Ahh you actually beat me to the punch. I was already typing that lol.
But to go into it more, after what had initially happened, I had this onslaught on negative thinking that really twisted my perspective of things. I found I was met with actually grappling with what “purity” even means. Hence why chose that word in particular when I first commented.
Before the sexual assault I had one boyfriend. Lost my virginity to him, and after some time we broke up. Usual teenager happenings, etc. After that the assault happened.
There was this stint where I actually truly felt filthy. In every sense of the word. No amount of scalding hot water could wash off how gross I felt. Hence the reasoning I came to, that if anything were to go down sexually, it would be because I said so. In my head, I was trying to recreate the perfect instance of me owning my sexuality. Feeling free, safe, and comfortable enough to do what I wanted. I never got to that “perfect” instance. Not once. Because there wasn’t one. And in doing so I hurt quite a few individuals who had no idea that I was fighting something they had nothing to do with.
I don’t think people understand, fully, that they attach so many things to the word “pure”. At this moment, I can’t articulate what’s going on in my head to make it make sense to you, but I will say, that I think humanity upholds this notion of purity in a sexual sense, because it means that you alone can now be the only one to make use of something “pure” for whatever satisfaction you bring out of it. It’s a “Me” thing. That’s what makes it so enticing. It suggests value. Even more so, if it’s something you can’t have.
No not to me. Being open about it is helpful. As I’m not the only one this has happened to. But that is why. I will say, the trauma itself is what the true problem was. How I expressed it, is what people pay the most attention to sadly. That’s why I’m thankful for people who, like you, at least ask in a genuine way “Why’d you do that?” I can’t speak for every woman. I can only speak for myself. I’m doing so, I can at least explain the “why” for certain situations people go through. I know that’s about as far as that will ever go, but it means understanding can be had SOMEWHERE, it’s better than nowhere at all.
Of course, I can absolutely agree with you on that. I had every opportunity to let out those things, or feelings in some other way. Some other way that was 10x better, safer, and more constructive.
I can understand. It’s crushing to admit you have a problem, but even more so knowing you could’ve fixed it better, or just didn’t fix it at all.
My husband had every opportunity, and quite frankly, still does, to have picked someone else, gone somewhere else, or done literally anything else. We met when we were very young. And started out as friends. He would walk with me to school, walk me home, we’d hang out in eachother’s friend groups, etc. So we had that initial connection. So I would say that’s a specific instance where the things were stacked in our favor. He knew me after the assault happened, but I withdrew socially from him, and he kind of assumed it was just us growing up and going separate ways. He met his girlfriend at that time, and I went my way as well. That big chunk of time, kinda shows the juxtaposition of what we were going through in life.
But I say all of that because once my husband and I got together seriously, I now had every opportunity to be as open and as honest as I possibly could be. I had to explain my behaviors, why I acted a certain way, and why sex was such an explosive topic for me. None of that happened quickly, and none of it was comfortable, but I refused to carry any of that around. There has been a rather big thing that recently happened between us (which I talked about in my personal log, albeit it’s a completely different situation, but I’m hinting to it to explain that confronting the “why” of behavior is extremely crucial, If you’d like to inquire there,), but we’re overcoming it the same way we initially overcame problems that accompanied us when we first got together.
Had it not been for me confronting my own behavior, I’d still to this day, be every bit of how you described your ex. But I had a choice to choose to heal, and I had a choice to be very open and vulnerable with my husband, and let him see me as myself, as a human. Scars and all. But I also now had a choice to let those things go. To not view my husband as a threat to my individuality as well.
I can understand how idealizations can be viewed as a tool, but I can’t agree that we should call it idealizations anymore, because when I mean idealizations I mean it in a sense of focusing on how we want a person to be, rather than who they actually are. And In the case of OP’s girlfriend, she’s done nothing wrong. (Not saying you thought so to begin with) If we’re talking about negative behavior, perhaps call it standards?
I actually have someone close to me who has something similar in her past and is only now in her mid -30s starting to ask questions. The man has been dead for over a decade but it still obviously affects her. I have no idea of her sexual partner count, but she has gone through periods where she will jump from one long-term relationship to the next with no respite, reflection period, or time to figure stuff out.
