New(est) Training Questions

Training
681

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Thy. wrote:
Thib,

Is it effective to train a specialized lift 5-7 times a week ?
For example, doing it almost everyday if possible on AM, and do the rest of the body on PM on some of the days ? What would be the loading protocols for such work if it’s adequate ?

[/quote]

If the volume and intensity are properly planned, it could work. But unless you are a strength athlete competing on one or two specific lifts (e.g. powerlifter or olympic lifter) I don’t see the point.[/quote]

  1. I just came across your post “Top-to-bottom spec”. Is it possible to train like outlined there without supplements (recovery aid) ? Possibly doing only 1 lift (top OR bottom) ?

  2. Is there no point getting extremely good at several big lifts for non-competing trainees ? Won’t training very often and doing the same lifts translate into better and faster results than training less often and with more variety ?

682

Hi CT

Can you please tell me why FINiBAR is the ideal carb choice before training and what kind of carbs?

As far I can tell from the label, its carb sources is from rice oligodextrin, palatinose and otas. Those are all slow acting carbs with low GI, right?

I thought an ideal carb choice before training would be a hi GI carb like dextrose, to create an insulin spike?

683

hey thib,

can u essentially use dead stop lifting on any compound lift? I can see how it could be effective on pullups, rows, dips and overhead presses but you just don’t hear about those exercises in dead stop training.

684

[quote]RawMinded wrote:
hey thib,

can u essentially use dead stop lifting on any compound lift? I can see how it could be effective on pullups, rows, dips and overhead presses but you just don’t hear about those exercises in dead stop training.[/quote]

Yes, they are very effective on any compound movement. For the barbell row you actually start with the bar on the floor. On chins and dips you have to support your legs on a bench otherwise your muscles are loaded as they are holding the position.

685

[quote]humseper wrote:
Hi CT

Can you please tell me why FINiBAR is the ideal carb choice before training and what kind of carbs?

As far I can tell from the label, its carb sources is from rice oligodextrin, palatinose and otas. Those are all slow acting carbs with low GI, right?

I thought an ideal carb choice before training would be a hi GI carb like dextrose, to create an insulin spike?[/quote]

The GI is, at best, an indirect measure of the insulin response. Plenty of foods have a relatively low glycemic index but cause an important insulin spike (measured by the insulin index). For exemple some yogurt has been tested at a GI of 62 but an II of 115, which is a higher insulin index than bread and rice.

On the other hand, brown rice was measured to have a GI of 104 but an II of 62.

The insulin index measures the actual insulin response, whereas the glycemic index only measures the speed at which the food increases blood glucose level.

Rice oligodextrin and palatinose has a low GI, meaning that they increase blood glucose slowly. But they actually have a high II.

So in other words, they spike insulin but release carbs in the blood stream over a relatively long period of time. This is actually what makes them the ideal carbs: you get the anabolic insulin spike, but a constant level of blood glucose during the workout which favors stable energy levels and prevents crashes.

686

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]humseper wrote:
Hi CT

Can you please tell me why FINiBAR is the ideal carb choice before training and what kind of carbs?

As far I can tell from the label, its carb sources is from rice oligodextrin, palatinose and otas. Those are all slow acting carbs with low GI, right?

I thought an ideal carb choice before training would be a hi GI carb like dextrose, to create an insulin spike?[/quote]

The GI is, at best, an indirect measure of the insulin response. Plenty of foods have a relatively low glycemic index but cause an important insulin spike (measured by the insulin index). For exemple some yogurt has been tested at a GI of 62 but an II of 115, which is a higher insulin index than bread and rice.

On the other hand, brown rice was measured to have a GI of 104 but an II of 62.

The insulin index measures the actual insulin response, whereas the glycemic index only measures the speed at which the food increases blood glucose level.

Rice oligodextrin and palatinose has a low GI, meaning that they increase blood glucose slowly. But they actually have a high II.

