New Look at Building and Cutting?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
1

Like many others, ive been training for quite a while now, with mediocre results at best. At first, I reasoned that my metabolism was too fast, and thats why I couldn’t pack on muscle, but I came to the realization that the reason I hadn’t made any major changes, was that my performance improvements were also less than spectacular.

All my hard effort was not entirely wasted though, as I now have a great base to build upon(I have good form, can handle larger workloads, and recover fairly fast.) Also, i can gain strength fairly easily still.

So I decided to change my way of training entirely. Instead of working muscles and training to increase size or decrease fat, i now train for performance.

My “theory” is that if your able to lift more weight, or more reps, or both, these improvements will carry over to physique improvements.

Here are some of the key points that I realized from my mistakes over the years:

1)The main aim should always be to improve strength. Being able to lift heavier weights will greatly increase the amount of work done in a workout.

2)Forget about high reps for endurance, and traditional type cardio, like treadmill jogging, or cycling.

3)Unless your workout is aimed at max strength, keep the rest breaks as short as possible.

4)NEVER base the effectiveness of a workout on how you feel. (PERFORMANCE IS THE GOAL) no burnout sets, or anything similar.

5)Usually less is more. Shorter workouts, and shorter cycles lead to better gains.

6)Also, dont change your diet up too much. I think this is one of the things that really has held me back. Ive never tried any drastic diets, but im always trying little things to bulk or cut, but i think they end up holding back performance in the long run. Now I try to eat healthy, but I eat knowing that Im gonna need a crap load of energy to get through my next workout.

Those are the things that I picked up, besides the basics.

So all this has led me to the current plan im using. Ive been following it for a little over a month now, and although its a bit early, I definately see that Im building muscle, and possibly losing fat at the same time, and feel much better as well.

The plan has two phases, each lasting approximately 2 weeks.

The first phase is westside, and the goals of this phase are to increase max strength.

The second phase is EDT, and the goals are to increase work capacity, cardio power/endurance as well as muscular endurance.

I simply alternate between phase 1 and 2 every two weeks or so. It seems like two weeks might not be long enough for each phase, and maybe it would be better to work on both phases at the same time, but to me each phase is a nice refresher from the previous one.

My numbers are still nothing to brag about, at the end of the last strength cycle I deadlifted 315, and db snatched 100lbs at a BW of about 178.

For EDT, I was able to deadlift 225 60 times in 15 minutes, and I db hang snatched 75 lbs, 55 times per hand in 15 minutes.

My goals are to Deaflift 400lbs, DB snatch 120lbs, deadlift 300 60x, and db snatch 100lbs 45x. I feel if these goals are met, my physique should see similar improvements, we’ll see.

Do you guys think this way of training will lead to a better body, or are there some major pitfalls with this philosophy?

2

Training for strength is a good thing.

I’d give the westside more then two weeks at a time and specifically you should try westside for skinny bastards as traditional westside is designed for more experienced lifters.

I’m not an expert on EDT but I think that is more for bodybuilding rather then gaining strength.

3

Yes, there are no strength improvements in EDT, its strictly conditioning and RE work. Im not an athlete, but I figure to look like an athlete, I should train like one.

Im not following Westside exactly, but am doing a 1rm for deadlift and snatch. It doesn’t take much for me to improve on strength, since im not very advanced, so during the westside phase, i keep the volume very low, exercises to a minimum and do some sets of 2-5 with 85-90% or so.

So far what I really like about the plan, is that improvements in max strength, make me able to do more during EDT, and improvements in EDT, are seeming to help me with my max strength.

4

I think you’ve got your head on straight! Good bullet points.

5

[quote]dankid wrote:
Like many others, ive been training for quite a while now, with mediocre results at best. At first, I reasoned that my metabolism was too fast, and thats why I couldn’t pack on muscle, but I came to the realization that the reason I hadn’t made any major changes, was that my performance improvements were also less than spectacular. All my hard effort was not entirely wasted though, as I now have a great base to build upon(I have good form, can handle larger workloads, and recover fairly fast.) Also, i can gain strength fairly easily still.

So I decided to change my way of training entirely. Instead of working muscles and training to increase size or decrease fat, i now train for performance.

My “theory” is that if your able to lift more weight, or more reps, or both, these improvements will carry over to physique improvements.
[/quote]

The conclusions that you have come to are good. My only concern is, why on earth would someone not have understood those things be begin with?

That’s not a knock at you. It’s more of a problem that I see with the over complication of building muscle these days. People have become so bombarded with details that they completely miss the heart of the issue.

This may or may not be appropriate or accurate for that matter. Lots of big strong guys do traditional cardio.

Once again, if you know what you are doing, then changing your diet up regularly can be beneficial (think carb cycling). But I do agree that simply focusing on eating healthy and enough will bring results.

