New(est) Training Questions

Training
641

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
Coach,

I’ve just been wondering. Since some of your earlier articles such as HSS-100 and Pendulum Training advocated higher reps and more bodybuilding techniques, do you still hold those articles to be valid? Would you say if you were training for bodybuilding principles that it’s still best to stay at low reps and ramp up or go for higher reps?[/quote]

I addressed this in the past. For all my training ‘‘career’’ (well, except for the first 2 years) I used mostly lots of sets (6-12+) of low reps (6 or less) of few exercises (2-4 per workout). That’s how my first coach had us train for football (training heavily based on powerlifting and olympic lifting with plyo thrown in) then I continued to train the same way when I switched to olympic lifting.

This pretty much covers a period ranging from 1990 to 2001. During that period I’d say that 90% of all my sessions were based on doing 4 basic lifts per workout. Either using an upper-lower split (when playing football) or a traditional olympic lifting breakdown (1 snatch variation, 1 clean & jerk variation, 1 squat variation, 1 pull or deadlift variation); doing a high number of sets of each exercise (6-12+) and kept my reps in the 1-5 range.

10% of the time (about 2 weeks after every 4 months of training) I would do a more traditional bodybuilding training to give my joints and psyche a break.

I then trained in a powerlifting gym for about 1-2 years, still doing the same type of workouts but focusing more on the bench and squat (used a program designed from reading Westside’s stuff). So I was still doing mostly low reps, with some inclusion of a little medium reps (6-8) on some isolation exercises.

I then got injured, started my career as a coach and decided to get lean to increase my credibility. I added more typical bodybuilding stuff, still keep a base of heavy lifting.

Around 2003 I decided to compete in bodybuilding and drastically changed my training; dropping the heavy lifting and focused mostly on isolation, tempo, drop sets, etc. It actually destroyed my physique and did very poorly at my first contest (lost a lot of muscle mass and fullness). I didn’t realize that it was the change in training, I simply believed that I overdieted.

I competed again a years after that still training like a bodybuilder, with typical ‘‘fatigue-isolation-pump’’ stuff. Did a bit better mostly because between both contests I had gotten back to heavy lifting and rebuilt somewhat of a base. I did better at the contest, but still wasn’t that good.

I basically decided to forget about bodybuilding at that point and really decided to get back to trying out for powerlifting. So I got back to heavy lifting and dropped most ‘‘pump’’ stuff (still doing isolation work, but heavier).

I was approached by Sebastien Cossette who wanted to compete in his first bodybuilding show (in 2005 I think). Being backstage with him kinda made we want to compete again. Which I did a year later. But I was a bit smarter and kept rotating strength-based training (3 weeks) with higher reps stuff (3 weeks) and did better at the contest.

BUT most of the people who knew me still asked what happened… the thing is that even though I was a pretty good shape at the show. I looked much better… bigger, fuller, more muscular and almost as lean 5 months prior to the show when I was still doing mostly strength stuff.

I once again blamed it on diet. It took me a while to realize it, but I finally understood that:

Heavy low reps training = muscular, full, powerful looking
Higher reps = losing fullness, not as muscular

Obviously this is just a sample size of 1 test subject (me). But I am now convinced that ‘‘pump’’ training is less than optimal for most. I’m not saying that everybody will need to keep using exclusively super low reps; some of my clients use a lot of work in the 6-8 range for example. But most will do better avoiding all those pump, fatigue-inducing techniques.

YES I wrote articles involving higher reps stuff and technique aimed at creating a burn or pump. But I wrote those when I was doing that type of training myself and when you are in the middle of doing something it is often hard to stay objective.[/quote]

See, at least you admit when you’re wrong (or in this case not 100% right).

Most people would never admit when they make a mistake, because they think it will ruin their reputation. If anything, I think it strengthens it, because it lets us know that you’re not in this for money or glory, just to help others out.

Props to you coach :wink:

642

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
Coach,

I’ve just been wondering. Since some of your earlier articles such as HSS-100 and Pendulum Training advocated higher reps and more bodybuilding techniques, do you still hold those articles to be valid? Would you say if you were training for bodybuilding principles that it’s still best to stay at low reps and ramp up or go for higher reps?[/quote]

I addressed this in the past. For all my training ‘‘career’’ (well, except for the first 2 years) I used mostly lots of sets (6-12+) of low reps (6 or less) of few exercises (2-4 per workout). That’s how my first coach had us train for football (training heavily based on powerlifting and olympic lifting with plyo thrown in) then I continued to train the same way when I switched to olympic lifting.

This pretty much covers a period ranging from 1990 to 2001. During that period I’d say that 90% of all my sessions were based on doing 4 basic lifts per workout. Either using an upper-lower split (when playing football) or a traditional olympic lifting breakdown (1 snatch variation, 1 clean & jerk variation, 1 squat variation, 1 pull or deadlift variation); doing a high number of sets of each exercise (6-12+) and kept my reps in the 1-5 range.