So in other words, they spike insulin but release carbs in the blood stream over a relatively long period of time. This is actually what makes them the ideal carbs: you get the anabolic insulin spike, but a constant level of blood glucose during the workout which favors stable energy levels and prevents crashes.[/quote]

Thib:

This isn’t a rebuttal, just simple curiosity - so then why doesn’t anyone talk about II? Why always GI? Your explanation makes so much more sense and is practical!

687

Thank for the answer.

Huge thank also for bringing me to light with the perfect reps

I finally did 225x3 on medium grip bench press, I know it’s not a lot but it means a lot to me. I struggled with the bench for a long long time, but I finally see some improvement with the perfect rep and I finally feel myself dominating the weight.

Mostly, perfect reps finally broke my pervasive rut of burning my CNS by taking every set to failure and I believe I have much progress ahead of me.

688

[quote]Mutsanah wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]humseper wrote:
Hi CT

Can you please tell me why FINiBAR is the ideal carb choice before training and what kind of carbs?

As far I can tell from the label, its carb sources is from rice oligodextrin, palatinose and otas. Those are all slow acting carbs with low GI, right?

I thought an ideal carb choice before training would be a hi GI carb like dextrose, to create an insulin spike?[/quote]

The GI is, at best, an indirect measure of the insulin response. Plenty of foods have a relatively low glycemic index but cause an important insulin spike (measured by the insulin index). For exemple some yogurt has been tested at a GI of 62 but an II of 115, which is a higher insulin index than bread and rice.

On the other hand, brown rice was measured to have a GI of 104 but an II of 62.

The insulin index measures the actual insulin response, whereas the glycemic index only measures the speed at which the food increases blood glucose level.

Rice oligodextrin and palatinose has a low GI, meaning that they increase blood glucose slowly. But they actually have a high II.

So in other words, they spike insulin but release carbs in the blood stream over a relatively long period of time. This is actually what makes them the ideal carbs: you get the anabolic insulin spike, but a constant level of blood glucose during the workout which favors stable energy levels and prevents crashes.[/quote]

Thib:

This isn’t a rebuttal, just simple curiosity - so then why doesn’t anyone talk about II? Why always GI? Your explanation makes so much more sense and is practical!
[/quote]

Because currently very foods have been tested for their insulin index.

From ‘‘The anabolic power of insulin’’

RW â?? What’s the difference between the well known glycemic index (GI) and this insulin index (II) you’re referring to?

JB â?? The popular glycemic index is a measure of the speed at which carbohydrates enter the blood after a meal. A high-glycemic index means that blood sugar rises rapidly in response to a meal while a low-glycemic index means that blood sugar rises very slowly. Traditionally, nutritionists thought that the faster the carbs got into the blood, the bigger the insulin response. So in an attempt to manage insulin, they recommended always eating low-glycemic foods.

However, several studies since have shown that some low glycemic index foods have huge insulin responses! So the correlation between glycemic index and insulin response breaks down with some foods. For example, milk products have a very low glycemic index. But they promote insulin responses parallel to the highest glycemic foods. What’s the deal? Well, it appears that there are several other factors that determine insulin release besides carb content and the rate of carb absorption.

This is why the insulin index was generated. This index actually measures insulin response to a food. So rather than assuming insulin response is correlated with carb absorption, these researchers decided to go ahead and measure it. And their results were eye opening!

RW â?? If a natural bodybuilder is planning their nutrient intake around the insulin index, what foods would they eat and what foods would they avoid?

JB â?? One thing to keep in mind is that there is no such thing as a bad food. Well, almost no such thing. I don’t think anyone can make a case for powdered, cream-filled doughnuts, besides the fact that they taste damn good! But I hope you see my point. Since I said earlier that sometimes you want an insulin surge â?? especially after workouts â?? and sometimes you don’t â?? especially at night before bedtime â?? we have to realize that we use the insulin index not to condemn foods but to decide when to eat them.