[quote]
Those are the things that I picked up, besides the basics.

So all this has led me to the current plan im using. Ive been following it for a little over a month now, and although its a bit early, I definately see that Im building muscle, and possibly losing fat at the same time, and feel much better as well.

The plan has two phases, each lasting approximately 2 weeks.

The first phase is westside, and the goals of this phase are to increase max strength.

The second phase is EDT, and the goals are to increase work capacity, cardio power/endurance as well as muscular endurance.

I simply alternate between phase 1 and 2 every two weeks or so. It seems like two weeks might not be long enough for each phase, and maybe it would be better to work on both phases at the same time, but to me each phase is a nice refresher from the previous one.

My numbers are still nothing to brag about, at the end of the last strength cycle I deadlifted 315, and db snatched 100lbs at a BW of about 178.

For EDT, I was able to deadlift 225 60 times in 15 minutes, and I db hang snatched 75 lbs, 55 times per hand in 15 minutes.

My goals are to Deaflift 400lbs, DB snatch 120lbs, deadlift 300 60x, and db snatch 100lbs 45x. I feel if these goals are met, my physique should see similar improvements, we’ll see.

Do you guys think this way of training will lead to a better body, or are there some major pitfalls with this philosophy?[/quote]

I guess I’m just not sure what your line of thinking was in coming up with this program. You seemed to have realized that increased strength + enough good food = increased muscle mass. Yet you take that information and make an overcomplicated program that attempts to combine two already good programs. Why?

Why not just follow Westside For Skinny Bastards if you think that’s a good program and eat enough good quality food. Or, if you really like EDT, just follow EDT and work on getting progressively stronger there.

Trying to combine programs almost never winds up with the trainee getting the best of both worlds. But usually with them getting far inferior results than they would have got from just following one or the other.

That’s my two cents anyway.

6

[quote]dankid wrote:

6)Also, dont change your diet up too much. I think this is one of the things that really has held me back. Ive never tried any drastic diets, but im always trying little things to bulk or cut, but i think they end up holding back performance in the long run. Now I try to eat healthy, but I eat knowing that Im gonna need a crap load of energy to get through my next workout.[/quote]

This is the best quote in a long time. Now, take your own advice and pick a WORKOUT and stick with it for a year. Good post.

-Sab

7

[quote]dankid wrote:

Do you guys think this way of training will lead to a better body, or are there some major pitfalls with this philosophy?[/quote]

  1. The fact that your thoughts went to inadequate training instead of inadequate diet as the limiting factor for your gains tells me that you don’t realise the importance of this element. If you don’t eat enough your training philosophy will be irrelevant.

  2. If you train with the right intensity while eating enough I have noticed that your performance increases as a side effect, even if you train like a bodybuilder.

8

I am really interested to see what kind of results you get. We are about the same size, within a few pounds, so I guess it would be easier to apply to me, at least mentally.

I like EDT for about a month with the fourth week seeing less gains in some pairings. I have thought about alternating EDT with something on a monthly basis and was considering a strength program. So I am really interested. But a question.

Why did you pick 2 weeks rather than 4 or 6?

9

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

I guess I’m just not sure what your line of thinking was in coming up with this program. You seemed to have realized that increased strength + enough good food = increased muscle mass. Yet you take that information and make an overcomplicated program that attempts to combine two already good programs. Why?

Why not just follow Westside For Skinny Bastards if you think that’s a good program and eat enough good quality food. Or, if you really like EDT, just follow EDT and work on getting progressively stronger there.

Trying to combine programs almost never winds up with the trainee getting the best of both worlds. But usually with them getting far inferior results than they would have got from just following one or the other.

That’s my two cents anyway.[/quote]

Well my line of thinking wasn’t just increase strength + food, its more like lift more weight in the same or less amount of time. Thus increasing strength, volume, or decreasing rest will lead to adaptations.

I understand the downfall with including both types of training in one, but really my program started with EDT because I really like the training philosophy. Ive been doing EDT for 6-9 months, but there are a few reasons why i decided to cycle it. Its pretty hard to make strength gains on EDT, because the volume is so high, and the rest breaks are so short. Also, the workouts are freaking killer, and thats why i decided to get a cycle going. It seems to be working now, but as i get more advanced and my strength starts to stagnate, i’ll probably have to put more emphasis on westside, and follow it for longer periods of time. At first I thought the intensity in EDT was too low, but after reading Zatsiorsky and how majority of weightlifters spent the majority of time in the 75% 1rm zone, i decided to leave EDT how it was. Also, a lot of people may suggest a more periodized approach, focusing on hypertrophy and muscular endurance first, and then progressing to a max strength phase. I feel this overcomplicates things since im not an athlete, and do not need to reach peak strength at a certain time. Also, i feel more work, and thus greater performance can be achieved by varying the intensity/volume through the two training styles. I will definately take that concern to heart, and can see my self in the future, just focusing on strength, and following a traditional westside routine.

