUCKING Hill, Jeff Cumberland and of course the Hall of Famer Chaz Schillens. There isnt many qbs in the league that would have succeeded with this shit surrounding him. His best player was Shonn Greene who is as mediocre of a back as your gonna get
-
2 years ago he had an equally shitty offensive line and running game yet he still accounted for 36 touchdowns, much more than many other more celebrated qbs that year.
-
His playoff stats are better than you give him credit for, highlighted by the erection inducing playoff win against the pats 194yds 3 tds 0 Int 127 rating.
-
I never said nor will I ever say he is a QB that can win by himself, however if you had surrounded him some modicum of talent you could have been more successful with him.
-
Hes done in NY but I hope he gets another chance elsewhere and succeeds. Never understood why he was so disliked. He wasnt brash, didnt talk shit, and always said the right thing, Hating Rex I get…hating Sanchez, unless you were one of our rivals I never understood.
[/quote]
I’ll address your points one by one, if you don’t mind.
-
I don’t know if there are any QBs who could have been more successful in such a limited offense, but that’s beside the point. The point is that the offense was limited by Sanchez’s own deficiencies in many ways. Also, I have a hard time imagining any QB in the NFL who has started the last 4 seasons who would have done WORSE than Sanchez in that offense.
-
While I wholeheartedly agree that the Tebow situation didn’t help the cause at all, the fact is that Sanchez faced adversity and handled it about as poorly as anyone I’ve seen handle adversity the last few seasons. I hate to use Kaepernick as an example since you’re all sick and tired of hearing me pontificate about his many virtues (actually, I LOVE to use him as an example) but the guy faced some legit adversity this year as well, and it didn’t hamper him at all. Making him the starter was not a popular choice in the Bay Area, especially once Smith was healthy. He had as many people calling for the other guy to start as Sanchez did, and with the added pressure of an actual, legitimate QB waiting in the wings and not some fucking mongoloid like Tebow pushing him for playing time. Not only that, this was first year of significant playing time in the NFL, whereas Sanchez by now has been around the block a couple times.
Sure, the media pressure in NY is bigger than it is in the Bay Area, but keep in mind that the Bay Area is QB Land, given who wore #16 and #8 out here, so a QB controversy has much more weight to it here than it does anywhere else since we’ve been through the biggest one ever out here. Also, the media pressure is manufactured bullshit that a mentally-tough athlete should be able to overcome no matter where it’s coming from. It didn’t hamper Namath’s success, nor Eli’s or Jeter’s or Reggie’s or Mantle’s or any of those guys. They were mentally-tough enough to overcome adversity and/or pressure. Sanchez is/was not.
-
Agreed on all counts regarding poor offensive line play. However, he’s not the only QB playing behind a porous offensive line (Jay Cutler played behind an even worse line the last two years) yet he IS the only one turning the ball over at such a high rate. Again, not many would succeed in such circumstances, but there are plenty who have faced similar adversity and not stunk it up quite so bad.
-
An obvious sign that he has regressed significantly, which is an alarming trend in a 4th-year QB taken high in the first round of the draft. Let’s not forget either that Sanchez wasn’t exactly lighting it up in the regular season those two playoff years. In many ways, those teams got into the playoffs in the first place DESPITE Sanchez, not BECAUSE of him.
-
That was two seasons and an eternity ago. It’s clear now that his play at that time was more aberrational than it was the beginning of a growing trend. He played really well (read: mistake-free rather than carry-the-team-on-his-back-and-make-plays-on-his-own well) for a two or three game stretch. It just so happened to occur in the playoffs. Alex Smith had the game of his life against the Saints in the playoffs, but no one who has seen his entire career trajectory, before or since, would argue that that game was or will be a typical performance. Sanchez’s playoff performances were anomalies, not normalities.
-
IF he were surrounded with more talent he MIGHT have done better. How much more talent he needed to be surrounded by remains to be seen, but given just how poorly he’s played the last two years, it’s a safe bet that he would need to be surrounded with MUCH more talent than most starting QBs in the NFL right now.
