The ad copy for MAG-10 includes:
"Covers all the anabolic bases, achieving optimal muscle-mass gains, without estrogen or DHT side effects. Male pattern baldness is caused by DHT. Earlier in the thread, it was mentioned that you could lose hair with MAG-10 if predisposed to male pattern baldness. Which is true?
Can MAG-10 be taken with food?
it would be damn nice if they came out with an injectable version of MAG-10. ya know, why couldn’t they ?? you can buy insulin without a perscription. just seems weird you can’t buy supplements that are injectable. heck, i’d do it if the stuff as it is, if it was sterile, i bet i’d burn like hell !!!
I just completed my MAG-10 experience. Working in research, I have a DEXA in the office that we use for body comp. After two weeks of training, drinking 2 doses the first day (frontloading) and 1.5 caps thereafter, I gained 7 pounds, but also 0.9% body fat (lean mass went up 749.2 grams and fat mass wwent up 866.6 grams. I did not measure hydration status (can do so by BIA technology), so I cannot say how much of my weight change is water. Minor change in BMD and BMC. As a RD and knowing what to do, i ate just about the right amount and trained with good intensity and strict form. In terms of strength changes, nothing earth shattering, but better on leg day than prior (better endurance too). I am unsure if I had real benefit, so no conclusions yet by me on “efficacy” of MAG-10. It is probably worth one or two go arounds if you can afford it.
Razor, there’s no contradiction – but your
assumption that baldness is caused simply
and only by DHT isn’t correct.
DHT is an unusual culprit because it
can be metabolized to 5alpha-androstanediol
which is implicated in hairloss. Other
androgens that don’t metabolize to this
compound are therefore milder, but it’s
not the case, generally, that they have
absolutely zero effect.
So both these things are correct: MAG-10
does not have DHT side effects (does not
yield DHT or this metabolite of DHT), and
MAG-10 is mild on the hair. And it’s incorrect
to say that it has zero effect on the hair
due to no DHT side effects. An effect is
there (it has to be assumed: no one has
noticed it yet) for those predisposed to
MPB but clearly not a strong effect.
Doug, from the unfortunate gain in fat
mass, I’d certainly think calories were
appropriate, but was protein intake around
day 400 grams per day? (Saying that it
was correct because you’re an R.D. sort
of has one thinking it may have been
less than this amount.)
Doug,
Thanks for the feedback on your mag10 experience and thanks also to the moderator for allowing it to be posted. I did a two week cycle @ 2 servings per day and noticed essentially the same results as you (maybe a bit less). Also, didn’t you just come off a short layoff as the result of an injury? I actually tried it at the end of last year after making exceptional gains all year which stalled out around October. Since that time I’ve maintained my strength/size/conditioning but have not made any additional advancements (i.e Mag10 did not push me past the platuea)
Oddly, I think I may have gotten more “results” from Androsol, but then again I was this was in the middle of my gaining stage during the middle of 2001.
OK, this stuff is definitely doing some major good work. I’m at the end of day four, and my arms are already up 1/2 an in., my neck is up almost 3/4 in., and my thighs are up almost 3/4 in. each; unfortunately, my waist is also up about 3/4 in. as well. C’est la vie. I’ll do get weight and body fat measured on Sunday. I did the double dose on day one, and then 2 teaspoons/day in divided doses. The workouts were the 2-a-days from the Growth Surge, plus one or two extra lifts each time – I could hardly move this morning, but it will be worth it to get h-u-g-e (or as close as I can get). Thumbs up to Biotest for a really kick-ass product.
Chip to Smitty:
Smitty, do not worry at all. I wrote about my 1st 2-week cycle of Mag-10 previously in the old thread. To summarize I gained 14lbs in 12 days with no bodyfat increases. I work 11-12 hours a day as well so I only worked-out once a day (2 days on/1 day off) and I even ate less than optimally.
Now, let me share the results of the next 2 weeks while I took Tribex and M, two more outstanding products. To start, let me say that I retained 8lbs while lowering bodyfat and getting a ‘drier’ look. THis is amazing!!! In four weeks I was able to put on 8 solid pounds of muscle and lower my bodyfat by 3 percentage points. And I look good, not bloated, no acne, no discernable hair loos, no problem!
My training was still as heavy as during the mag-10 cycle but I did a rep or two less so as to allow my entire body to recover and prepare for the next 2-week mag-10 cycle which I will start this evening. THis time around I will be actually going on a stricter diet. Less carbs (fluctuate between 200-250 grams/day) and more protien (between 300-350 gm/day)and no more than 65 gm/day of fat. I am hoping to gain another 7-10 lbs of solid beef and I’m pretty confident that I can do this.