The point I want to stress is that the insulin index helps us add information to the glycemic index to make better food choices. So using both indices is the way to go. Since milk products have a low GI but a high II, these foods aren’t optimal when you want to keep insulin low. Other example foods or meal combinations for this situation are baked beans in sauce, meals with refined sugars and fats, and meals that are protein and carbohydrate rich. Each of these foods/combos have low GI scores but high II scores, none of which are optimal for low insulin times. But remember, some times you want high insulin so don’t relegate these foods/combos to a dark corner of your nutritional closet.

Conversely, unprocessed fibrous grains and cereals as well as fruits and veggies are great on both scales. In addition, most low-fat protein sources are also great on both scales.

You can also read: Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION

689

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Mutsanah wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]humseper wrote:
Hi CT

Can you please tell me why FINiBAR is the ideal carb choice before training and what kind of carbs?

As far I can tell from the label, its carb sources is from rice oligodextrin, palatinose and otas. Those are all slow acting carbs with low GI, right?

I thought an ideal carb choice before training would be a hi GI carb like dextrose, to create an insulin spike?[/quote]

The GI is, at best, an indirect measure of the insulin response. Plenty of foods have a relatively low glycemic index but cause an important insulin spike (measured by the insulin index). For exemple some yogurt has been tested at a GI of 62 but an II of 115, which is a higher insulin index than bread and rice.

On the other hand, brown rice was measured to have a GI of 104 but an II of 62.

The insulin index measures the actual insulin response, whereas the glycemic index only measures the speed at which the food increases blood glucose level.

Rice oligodextrin and palatinose has a low GI, meaning that they increase blood glucose slowly. But they actually have a high II.

So in other words, they spike insulin but release carbs in the blood stream over a relatively long period of time. This is actually what makes them the ideal carbs: you get the anabolic insulin spike, but a constant level of blood glucose during the workout which favors stable energy levels and prevents crashes.[/quote]

Thib:

This isn’t a rebuttal, just simple curiosity - so then why doesn’t anyone talk about II? Why always GI? Your explanation makes so much more sense and is practical!
[/quote]

Because currently very foods have been tested for their insulin index.

From ‘‘The anabolic power of insulin’’

RW Ã?¢?? What’s the difference between the well known glycemic index (GI) and this insulin index (II) you’re referring to?

JB �¢?? The popular glycemic index is a measure of the speed at which carbohydrates enter the blood after a meal. A high-glycemic index means that blood sugar rises rapidly in response to a meal while a low-glycemic index means that blood sugar rises very slowly. Traditionally, nutritionists thought that the faster the carbs got into the blood, the bigger the insulin response. So in an attempt to manage insulin, they recommended always eating low-glycemic foods.

However, several studies since have shown that some low glycemic index foods have huge insulin responses! So the correlation between glycemic index and insulin response breaks down with some foods. For example, milk products have a very low glycemic index. But they promote insulin responses parallel to the highest glycemic foods. What’s the deal? Well, it appears that there are several other factors that determine insulin release besides carb content and the rate of carb absorption.

This is why the insulin index was generated. This index actually measures insulin response to a food. So rather than assuming insulin response is correlated with carb absorption, these researchers decided to go ahead and measure it. And their results were eye opening!

RW �¢?? If a natural bodybuilder is planning their nutrient intake around the insulin index, what foods would they eat and what foods would they avoid?

JB Ã?¢?? One thing to keep in mind is that there is no such thing as a bad food. Well, almost no such thing. I don’t think anyone can make a case for powdered, cream-filled doughnuts, besides the fact that they taste damn good! But I hope you see my point. Since I said earlier that sometimes you want an insulin surge Ã?¢?? especially after workouts Ã?¢?? and sometimes you don’t Ã?¢?? especially at night before bedtime Ã?¢?? we have to realize that we use the insulin index not to condemn foods but to decide when to eat them.