As for the reason I chose 2 weeks, instead of 4 weeks.

Well, I did a lot of reading on detraining and delayed transformation, and kinda had to come up with a guess as to how long each cycle would be. I dont exactly stick to a set amount of workouts in each cycle. Instead I base it off how im feeling. It just so happens that by the end of the second week, im feeling I need to change. Like my diet, im trying to rely less on a set program for my training. I still follow all the principals, but change things based on my needs. Toward the end of my EDT cycle, i’ll cut down on exercises, in order to put more energy into reaching a PR in my main lifts. This also acts as recovery so that im fresh and ready to start westside the next week. I didn’t decide on this program overnite. My training in the past year or so, has been mainly EDT, with some sporatic workouts for strength. Thats where i decided a more organized approach was needed.

Also, this reasoning goes back to my less is more principal. Sure I may be able to milk some more strength gains by continuing my strength phase for twice as long, but then that would require me to take some time off to recover, and by the time I got back to EDT my adaptations would be lost.

Thanks for the support and concerns guys, I will definately consider them as this program progresses.

Im gonna try to stick with this till at least summer though, and see what the results are.

10

Good post. You have noticed what works well for you, and are applying it in a structured manner. Everyone is different, and i applaud your approach to tailor your own specific needs. Id say if you like your progress, like the way you feel, and are happy… then you have found what a lot of people don’t.

I got really damn skinny last year, too much running. I thought i was a “hard-gainer”. It just took some solid research on diet and training here on T-Nation, and my own observations about myself. Ive maid steady progress thus far.

I am thinking about cycling strength and more EDT like routines. Im currently doing Joel Marions new periodized split. Which comes as a welcome after doing a lot of full body routines. A good split feels good right now, and im feeling stronger every day. I guess what it comes down to is keeping your body guessing. Not letting it adapt to anything, and you’ll consistently grow.

Slowly adding in more calories every week has also allowed me to eat more to facilitate training. I mainly use Berardi’s timing approaches to dieting. And i am almost always 100% clean eating (very rare cheats)

11

[quote]dankid wrote:
<<< 4)NEVER base the effectiveness of a workout on how you feel. (PERFORMANCE IS THE GOAL) no burnout sets, or anything similar. >>>[/quote]

This may not be as conclusive as you think on it’s face.

12

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

This may not be as conclusive as you think on it’s face.[/quote]

I dont understand what your trying to say.

13

[quote]dankid wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:

This may not be as conclusive as you think on it’s face.

I dont understand what your trying to say.[/quote]

I just mean depending on how you’re defining this I absolutely can tell the effectiveness of a workout by how I feel. If performance means moving more weight and more weight moves then that objective measure is all that matters assuming that’s your primary goal. However learning to intimately feel the muscles working is, in my opinion essential (mind muscle connection) if serious size is the eventual goal. If I just overcomplicated this for you, I apologize, I wasn’t trying to.

14

You dind’t overcomplicate it, but I do disagree. There are too many factors that go into how you feel. Its just not as good a method for gauging effectiveness.

15

[quote]dankid wrote:
You dind’t overcomplicate it, but I do disagree. There are too many factors that go into how you feel. Its just not as good a method for gauging effectiveness.[/quote]

Then you have no fuckin’ clue what Tiri meant when he said “mind-muscle connection”.

16

I came to similar conclusions to you. Lots of wasted effort, and overcomplicated goals. I was doing EDT/3-5 method for about 6 weeks apiece. I suggest that you get hold of ‘Muscle Logic’ which is the EDT book, it’s cheap and good. In it, Charles Staley suggests that you do EDT until you fuck up and don’t get 50 reps (for example) which might take 6-8 weeks maybe, then you switch things up and do 3-5 method.

3-5 method= 3 to 5 sets of 3 to 5 exercises with 3 to 5 minutes rest between sets.

But i agree that 2 week cycles would be, for me at least, too short to see an adaptation. 1 other thing i learned is not to switch up programs too regularly, as it messes upcontinuity, making your results unmeasurable.

17

[quote]dankid wrote:
You dind’t overcomplicate it, but I do disagree. There are too many factors that go into how you feel. Its just not as good a method for gauging effectiveness.[/quote]

So up until a month ago you only made minimal progress yet you feel that you are in a place to tell others that they are wrong.

Of course you’re entitled to your opinion, but my opinion is that you should add:

  1. Listen to others who have achieved more than you, you might learn something.
18

[quote]IQ wrote:
dankid wrote:
You dind’t overcomplicate it, but I do disagree. There are too many factors that go into how you feel. Its just not as good a method for gauging effectiveness.

So up until a month ago you only made minimal progress yet you feel that you are in a place to tell others that they are wrong.