I think that as long as you train really hard and eat a ‘decent’ diet, you will see incredible results with these products. Many thanks to the great folks at T-mag again for cutting edge products and info. I sure do appreciate it.
Keep working. You’ll get there!
Chip
Yes, I am coming off an injury (level 2 sprain of the ligaments on the top of the foot that limited my range of motion and side-to-side movements). I started MAG-10 once I was able to squat and do leg presses without major pain or limitation in movement (pain did come later though:-(, but Vioxx helps). You are correct that “saying I am an RD” may of not been the smartest thing in this forum, BUT if you have read my writings on T-mag over the past year+ and in the magazines (Muscle & Fiction, Muscular Development, MMI, etc.) you would know that I am not the typical “protein kills” kind of guy. The same holds true in my scientific pubs, of which I have published data on higher protein intakes and renal function, but I digree. My protein intake was not 400 grams, but rather on the order of 2-4 grams/kg (depending upon the day and my appetite). I would try MAG-10 again, but would perhaps change the intensity of my weight lifting sessions and add cardio (I did none) of 2-3x/week of 30-40 minutes stairs or bike.
someone asked on here about if it’s really necessary to hold mag-10 under your tounge. I say a definite YES !.. For this reason: Think of chewing tabacco and dip (snuff). if you’ve never done it before, take you a big ol’ chunck of it and stick it in your mouth. When you start to get that big ass headache sick feeling, and knowing you didn’t swallow any of it, then you know the only way it’s affecting you is through your “BLOODSTREAM” !!.. yep, the ol’ subligual version of nicotine is just as addictive as cigarettes… i know it can be hard to believe in the power of sublingal distribution into the bloodstream, but the tabaco industry has proven without a doubt, that it works. so, yes, hold that mag-10 under your tounge. I hold it for more than 30 seconds, as long as i can stand it.
Doug, yes, by all means I know from you’re
writings that you’re very knowledgeable
and informed, and by NO means the typical R.D., but still, I was getting
the impression that you didn’t follow the MAG-10 recommendations on protein intake.
And you didn’t!
Assuming as a guess you may be around 200
lb LBM or less, you took in 180 grams or
less on days where you felt like less protein,
instead of the 400 or slighly more grams
you should have taken in every day.
Yet your caloric intake was so high as to
put on about 2 lb fat per week, which is
very excessive. So you took in too much carbs or too much fat or both, and nowhere near
enough protein. Your results are what
are to be expected from this sort of diet.
Please trust me because this is something I’m quite sure of: this quite adversely affected your results. In other words, you didn’t at all evaluate the protocol I recommend, but instead evaluated one I warn seriously against. No wonder it was not as good as should be expected.
I know that 400 g/day must from your
extensive experience, in different situations,
sound pointlessly excessive. However, this is a different situation.
Let’s say you don’t trust my experience in brief alternating cycles with relatively high dose androgens. OK! Let’s look at it just in principle.
The body can (well, you have to trust my experience in this because I doubt you’ll find it in a book) gain 1 lb LBM per day or even somewhat more at maximum growth rate.
That requires synthesis of about 100 grams per day of new protein.
I think you’ll agree that if training as hard
as recommended with MAG-10, approximately
200 grams per day of protein (you might say slightly less, but not much) would be required simply for an athlete maintaining or gaining only very slowly, a few pounds per YEAR let’s say.
Now, if feed conversion were 100% which it isn’t, he’d need at least 300 grams to achieve
maximum growth rate.
More realisitically, feed conversion efficiency may be no better than 50%, so he needs an increased intake of 200 grams to be able to build those 100 grams of new protein.
So, he needs 400 grams per day.
Or if you don’t believe that theory, then trust observation… it’s been observed very very many times that such protein intake is necessary for maximum rate gains.
You ate too little protein, and too much carbs and/or fat. That’s why your results were not as good as should be expected with MAG-10.