It’s funny, because Kaepernick played with the same offensive weapons that Alex Smith did last year (in fact, he lost three significant ones that Smith had when Kendall Hunter, Kyle Williams and Mario Manningham all went down with injuries) and yet the offense was FAR more explosive and dynamic with Kaepernick in there than with Smith. The fact is that there are two types of QBs in the NFL: those who are made better by the talent around them, and those who make the talent around them better. The good QBs are the ones who make the talent around them better. The ones who always have the word “if” included in every sentence about them are the ones who don’t make the players around them better. Sanchez is that type of QB: he simply doesn’t make the players around him better. Brady, Manning and now Kaepernick make the players around them better.
- People don’t like Sanchez because A) people who don’t root for USC generally don’t like USC at all and Sanchez is just one more in a long line of former USC QBs who have come into the NFL with tons of hype and ZERO performance to back that hype up (Sanchez, Leinart, Palmer, Marinovich, probably Barkley next, etc), and B) people who don’t root for NY teams generally hate the NY teams and everything associated with them because of all the hype that surrounds them simply by virtue of being in NY.
It is beyond me why the Jets get so much attention. I can’t think of any other team that hasn’t sniffed a Super Bowl title in more than 40 years that gets the attention that the Jets do. Unless you’re a Jets fan, constantly hearing about a team that basically has sucked 9 years out of 10 since the AFL/NFL merger wears thin after a while.
Sanchez has two things stacked up against him in that respect, plus he’s a typical California pretty-boy on top of everything else, which doesn’t endear him to any football fans not living in the Newport Beach area. The deck is simply stacked against him, hence the vitriol directed at him.[/quote]
Why does everything have to come back to Kap?
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Here is what I’m thinking:
- Pats are still building a D for life after Brady, but expect him to be their offense
- Jets had a good draft… They aren’t nearly as bad as people say, paricularly if Sanchize can go back to who he was when they were winning.
[/quote]
No they are worse. As long as they have that ass clown pulling the strings they a 6 -10 season will be a success. Ryan cannot coach offense, he has no control over his players, his on field decisions are beyond idiotic, there is no unity in the locker room, there is no discipline on the team. They will lose and lose hard and often.
[/quote]
I’m not buying that.
They cleaned out a lot of peices of their lockerroom, and players love Rex…
They will be a decent team that could sneak into the playoffs. [/quote]
They will lose.
[quote]farmerson12 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Here is what I’m thinking:
- Pats are still building a D for life after Brady, but expect him to be their offense
- Jets had a good draft… They aren’t nearly as bad as people say, paricularly if Sanchize can go back to who he was when they were winning.
[/quote]
No they are worse. As long as they have that ass clown pulling the strings they a 6 -10 season will be a success. Ryan cannot coach offense, he has no control over his players, his on field decisions are beyond idiotic, there is no unity in the locker room, there is no discipline on the team. They will lose and lose hard and often.
[/quote]
I’m not buying that.
They cleaned out a lot of peices of their lockerroom, and players love Rex…
They will be a decent team that could sneak into the playoffs. [/quote]
As long as Sanchez is the QB and they have no legitimate weapons on offense, they’ll be perpetual cellar-dwellers.[/quote]
I agree. The Jets may go into this coming season with the least amount of talent. [/quote]
I think they have some talent. Definitely a good defense, but no guidance. A poorly coached team is just a bunch of guys running around chasing a ball, it won’t matter haw much talent they have. The Eagles had a ton of talent and could not get it together. The Jets have much less talent than that and will not be able to get it together.
Just the decision making of late is a good example. Prior to letting Tebow go, they had as many QB’s as linemen. I mean really. I know that won’t remain the case, but the bottom line is who ever is taking snaps will have to run for their fucking lives. I don’t see a well trained, disciplined O line materializing out of thin air. I see more butt-fumbles in the future.
In all seriousness Kapernick is gonna have an average maybe slightly above average year. The 49s schedule is favorable, which helps. He’ll have 25-30 combined TDs, like 3,000-3,500 yds passing, and 300-600 yrds rushing. Niners will make the playoffs, but I’m not sold they will win the division. Seattle’s schedule is favorable too. Teams will adjust to Kap this year, same with RG3, same with other “pistol” QBs.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]daltron wrote:
Under what premise?
[/quote]
I think Sanchize is better than last year, and I think people are under rating their D drastically.
Assuming Brady stays healthy they won’t beat the Pats, no. But I’m not going to sit here and crown a champ or call a chump based on paper.