The point I want to stress is that the insulin index helps us add information to the glycemic index to make better food choices. So using both indices is the way to go. Since milk products have a low GI but a high II, these foods aren’t optimal when you want to keep insulin low. Other example foods or meal combinations for this situation are baked beans in sauce, meals with refined sugars and fats, and meals that are protein and carbohydrate rich. Each of these foods/combos have low GI scores but high II scores, none of which are optimal for low insulin times. But remember, some times you want high insulin so don’t relegate these foods/combos to a dark corner of your nutritional closet.

Conversely, unprocessed fibrous grains and cereals as well as fruits and veggies are great on both scales. In addition, most low-fat protein sources are also great on both scales.

You can also read: Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION [/quote]

You have opened my eyes to a whole 'nother facet of carb intake - thanks, Thib.

690

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]humseper wrote:
Hi CT

Can you please tell me why FINiBAR is the ideal carb choice before training and what kind of carbs?

As far I can tell from the label, its carb sources is from rice oligodextrin, palatinose and otas. Those are all slow acting carbs with low GI, right?

I thought an ideal carb choice before training would be a hi GI carb like dextrose, to create an insulin spike?[/quote]

The GI is, at best, an indirect measure of the insulin response. Plenty of foods have a relatively low glycemic index but cause an important insulin spike (measured by the insulin index). For exemple some yogurt has been tested at a GI of 62 but an II of 115, which is a higher insulin index than bread and rice.

On the other hand, brown rice was measured to have a GI of 104 but an II of 62.

The insulin index measures the actual insulin response, whereas the glycemic index only measures the speed at which the food increases blood glucose level.

Rice oligodextrin and palatinose has a low GI, meaning that they increase blood glucose slowly. But they actually have a high II.

So in other words, they spike insulin but release carbs in the blood stream over a relatively long period of time. This is actually what makes them the ideal carbs: you get the anabolic insulin spike, but a constant level of blood glucose during the workout which favors stable energy levels and prevents crashes.[/quote]
Thanks for the great answer.

Just to make sure: Before training we are interested in a carb with a high insulin respons and a low GI, right?

And around all other times, than around our workout, we are interested in products which both have a low insulin respons and low GI?

But can you tell me why Surge Recovery contains D-glucose and maltodextrin which is high GI carbs, as opposed to the FINiBARs? Are there times when we want both high GI carb and high insulin responses?

691

[quote]humseper wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]humseper wrote:
Hi CT

Can you please tell me why FINiBAR is the ideal carb choice before training and what kind of carbs?

As far I can tell from the label, its carb sources is from rice oligodextrin, palatinose and otas. Those are all slow acting carbs with low GI, right?

I thought an ideal carb choice before training would be a hi GI carb like dextrose, to create an insulin spike?[/quote]

The GI is, at best, an indirect measure of the insulin response. Plenty of foods have a relatively low glycemic index but cause an important insulin spike (measured by the insulin index). For exemple some yogurt has been tested at a GI of 62 but an II of 115, which is a higher insulin index than bread and rice.

On the other hand, brown rice was measured to have a GI of 104 but an II of 62.

The insulin index measures the actual insulin response, whereas the glycemic index only measures the speed at which the food increases blood glucose level.

Rice oligodextrin and palatinose has a low GI, meaning that they increase blood glucose slowly. But they actually have a high II.

So in other words, they spike insulin but release carbs in the blood stream over a relatively long period of time. This is actually what makes them the ideal carbs: you get the anabolic insulin spike, but a constant level of blood glucose during the workout which favors stable energy levels and prevents crashes.[/quote]
Thanks for the great answer.

Just to make sure: Before training we are interested in a carb with a high insulin respons and a low GI, right?

And around all other times, than around our workout, we are interested in products which both have a low insulin respons and low GI?

But can you tell me why surge workout recovery contains D-glucose and maltodextrin which is high GI carbs, as opposed to the finibars? Are there times when we want both high GI carb and high insulin responses?[/quote]

Correct.

Regarding Surge Recovery. It was originally designed for POST-WORKOUT use. A time when you need both a high insulin release and fast blood glucose increase the replenish glycogen as fast as possible.

