I went from planning what I thought would be the most simple cycle to date and ended up with the most compounds I’ve ever used at once. I’m only going to be running this for about five, maybe six weeks. I’m planning moderate/low doses and will gradually ramp everything up the further I get into it.
I’m not sure yet how much T3/Clen I’m going to have, so I can’t say exactly if I’m going to do the ‘two on two off’ approach or just run it for the last two or three weeks. Perhaps a one-on, one-off could even work. I’ve read conflicting information about tapering off the T3, so that’s going to require a little more research.
Cycle should look something like this:
Test Prop 75mg/EOD
Tren Ace 75mg/EOD (opposite days) (525mg/wk between the two; may ramp both up to 100mg/EOD)
Winstrol 50mg/ED
Clen- start at 50/60mcg for the first few days; bump it up 20mcg each couple of days up to probably 120mcg. I don’t want to get into the ‘jittery’ territory.
T3 - Going to start at 20/25mg and follow the same protocol as I’m doing for Clen.
Standard tomox. prot. for PCT.
I’m going to be on tour for roughly the last week of this which is going to be really inconvenient, however I don’t have to fly out to CA for the start of it and we won’t be going into Canada so I feel a little more confident traveling with stuff now. For the last week I’m going to do the Prop/Tren inj together/EOD so I don’t have to travel with as many syringes and can rotate less inj. sites.
I feel like this is the first time I’ve really got my diet locked in. I’ve been following my own mix of IF, V-Diet, and some other methods and have been able to lose 13 lbs. and 6.5% bodyfat in the last five weeks while only losing 1 rep off my bench. I’ve been using MAG-10 while fasting and Anaconda for peri-workout; as well as a pretty hardcore fat burner. I know once I hit about 12% bf it’s going to be a lot harder to lose, so I’m hoping this cycle will take me into single-digit territory- even if it’s only 9.9%.
And as always, pics:
Anybody care to confirm or deny the legitimacy of this? It appears there have been a few studies as well as many users ‘personal experiences’ of being on T3 for extended periods of time and ‘recovering’ within two weeks- which would suggest tapering off T3 is not only unnecessary, but wasteful:
"
Like the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis, the thyroid gland is under negative feedback control. When t3 levels go up, TSH secretion is suppressed. This is the mechanism whereby exogenous thyroid hormone suppresses natural thyroid hormone production. There is a difference though between the way anabolic steroids suppress natural testosterone production and the way t3 suppresses the thyroid. With steroids, the longer and heavier the cycle is, the longer your natural testosterone is suppressed. This is not the case with exogenous thyroid hormone.
An early study that looked at thyroid function and recovery under the influence of exogenous thyroid hormone was undertaken by Greer (2). He looked at patients who were misdiagnosed as being hypothyroid and put on thyroid hormone replacement for as long as 30 years. When the medication was withdrawn, their thyroids quickly returned to normal.
Here is a remark about Greer’s classic paper from a later author:
“In 1951, Greer reported the pattern of recovery of thyroid function after stopping suppressive treatment with thyroid hormone in euthyroid [normal] subjects based on sequential measurements of their thyroidal uptake of radioiodine. He observed that after withdrawal of exogenous thyroid therapy, thyroid function, in terms of radioiodine uptake, returned to normal in most subjects within two weeks. He further observed that thyroid function returned as rapidly in those subjects whose glands had been depressed by several years of thyroid medication as it did in those whose gland had been depressed for only a few days” (3)
These results have been subsequently verified in several studies. (3)(4) So contrary to what has been stated in the bodybuilding literature, there is no evidence that long term thyroid supplementation will somehow damage your thyroid gland. "
Interesting study. But my line of thinking would be: T3 is extremely cheap. Wouldn’t it only cost about $5 more to taper off it for a couple weeks? Probably a good investment to be on the same side.
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
Interesting study. But my line of thinking would be: T3 is extremely cheap. Wouldn’t it only cost about $5 more to taper off it for a couple weeks? Probably a good investment to be on the same side.[/quote]
X2. I cant imagine it would hurt anymore to taper, maybe suppress TSH abit longer (benefits of the taper must out-weigh the cons of longer suppression though IMO).
tren ace is usually injected everyday to keep levels stable. a fluctuation of a compound that strong leads to increased sides in most ppl
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
Interesting study. But my line of thinking would be: T3 is extremely cheap. Wouldn’t it only cost about $5 more to taper off it for a couple weeks? Probably a good investment to be on the same side.[/quote]
I believe the idea behind this line of thinking is: If you’re going to be on it, it makes sense to be on it at full capacity the whole time to get the most out of it- instead of the gradual ramp up, steady level, ramp down.