All I’m saying is I don’t buy the narrative they are this horrid abomination of a team everyone likes to call them. [/quote]
The D is the bright spot on the team. The defense was excellent in the first half of the season last year, until they just gave up on the team. I don’t know if they actually gave up, but by the end, it didn’t look like they weren’t trying. It looked like they didn’t even want to be there.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Just look at Sanchez’ face. He has lost his ability to play. It is all in his head now. He needs a big come from behind game on his shoulders to change his ability to play.[/quote]
He needs to go be a backup somewhere. Really, he should go to Denver and shadow Peyton. If he can learn from the best, he may salvage his career.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I long for the days when this thread was a good time with people shooting the shit and busting each other’s balls.
Not a pissing contest or measure of e-penis.
DJ, what happened?[/quote]
DB Cooper
[quote]farmerson12 wrote:
I agree you Matty. Tebow chose his path and is paying the consequences. But nonetheless, he was put into a shitty situation in NY. But he isnt the only victim. A portion of Sanchez’s failures comes partially from the front office decisions and coaching fiascos. [/quote]
That’s one debate I would like to know for certain and put it to rest. Some say he had a choice others say he did not. My understanding is that he did not have a choice. Tebow said he did not have a choice. The problem is that he draws so much emotion that nobody knows what really happened. The anti-Tebow camp says he had a choice, the pro-Tebow camp says he did not. I am inclined to believe Tebow in this case. He’s made it clear he wants to be a starting QB. I have a hard time believing he was given the shot to be a starting QB but chose rather a proposed QB by committee option in the most venomous market in the sport? Who would choose that
I have been in situations at work where I was supposedly given an ‘option’, but the reality was I take the option or pound the unemployment line. I could see a similar circumstance in Tebow’s case.
Whether he chose it or not, he was sold a load of shit. Rex Ryan hated Tebow from the start and was to big a coward chickenshit to just come out a say it. I’d rather somebody tell me they think I suck and they hate me in an honest way, then lie and act like your my buddy and then stab me in the back repeatedly.
Even if Tebow never plays again in the NFL, he’s still better off not being on the Jets. That franchise is a joke.
The real victims are the fans. Every year you want your team to show up and make a run. The Jets create such a chaotic atmosphere that football is an afterthought. It’s not fair to the fans, they deserve better than that. They do pay a lot of money to see them play and they are getting the shittiest deal of them all, because they have a bunch of self-absorbed, idiotic clown steering the ship in to the rocks.
Pat serious question.
If Tebow did NOT have the religious hype would he even be talked about? I mean Vince Young has a winning record and did good for one season in Tenn, but he is dumb as a stump and out of the league.
NO matter how you shake it, buff it or spin it, Tebow is NOT a NFL QB. He has horrible delivery with long stride and he is average speed at best. Period.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I long for the days when this thread was a good time with people shooting the shit and busting each other’s balls.
Not a pissing contest or measure of e-penis.
DJ, what happened?[/quote]
DB Cooper[/quote]
I didn’t know I had that much control.
DB:
I dont necessarily disagree with anything you wrote, however I dont think Kap faced the same “kind” of adversity Sanchez did. The comparison to the Bears offensive line is a good one but Cutler had far better weapons than Sanchez. The idea that the team won in spite of Sanchez is false I would have to go back and will if you really want me to but there were times especially in his second year that thge vaunted Jets D were gving up tons of points because of the ridiculous amount of blitzing that occured and it was because of Sanchez that they won. In his rookie year I would have to agree. You also are really downplaying the lack of offensive talent the Jets had last year not to mention a HORRIBLE OC.
Again I hope Sanchez goes to a team like Arizona, let him sit behind Palmer and get another chance.
Your point about him being a USC QB is interesting, college football is a total non factor in NY so I didn’t realize.
As far as this upcoming yeas goes, I think their D is once again going to be a real strong point…Coples moving to OLB should be interesting. There obviously going to struggle to score but I think Ivory is going to be a stud and Goodson will compliment him well. I can see them being more competitive than people expect kind of like last years Dolphins, I expect 7-9 or possibly 500. Which in the long run isnt a good thing.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I long for the days when this thread was a good time with people shooting the shit and busting each other’s balls.
Not a pissing contest or measure of e-penis.
DJ, what happened?[/quote]
DB Cooper[/quote]
I didn’t know I had that much control.[/quote]
This guy has a tremendous hard on for you.