There’s lots of potential shit for us all to go through in life, drug/alcohol addiction, abusive parents, rape, the list goes on. Things can get complicated but this is another one for the “is he/she desirable because of this which happened in the past”. Many men wouldn’t consciously seek an alcoholic (recovering or otherwise) as a wife, many women wouldn’t seek that as a husband either. These circumstances and people can still find partners though. The lines get crossed when people imply any of these people aren’t worth it anymore because of their past. Don’t string people along if a person’s past is going to continue to be whats inherently an intrinsic issue to the person that’s making the judgement. The past does not mean a very sound bond cannot be formed - just that it will often be more difficult. Modern dating standards are a checkbox of “must be this, must have that”. Arguably our ancestors weren’t as smart as us but they still managed to form deeper longer-lasting connections. We are all capable of change. Even as a man I used sleeping around as escapism. I was dealing with my own shit and so didn’t want to get close to anyone. I would have a different girl picked up in the pub every few weeks - I couldn’t tell you a number I don’t know, but it’s probably at or close to triple digits. If anything it just made me more lonely and I can barely remember any of it.
Your feeling that it was a behavior you had to confront kinda shows that it’s not a natural thing to do as a woman. A man’s friends would say “wahey, go on lad” because of the prerequisites a man must meet to get laid. A woman’s friends historically should ask “why?”, because very few of those prerequisites exist. A woman could walk to a bar with the intent on taking a man home and almost certainly succeed. It is not the same for man (unless you are in the top percentage). The movement now is that “we can do it just like the boys do” which is a fight for perceived equality that’s leaving nobody as the winner.
Can agree. I think timing plays a big role as well. But that leads me to support the “Wait until you’re older to get married, have sex, have kids, etc.”, which I think holds weight on its own much for reasons we stated above.
Personally, I too had certain behaviors I’d avoid during the dating period. Much akin to those you mentioned. And I think that’s normal especially pertaining to the part you mentioned intrinsically. Don’t think it’s necessary to pit that against more extrinsic things we tend to gravitate towards as well, because I think both can and do exist together. But as far as standards go, or avoidance behavior, it’s expected.
I think difficulty comes up when effort isn’t being had, or at least when progress isn’t being made, or the fears that the other party has/had get validated. In that specific case (the validation one), yes I understand it. Full circle back to the start of the conversation, yada yada, so on.
You mentioning worth or worthiness is about the only thing I can think of that stands up against this whole purity concept we’ve been talking about. With that, I think it’s a more philosophical approach to everything. Even if someone chooses to not stick around, they at least don’t reduce someone to something negative. Man or woman. Worthiness is something I’d say is best found within the individual. The other person can only do so much to get someone to see that are not the sum of their problems, or the things they’ve gone through. (Cue victimhood, but that’s neither here nor there in this context)
Agree. That’s what I was hinting at when I said idealizations. For every one thing we want in a partner, it’s one thing less we might have, that someone else has on their list.
I’m not saying don’t have standards, or preferences, but I am saying keep them in line, and keep them attainable. Usually, that makes room for compromise, but I think the individuals who can line up the good characteristics they’re wanting, and let them hold more importance over the perceived negative behaviors at least have a better shot at finding more meaningful relationships. That’s assuming we can put an objective “middle” on what we deem negative behaviors.
Absolutely not. But for me, I treat it equal. It’s not normal for women, neither men. Forgive me for going off in the left field, but I think if it were normal for both men and women to have such high sexual partners, socially, there’d be no backlash about unwanted pregnancies, “that’s not my kid anyways”, and from a biological view, if it were normal, it wouldn’t disrupt things internally (STIs/STDs), BUT, in that same vein, the notion of responsibility gets shared to LITERALLY everyone. I know this viewpoint tends towards utopian scenarios, which just kills practicality/actuality, but that’s the point I’m trying make. You are indeed correct when you say “No that’s not natural”, because it isn’t.