Some of the patients of those studies had been on T3 for DECADES and recovered/had natural production back within weeks after going off. I think the reason people are quick to dismiss this is because they’re so used to the idea of natural test being supressed which leads to shut-down, but T3 is another thing altogether. I guess a comparable analogy would be melatonin. I’ve seen a lot of people say that use of mealtonin every night will not permanently shut-down the bodies ability to create it once supplementation ends.
[quote]beefcakes wrote:
tren ace is usually injected everyday to keep levels stable. a fluctuation of a compound that strong leads to increased sides in most ppl[/quote]
You are going to get run off this board in a hurry if you don’t pipe the fuck down. Keep in mind: You have yet to complete ONE real cycle. You are in no position to be telling anyone here, anything.
I think you have to separate the “ramping up” from the “ramping down” as they serve two different purposes. Regardless of suppression level when you come up, you would want to ramp up to gauge how you react to it. T3 is incredibly powerful in the body and will send you to the moon if your dosage is too high too quick. But aside from the uncomfortable jitters, too much thyroid hormone can deplete your cortisol which can be life threatening.
I can definitely see some benefit in staying on at full dose for as long as you can tolerate it or until you reach your goals once you ramp up though. But at that point, i would probably still ramp down because of the aforementioned price plus risk mitigation, despite how low the risk might be.
^^should havfe said “when you come off” instead of “come up”
Pinning Tren Ace ED is essential, especially considering your running it 1:1 with Test. Moments ago I just completed backloading my next cycle of Test/Tren/Mast into slin pins, takes a few minutes and it will improve your results and reduce sides. Pretty win-win for a few minutes of effort.
I also like to run Adex a little high while cutting, feels exactly the same as running Winstrol, atleast to me lol.
As for T3 I’ve always tapered, 12.5>25>50>25>12.5 or something along those lines. The literature may suggest it isn’t necessary, but there are some accounts of people feeling super lethargic after dropping T3 ‘cold turkey’ from 50mg ED.
Otherwise if you ran that for six weeks, should be a pretty solid cutter.
Best of luck,
-PTD
[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:
Pinning Tren Ace ED is essential, especially considering your running it 1:1 with Test. Moments ago I just completed backloading my next cycle of Test/Tren/Mast into slin pins, takes a few minutes and it will improve your results and reduce sides. Pretty win-win for a few minutes of effort.
I also like to run Adex a little high while cutting, feels exactly the same as running Winstrol, atleast to me lol.
As for T3 I’ve always tapered, 12.5>25>50>25>12.5 or something along those lines. The literature may suggest it isn’t necessary, but there are some accounts of people feeling super lethargic after dropping T3 ‘cold turkey’ from 50mg ED.
Otherwise if you ran that for six weeks, should be a pretty solid cutter.
Best of luck,
-PTD[/quote]
I’m actually probably not going to run a 1:1 ratio because at 1:1 is when I started to experience sides (MILD sides). I’m not sure why I thought that at the time; probably tired. I think I will do 25mg prop/ED and 50mg Tren/ED. That’ll put me at 525mg/wk + 420mg/wk for winstrol. I’m probably going to have to order more T3 as I’m pretty sure I won’t have enough for six weeks. Your T3 dose seems on the low side from what I’ve seen most people use (including first time users). Any reason for that? I’ve never had to pin ED because I’ve always used long-esters in the past so I only rotated two inj. sites: VG and delt. I can see I’m going to have to include quads this time. Does anyone ever use slin pins for quads? I would think if you were lean enough you could get away with it…
I neglected to even mention that I will be running adex. I usually run just a small amount because at .5mg/EOD I started to get weird vision problems. I ran .5mg/E3D last time though and it seemed to be alright. I think I’ll go with your suggestion and run it a little higher so as to retain less water.
The only problem I run into with using slin pins for my quads is the needle tends to bend when I do my upper quad–I think the muscle is denser up there. But I use 30 gauges, so they’re a bit smaller than the 29’ers. Not sure how much difference that makes though. You can straighten them back out and reuse them, but its a little disconcerting. No issues at all with my teardrop–that has become my favorite injection site.