In my current protocol I do not use post-workout carbs as the pre-workout carbs intake prevents glycogen depletion.

Could Surge Recovery be used instead of Finibars in the protocol? Yes, it will work. But the timing is harder to get. If you mistime your intake you might have a blood sugar/energy crash during the workout.

692

Hi Thibs, how experienced do you feel a lifter should be before incorporating chains and/or bands in their training? i’m not asking for any exact numbers, just a rough guideline. Thanks!

693

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]humseper wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]humseper wrote:
Hi CT

Can you please tell me why FINiBAR is the ideal carb choice before training and what kind of carbs?

As far I can tell from the label, its carb sources is from rice oligodextrin, palatinose and otas. Those are all slow acting carbs with low GI, right?

I thought an ideal carb choice before training would be a hi GI carb like dextrose, to create an insulin spike?[/quote]

The GI is, at best, an indirect measure of the insulin response. Plenty of foods have a relatively low glycemic index but cause an important insulin spike (measured by the insulin index). For exemple some yogurt has been tested at a GI of 62 but an II of 115, which is a higher insulin index than bread and rice.

On the other hand, brown rice was measured to have a GI of 104 but an II of 62.

The insulin index measures the actual insulin response, whereas the glycemic index only measures the speed at which the food increases blood glucose level.

Rice oligodextrin and palatinose has a low GI, meaning that they increase blood glucose slowly. But they actually have a high II.

So in other words, they spike insulin but release carbs in the blood stream over a relatively long period of time. This is actually what makes them the ideal carbs: you get the anabolic insulin spike, but a constant level of blood glucose during the workout which favors stable energy levels and prevents crashes.[/quote]
Thanks for the great answer.

Just to make sure: Before training we are interested in a carb with a high insulin respons and a low GI, right?

And around all other times, than around our workout, we are interested in products which both have a low insulin respons and low GI?

But can you tell me why surge workout recovery contains D-glucose and maltodextrin which is high GI carbs, as opposed to the finibars? Are there times when we want both high GI carb and high insulin responses?[/quote]

Correct.

Regarding Surge Recovery. It was originally designed for POST-WORKOUT use. A time when you need both a high insulin release and fast blood glucose increase the replenish glycogen as fast as possible.

In my current protocol I do not use post-workout carbs as the pre-workout carbs intake prevents glycogen depletion.

Could Surge Recovery be used instead of Finibars in the protocol? Yes, it will work. But the timing is harder to get. If you mistime your intake you might have a blood sugar/energy crash during the workout.
[/quote]
I searched around a little on the net and found a couple of articles about palatinose and their insulin respons.

There are writing following about the GI and insulin respons:

“The GI of PalatinoseÃ?¢?Ã?¢ is 32.
The low effect on blood sugar results in less insulin release with a low insulinemic index of only 30.”

Also myprotein says the same:

“Does NOT create blood glucose or insulin level spikes”

Another page is claiming the same:

“PalatinoseTM is a brand new carb that has a very low glycemic index (GI) value of 32! This is much less than the index value of dextrose, and even the insulin index of PalatinoseTM is similarly low.”

Are they wrong or have I missed something?

694

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Thy. wrote:
Thib,

Is it effective to train a specialized lift 5-7 times a week ?
For example, doing it almost everyday if possible on AM, and do the rest of the body on PM on some of the days ? What would be the loading protocols for such work if it’s adequate ?

[/quote]

If the volume and intensity are properly planned, it could work. But unless you are a strength athlete competing on one or two specific lifts (e.g. powerlifter or olympic lifter) I don’t see the point.[/quote]

Thib, by volume and intensity do you mean actual set x rep schemes, percentages, etc. ?

Wouldn’t simply autoregulating by ramping to MFP everyday through moderate jumps (10-15kg, for lower volume) be enough as far as “planning” goes?

Could you possibly give a quick example ?