Agreed. I can’t speak for men, because I’m not one, and while I can and can’t speak for women, I can at least speak as a human.
I’m gonna get all bleeding heart on you, so I apologize if I lose you, or it doesn’t make sense. Power itself isn’t partial to man or woman. It’s not demanding someone have this body part, this amount of brute strength, or ability to bear children. I believe power and equality go hand in hand. But there can’t be any room for selfishness, and there can’t be any room for lack of responsibility (call it wishful thinking, but it’s not irrational thinking). I don’t even think today’s revolution even wants equality, they want reparation, and they want people to hurt. Whether it’s wanting men to hurt, or urging women to transform sex into a commodity.
“Just like the boys do”, is a double edged sword, because to me at least, if you want the “benefits”, of the boys, you have to be doing what they’re doing. Are the vast majority of women willing to work heavy labor jobs, bust their ass marketing/managing/crunching numbers, work their way through corporate mazes, or push their way through academic rigor to get the power/money status that they’re fighting for? No. When they do, they’re labeled “too masculine”.
Conversely, are the vast majority of men willing to spend most of, if not their entire life raising children, tending to a plethora of household up keeping, taking up social and domestic jobs that, at surface value, doesn’t produce much by way of revenue/status? No. When they do, they’re labeled “too feminine”, but that’s the circle jerk everyone fails to notice. Doesn’t matter who initially labeled it “masculine” or “feminine”, it matters that we still sort and place others AND ourselves right into the division we claim we’re fighting against.
So we’d not only have to hush and put ourselves in equal amounts of blood, sweat, and tears, but we’d now also have to acknowledge whatever success as just a person’s success. Not “a woman’s success”, or “a man’s success. I mean all of that when talking about the U.S. I know that can only go so far as the U.S, is concerned, but I think it holds weight in other countries/societies as well.
I do appreciate the genuine conversation. I wouldn’t continuing conversation, (off topic/my log. I find the log route to be a bit better)but I think we (mostly I) might be derailing the thread lol.
And most physically can’t - which is fine. We are different - thank god.
I would argue this is the most important job on the planet.
We know what happens when this job is not done right or properly. Look no further than where society has gone and is heading. (Men have just as much blame here too I am not blaming just women).
A big role can be an understatement. Yes, it’s more typical that a woman wants a man with status and money, but there are oftentimes she can see potential in a man or develop feelings for someone that’s fallen on tough times. Confidence and options may be low so they end up together despite superficially being miles away from each other’s “type”. We always hear that growth happens in adversity, well I think that’s true for relationships also. This ties into the part you said about effort and progress. Sure, a guy can shout, belittle, or even make a thread on T-Nation about a girls past, and ask her all these questions she doesn’t want to answer. When you have strong feelings for someone an incredibly high emotional response is common (though that does not make it right).
Once that is all done. You leave it, or leave her. Progress would not be holding things from her past against her, giving her problems she cannot fix. If the man stays it is no longer her problem, it’s his problem. Even if you still can’t imagine leaving her whilst dealing with these issues, therapy is the answer, not a cloud held over her interfering with how you treat her day to day.
Standards are fine but delusions are not. A sexually-free single mother that believes she deserves a man at the top of the pile because of all those great looking guys that slept with her messing up her perception of the level she’s at (which is now even lower because lots of men don’t want to raise another mans child). Those guys may never have seen her as anything else but getting his end away. Men will mate down all the time, and with girls that are more free they get a false outlook on the market. This isn’t me targetting women, it was just the first example that came into my head where a person needs to have some realism and compromise on their values.
On all the other stuff you talk about. Many of the Nordic countries being so progressive with this stuff have already pretty much proved that equality of opportunity is not the same as equality of outcome. I wouldn’t ask my plumber to perform an endoscopy on me, in the same way I wouldn’t ask a gastroenterologist to fix my toilet. It doesn’t have to be gender-specific. They are different. Men and women are also different. It doesn’t mean a gastroenterologist couldn’t fix a toilet if he wanted to, but it’s not his lane. Heavy labor isn’t typically “a female lane”, the idea that me saying that could be considered misogynist is ridiculous. And as you imply, more maternal jobs/stuff in care isn’t typically “a male lane”. This does not mean a women can’t be bricklayer, or a plumber couldn’t have been a gastroenterologist. We all have things we are more likely to lean towards, and having a gender in the way makes certain sways even stronger.