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
The only problem I run into with using slin pins for my quads is the needle tends to bend when I do my upper quad–I think the muscle is denser up there. But I use 30 gauges, so they’re a bit smaller than the 29’ers. Not sure how much difference that makes though. You can straighten them back out and reuse them, but its a little disconcerting. No issues at all with my teardrop–that has become my favorite injection site.[/quote]
I’ve bent a 29g on the Lateralis injection site -.- I fear that site just doesn’t work with slin pins
My muscles must suck then but i do lateralis injections with a slin pin but mine are 28g 1/2 inch
My stuff showed up today and wouldn’t you know it: No Tren and only half the prop I ordered. So that just about fucks EVERYTHING. Still waiting to hear back on the resolution. Eitherway it’s a very disappointing setback. I had no choice and still had to start today with what I had. I have someone at the gym who might be able to get some Tren for me, but no guarantees and it doesn’t sound very promising.
Saving the T3/Clen for tomorrow.
Oh and that reminds me,does anyone read Chinese because I don’t know what this Clen is dosed at. WTF.
after some Googling, I found they are 40mcg tabs. Sweet.
Clen is a hell of a drug. I’m up to 120mcg/day- 80 in the morning 40 before the gym. It doesn’t make me jittery, but it does make me shakey as fuck. I’ve just been running Prop at 150mg/EOD because my other shit still hasn’t gotten here yet. Should be here by the end of the week though. Winny is at 60mg/day.
I don’t experience any ‘pain’ issues when injecting the prop. I don’t know if the stuff I have sucks ass or what. I know it’s not near as thick and oily as the other test I’ve run. Looks very much like water.
Also, I’m never using insulin pins again. It’s fucking stupid. I get about halfway through the injection and can’t get the rest of the test through. No matter how had I press down on the plunger. My fucking hand gives out and I give up after about five minutes. Needle usually comes out bent. Much much better to just do it with 25g 3ml syringe.
Strength is up, fat is down.
[quote]Toby Queef wrote:
I don’t experience any ‘pain’ issues when injecting the prop. I don’t know if the stuff I have sucks ass or what. I know it’s not near as thick and oily as the other test I’ve run. Looks very much like water.
[/quote]
I also don’t have prop pain when injecting in standard IM sites. Mine is 100mg/mL and is also very thin, especially compared to the 300mg/mL enanthate (which is the only other oil I’ve ever used).
[quote]Toby Queef wrote:
Also, I’m never using insulin pins again. It’s fucking stupid. I get about halfway through the injection and can’t get the rest of the test through. No matter how had I press down on the plunger. My fucking hand gives out and I give up after about five minutes. Needle usually comes out bent. Much much better to just do it with 25g 3ml syringe.
[/quote]
I seriously don’t understand how this is happening. Because I was an idiot and bought 0.5cc pins to inject 0.7cc of oil, I’ve been sticking myself with 2 29g slin pins a day for the last 4 weeks - not a single bent pin and not a single issue with the plunger getting stuck. The 29g’s are super easy to bend, is it possible you’re bending them while sitting there trying to push the oil? Maybe my quads and delts just suck at being dense.
Could the plunger getting stuck just be a function of the volume of oil? How much are you trying to push in one site? I’m getting some 1cc pins and more prop, so I will be upping my dose to 1cc at a single site with a 1/2" 29g pin. Will be curious to see if I start running into problems.
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
No issues at all with my teardrop–that has become my favorite injection site.[/quote]
I tried this after reading your post - very painful knot formed about 2 hours after the injection and lasted another 18 hours or so. Maybe it was the “prop pain” people talk about? It’s weird because I don’t get it at all in my vastus lateralis.
[quote]hockeysledder wrote:
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
No issues at all with my teardrop–that has become my favorite injection site.[/quote]
I tried this after reading your post - very painful knot formed about 2 hours after the injection and lasted another 18 hours or so. Maybe it was the “prop pain” people talk about? It’s weird because I don’t get it at all in my vastus lateralis.[/quote]
Very weird. Not sure what the issue is there, but I suspect you just didn’t get it in deep enough and it allowed the oil to pool subcutaneously. Are you pretty lean there? I can barely get a skinfold measurement on mine, so they are much leaner than the rest of my body.
They were 28g 1 ml slin pins. Never, ever again. Also- should be noted NEVER take clen BEFORE your injections. Holy fuck. My hands were shaking like a mother fucker. In hindsight, I probably should have just waited.
Also even with 4g of Taurine now I’m still having some cramps. My quads are cramping like crazy right now going up and down stairs. And my jaw just locked up so bad it almost put me in tears.
Clen is a hell of a drug.