I wrote in an earlier thread about my excellent results with Mag-10 (10+ pounds of muscle in two weeks and almost no fat gain with acne as the only side effect). I’ve also posted to let you guys know that I think M (and, to a lesser extent, Methoxy-7) are great products and I’ve kept all my muscle agins and even added some more on M (this is great because I’m 42 with 30 years of lifting behind me and no real gains, despite trying lots of different supplements and exercise programs, for about three years). Anyway, I love my M! I think this is a must have for anyone over 30 or so! M, for me, seems to have really delivered what lots of other supplements (including, for me at least, Tribex 500) have promised but not delivered. Most testosterone boosters on the market seem more like “hard-on fuel”. In other words, most of these products deliver erections (probably through increased blood flow) but not other testosterone results. M really does put me in an “anabolic state”. Also, I’ve tried Vitex (just the herb) a while back and it did nothing for me. So the extra ingrediants in M really do seem to make a SIGNIFICANT difference. I don’t know if this stuff is any good for the youngsters who already have lots of T and low E (other than coming off a cycle) but it’s a “miracle” supplement for us old guys. Bill, have you guys ever thought of running an ad campaign for M as an alternative to mild testosterone replacement therapy for people in their 30s to 50s? Would this get you guys in trouble with the FDA? What is your honest opinion about long term use of M? Will I develop a tolerence and then be left with an estrogen “rebound” when I quit? Am I risking serious side effects? I was thinking of using it for at least the next three months.
Anyway, I had an extra bottle of Mag-10 from my cycle and I can’t do it for a few months because I’m very busy now (I do VC work) and don’t want any acne so I gave it to my younger brother (he’s 37). He’s almsot finished his cycle (1 dose a day) and he’s also seen great results. As of yesterday he was up more than 7 pounds and didn’t think he’d gained any fat. Craig, my brother, has a similar background to me. He was a great athlete all through high school and college and has lifted ever since with little gain during the last year. Craig used steroids once (I never have) but that was 15 years ago. The odd thing is, he also got acne (it seems like this is unusual from other posts) and he also has NEVER had acne before (I went through an acne stage in my teens and early 20s but he always had great skin). So, Mag-10 really does work. I think our gains would have been the same on even a pretty heavy two week cycle of injectables (I base this on what I’ve seen from working out with juiceheads all these years). Does it seem like older people (35+) do better on Mag-10? Do people who use steroids regularly get the same kinds of results (I’d assume they wouldn’t)?
Hey Chip, thanks alot…this is encouraging news, hopefully my results will be as good as yours. Thanks again…
Podge, it’s that sort of argument that’s
why the recommendation is on the current labels even though I’m convinced it can make no practical difference.
It may make a difference in terms of placebo effect (which can be a good thing!) if one believes in it though. However, MAG-10’s
effective enough in real terms that adding
some possible placebo effect (the mind believing more in the product and thus achieving more results) is not something
it needs.
I don’t believe the argument you make can
be actually valid, in terms of blood levels,
for two reasons:
-
Sublingual absorption of steroids is
far inferior to that of nicotine, -
Useful dose of androgens is higher
than nicotine, -
Nicotine is active immediately on
absorption, whereas 4-AD-EC and A1-E
have ester groups which increase duration
of action, but also delay onset of action.
So there’s no way to get an immediate
“rush” from sublingual absorption (except
psychologically). It would
take time for a substantial percentage
of what’s absorbed sublingually to be
activated.
I don’t see how sublingual absorption
could be more than a few milligrams if
that. In other words, no more than 1% of
the dose, if that.
Question for Bill Roberts - I’m going to stay on Mag-10 for 1 month. I’ll take a single dosage every other day 30 minutes before working out. My question is: I want to use M and Tribex too, Should they be used on my “off” days or my work out days (along with the Mag-10)?
One other thing I think deserves mention is Dougs use of Vioxx while on the cycle. I don’t know if there is any research done on this or not, but I occassionally take Vioxx or Celebrex for arthritis. EVERY single time I’ve ever taken either one of these drugs I end up losing a significant amount of muscle within a few days (at least 2-3 lbs within a 5 day period) and with no other changes in diet and training. Perhaps one needs to avoid this class of drugs for maximum gains?
Kelly, your results are certainly persuasive in your own case. I don’t know whether it’s generally true or not with regards to weight training results. Certainly an interesting and
important matter. Does anyone else have any observations on this?
Delfuego- Sounds like you need to read the articles Chris mentioned in the original post. Plenty of basic info like that there. Your plan is not so good.
I have already posted to say I was disappointed with the results while on MAG 10 (although it was only one per day and I have since reordered two bottles for another cycle in FEB)
Since I have come off MAG 10 my strength has rocketed although while on the cycle it was static. I have not touched creatine for 1 month so I can only presume MAG 10 is responnsible.
FYI, Narrow Grip bench has gone from 308 fr 5 to 308 for 9, and max of 352 has gone to 375.
Please advise if you think this must be MAG10, and any reason why I should have this increase after I have finished the cycle.
thank you.
Keith