Of course you’re entitled to your opinion, but my opinion is that you should add:

  1. Listen to others who have achieved more than you, you might learn something.[/quote]

I guess you could say that, but then in that case we should listen to all pro bodybuilders who are juicing, cause theyve made better results than most.

Im making these claims based on the fact that Ive spent years doing things the way these supposed “experts” have done them, and getting horrible results. A guy who has good genetics, and gets results regardless of what he does is what has set back the information so much. Natural lifters who dont get big or strong easy, have to train smarter than this lifter.

Look everyone is different, has different goals, and different genetics. Im just saying what is a better way of focusing your goals, and monitoring progress for the average person. Anyone that knows anything about sport psychology knows that performance, and process goals are better than outcome goals. Its easier to train for them, and easier to measure results.

Ive seen too many people who get so caught up in the fact that they want to build muscle, but forget the basica principals. Your body isn’t gonna grow, if you dont give it a reason too. You gotta get stronger. Its easy to go to the gym, and do a tough workout week after week, that has no progression. Then after eight weeks you hop on the scale and see no results.

The only thing you can blame is diet. I also dont think diet is as important as people on here claim it to be.

But if your training for strength, and keeping a log, theres no way that 8 weeks will pass without you making progress. Also, then your not training based on how you feel, your training based on performance.

19

[quote]dankid wrote:
I guess you could say that, but then in that case we should listen to all pro bodybuilders who are juicing, cause theyve made better results than most.

Im making these claims based on the fact that Ive spent years doing things the way these supposed “experts” have done them, and getting horrible results. A guy who has good genetics, and gets results regardless of what he does is what has set back the information so much. Natural lifters who dont get big or strong easy, have to train smarter than this lifter.

Look everyone is different, has different goals, and different genetics. Im just saying what is a better way of focusing your goals, and monitoring progress for the average person. Anyone that knows anything about sport psychology knows that performance, and process goals are better than outcome goals. Its easier to train for them, and easier to measure results.

Ive seen too many people who get so caught up in the fact that they want to build muscle, but forget the basica principals. Your body isn’t gonna grow, if you dont give it a reason too. You gotta get stronger. Its easy to go to the gym, and do a tough workout week after week, that has no progression. Then after eight weeks you hop on the scale and see no results. The only thing you can blame is diet. I also dont think diet is as important as people on here claim it to be.

But if your training for strength, and keeping a log, theres no way that 8 weeks will pass without you making progress. Also, then your not training based on how you feel, your training based on performance. [/quote]

If you are training for size you measure your progress based on whether you are gaining size or not, simple.

After reading your post you have confirmed what I suspected after reading your original post.

You still have a lot to learn.

20

[quote]dankid wrote:

I guess you could say that, but then in that case we should listen to all pro bodybuilders who are juicing, cause theyve made better results than most.
[/quote]

Probably not a bad idea. Though yes, one wouldn’t want to listen to everything they say (a lot of them get paid to say certain things). What is a good idea though is to try to find the similarities between the big strong guys and use those to formulate what is effective.

There are so few individuals who can actually do just about whatever they want and still get freaky big (Wheeler, Dillet, maybe some of the pro football players).

Here’s a newsflash for you…everyone has to train smart and train hard to get big and strong. The guys who are actually big and strong are not the ones who are “setting back” the information. It’s the guys who haven’t actually achieved anything physique wise (oh, but they read this study done on rats that said…) and are going around telling others that the big, strong, successful, experienced guys’ advice isn’t accurate or useful.

I highly doubt that you could find even 1 pro bodybuilder who would tell you that you don’t need to:

  1. use progressively heavier weights (overload)
  2. eat to gain
  3. rest enough to allow the body to adapt

Sure, some might have different ways that they prefer going about setting up their programs, but the core ingredients are all the same.

I agree. Though both performance and outcome goals are important to have.

And yet again here is what confuses me. “People get so caught up in wanting to build muscle, but forget the basic principles” makes it sound like there is a complete lack of understanding of what builds muscle. If this is what you were trying to say, then that really speaks volumes about the state of bodybuilding these days.

I’m tempted to say that this statement pretty much cancels out every intelligent statement you’ve made in this thread.

[quote]
But if your training for strength, and keeping a log, theres no way that 8 weeks will pass without you making progress. Also, then your not training based on how you feel, your training based on performance. [/quote]

Not true at all (if your goal is to build muscle). Also, if you neglect diet you’re sure to stagnate much sooner and your gains will be significantly less (if any).

I see lots of people in the gym lifting day in and day out, some even progressing from time to time in terms of weight. What separates the guys who grow from the guys who don’t is food. Lightweight power lifters/olympic lifters progress on their lifts yet never get very big. Why? Because they structure their diets to keep them in their weight class.

Diet is as important (if not even more) than progressive overload when it comes to building muscle.