695

[quote]Thy. wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Thy. wrote:
Thib,

Is it effective to train a specialized lift 5-7 times a week ?
For example, doing it almost everyday if possible on AM, and do the rest of the body on PM on some of the days ? What would be the loading protocols for such work if it’s adequate ?

[/quote]

If the volume and intensity are properly planned, it could work. But unless you are a strength athlete competing on one or two specific lifts (e.g. powerlifter or olympic lifter) I don’t see the point.[/quote]

Thib, by volume and intensity do you mean actual set x rep schemes, percentages, etc. ?

Wouldn’t simply autoregulating by ramping to MFP everyday through moderate jumps (10-15kg, for lower volume) be enough as far as “planning” goes?

Could you possibly give a quick example ?[/quote]

I mean that if you train like that (a lift every day) you can’t work up to max force everyday. On some workouts you stop 2-3 sets before max force, on some you go to max force, on some others to max load, etc. There is no simple an universal structure, it really depends on how your body is progressing and how you are recovering.

696

[quote]fredarn wrote:
Hi Thibs, how experienced do you feel a lifter should be before incorporating chains and/or bands in their training? i’m not asking for any exact numbers, just a rough guideline. Thanks![/quote]

Bench pressing 1.5x body weight, squatting 2x body weight, deadlifting 2.5x body weight. All in good competition-style lifting (full squat, no bouncing on bench).

697

Coach, what do you think about zercher squats?

I’m asking cause I’m gonna use a Pull-Push-Legs Split, similar to the one you talk about in your “What I am doing now” thread:

On legs day, I’m going to do some form of sprinting or jumping first, and for the second exercise I’m debating between the front squat and the zercher squat. The third exercise will be a wide stance low bar back squat. I really like how I can finish the zercher squat with the glutes, as in a deadlift, along with the extra back work that you get with it, but I would like to hear your opinion about it, as the zercher is not a very popular movement.

I don’t know if this really matters, of if it’s important or not for choosing the best movement for me, but I can zercher squat more weight (225x8) than I can front squat (225x5). I go below paralel in both of them xD.

Thank you so much for your time coach!!

698

Thibs,

  1. Would you recommend someone with a long torso to pull sumo? If so, what stretches/mobility exercises should they use?

  2. When should a box squat be implemented if the goal is strength? How do you determine how wide your stance should be?

699

[quote]Mondy wrote:
Thibs,

  1. Would you recommend someone with a long torso to pull sumo? If so, what stretches/mobility exercises should they use?

  2. When should a box squat be implemented if the goal is strength? How do you determine how wide your stance should be?[/quote]

  1. It honestly depend more then just torso length. First and foremost it depends on your goal: are you looking to compete in powerlifting? If you do not, then the style of deadlifting you choose will depend more on physical development goal than on efficiency in a specific technique. If you DO want to compete then you should look into the style that suits your specific body type.

  2. I do not use the box squat personally or with any of my clients, so I’m not the one to ask.

700

[quote]JPuxHenri wrote:
Coach, what do you think about zercher squats?

I’m asking cause I’m gonna use a Pull-Push-Legs Split, similar to the one you talk about in your “What I am doing now” thread:

On legs day, I’m going to do some form of sprinting or jumping first, and for the second exercise I’m debating between the front squat and the zercher squat. The third exercise will be a wide stance low bar back squat. I really like how I can finish the zercher squat with the glutes, as in a deadlift, along with the extra back work that you get with it, but I would like to hear your opinion about it, as the zercher is not a very popular movement.

I don’t know if this really matters, of if it’s important or not for choosing the best movement for me, but I can zercher squat more weight (225x8) than I can front squat (225x5). I go below paralel in both of them xD.

Thank you so much for your time coach!![/quote]

I’m not that fond of Zerchers, although I have used them with specific athletes for specific purposes. But it is never among my primary movements. If you are using a powerlifting squat already, definetely go with the front squat instead of the zercher. It will lead to a more complete lower body development and less lower back strain.

Once they get past the incomfort, everybody can zercher more than they can front squat, so it doesn’t mean anything.