OP, what’s your body count? If you guys have different morals and values that’s one thing, but if you both like to sleep around and have fun, you really can’t judge her in good faith.
Unless my love interest reveals their past in sex work or something insane like a +100 body count, I don’t feel like body count is a strong indicator of someone’s value or worth.
People are entitled to do whatever the fuck they want, but if you don’t agree with their perspective, you don’t have to stick around! You can respectfully dismiss yourself from the situation and find somebody who aligns more closely with your values.
Do you like her? Does she make you happy? Do you make her happy? And do you get along?
Those are the main factors with someone.
I’d rather be with someone who has had relationships (and good god don’t ask the number-she’s gonna lie) and knows what she likes/wants than a mixed up gal who’s trying to find herself and “thinks” she knows.
Of course if she shows up in a number of porn videos…well good luck!
My count is 7 plus a few other girls that were pretty giving. I do t count them as partners but if my current girl had done those things I would consider them partners for her. So you could say 12 but definitely 7.
I’m not sure if you read the original post but I explained the situation. Her situation was boyfriend 1 was a high school love. His family moved away and they separated because of distance. She then dated another guy in high school until he left for college. Then her first year in college she dated a guy for several months who was a few years older until she found out he was seeing someone else. That’s the quick version.
I’m not horribly naive but I was surprised when she told me 3. I expected 1 in high school and 1 in college. I’m really just hung up over one.
I spoke to a few buddies and they think 3 is about right for a college girl. I spoke with a coworker and he met his wife at 22 and he was #7 for her and he doesn’t seem bothered at all. I’m sure some of you are married, did you ask your wives.
I get twisted when I read statistics that say 4 is the lifetime partner count for a woman and then I read other post that say 10 is average for a woman and yet another website that says 4-8. I was really just looking for opinions on what other guys think about what’s typical for a college girl.
After all this time, metaphorically throwing her up against a wall of random statistics and asking on forums and now even your real-life acquaintances… you’re just being an asshole at this point. I’m not saying that to be mean, I’m saying it because you are wasting this poor girl’s time. Letting her feelings get stronger and staying with her whilst deciding whether or not you can accept this ridiculous non-entity that she has no power or capability of changing. It’s not right, and it’s not fair.
You either need to get into therapy to deal with your irrational fixation on something that’s completely normal, or you need to leave her now.
I think generally when a person refers to his or her partner as “current”, it’s a sign for the other person to leave.
I can’t logically think of why a man would have a girlfriend at all if he refers to his woman as “current” considering having a “current” girlfriend is one giant investment of time, emotion, and money.
I say current because we are young and have heard several times “you are young and life is long. You don’t really know what you want” people basically people saying we won’t end up together so I say current to appease those people and keep on track.
With all due respect, I do not think it is realistic or necessary to find the right person in the first shot. Ppl mature, preferences change, etc
Unless the person using the phrase has a track record of being an arsehole and dumping partners, I think “current” is a rational acknowledgment of possible changes
You are correct. I said “generally” for a reason, and that’s because I’ve seen over and over again the ways in which those who use the word “current” operate.
I also don’t believe young people are all incapable of knowing what they want. Typically the ultra-“successful” people in the West we admire knew very well what they wanted at young ages.
I agree. This does tend to be used a lot by said arseholes
True. However, knowing what you want professionally is very different from knowing what you want romantically or sexually. And even that changes through exploration.
The direction might be the same, but the specifics could be very different
For example, dad and his very successful friends all knew they needed to work hard and have a good career, but none thought they’d be entrepreneurs bc it didn’t seem like an option to them as students coming from “extreme” poverty or as new immigrants.
For me personally, I know what I want to do career wise, but my current romantic preference is strongly in favour of no romance. I acknowledge that this could change whereas I am dead set on getting a PhD and doing research to some extent even if I go into industry