10% of the time (about 2 weeks after every 4 months of training) I would do a more traditional bodybuilding training to give my joints and psyche a break.

I then trained in a powerlifting gym for about 1-2 years, still doing the same type of workouts but focusing more on the bench and squat (used a program designed from reading Westside’s stuff). So I was still doing mostly low reps, with some inclusion of a little medium reps (6-8) on some isolation exercises.

I then got injured, started my career as a coach and decided to get lean to increase my credibility. I added more typical bodybuilding stuff, still keep a base of heavy lifting.

Around 2003 I decided to compete in bodybuilding and drastically changed my training; dropping the heavy lifting and focused mostly on isolation, tempo, drop sets, etc. It actually destroyed my physique and did very poorly at my first contest (lost a lot of muscle mass and fullness). I didn’t realize that it was the change in training, I simply believed that I overdieted.

I competed again a years after that still training like a bodybuilder, with typical ‘‘fatigue-isolation-pump’’ stuff. Did a bit better mostly because between both contests I had gotten back to heavy lifting and rebuilt somewhat of a base. I did better at the contest, but still wasn’t that good.

I basically decided to forget about bodybuilding at that point and really decided to get back to trying out for powerlifting. So I got back to heavy lifting and dropped most ‘‘pump’’ stuff (still doing isolation work, but heavier).

I was approached by Sebastien Cossette who wanted to compete in his first bodybuilding show (in 2005 I think). Being backstage with him kinda made we want to compete again. Which I did a year later. But I was a bit smarter and kept rotating strength-based training (3 weeks) with higher reps stuff (3 weeks) and did better at the contest.

BUT most of the people who knew me still asked what happened… the thing is that even though I was a pretty good shape at the show. I looked much better… bigger, fuller, more muscular and almost as lean 5 months prior to the show when I was still doing mostly strength stuff.

I once again blamed it on diet. It took me a while to realize it, but I finally understood that:

Heavy low reps training = muscular, full, powerful looking
Higher reps = losing fullness, not as muscular

Obviously this is just a sample size of 1 test subject (me). But I am now convinced that ‘‘pump’’ training is less than optimal for most. I’m not saying that everybody will need to keep using exclusively super low reps; some of my clients use a lot of work in the 6-8 range for example. But most will do better avoiding all those pump, fatigue-inducing techniques.

YES I wrote articles involving higher reps stuff and technique aimed at creating a burn or pump. But I wrote those when I was doing that type of training myself and when you are in the middle of doing something it is often hard to stay objective.[/quote]

Ok, sorry if I missed it earlier. I just wondered since I’ve found much of the same to be true with my training. I followed the HSS-100 program over the past summer and was constantly drained, fatigued and ended up weaker and smaller than when I started. Lately I’ve been sticking to mostly perfect rep principles, which I did before, and gain back size and strength fairly quickly. Thanks for the information though.

643

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
Coach,

I’ve just been wondering. Since some of your earlier articles such as HSS-100 and Pendulum Training advocated higher reps and more bodybuilding techniques, do you still hold those articles to be valid? Would you say if you were training for bodybuilding principles that it’s still best to stay at low reps and ramp up or go for higher reps?[/quote]

I addressed this in the past. For all my training ‘‘career’’ (well, except for the first 2 years) I used mostly lots of sets (6-12+) of low reps (6 or less) of few exercises (2-4 per workout). That’s how my first coach had us train for football (training heavily based on powerlifting and olympic lifting with plyo thrown in) then I continued to train the same way when I switched to olympic lifting.

This pretty much covers a period ranging from 1990 to 2001. During that period I’d say that 90% of all my sessions were based on doing 4 basic lifts per workout. Either using an upper-lower split (when playing football) or a traditional olympic lifting breakdown (1 snatch variation, 1 clean & jerk variation, 1 squat variation, 1 pull or deadlift variation); doing a high number of sets of each exercise (6-12+) and kept my reps in the 1-5 range.

10% of the time (about 2 weeks after every 4 months of training) I would do a more traditional bodybuilding training to give my joints and psyche a break.

I then trained in a powerlifting gym for about 1-2 years, still doing the same type of workouts but focusing more on the bench and squat (used a program designed from reading Westside’s stuff). So I was still doing mostly low reps, with some inclusion of a little medium reps (6-8) on some isolation exercises.

I then got injured, started my career as a coach and decided to get lean to increase my credibility. I added more typical bodybuilding stuff, still keep a base of heavy lifting.

Around 2003 I decided to compete in bodybuilding and drastically changed my training; dropping the heavy lifting and focused mostly on isolation, tempo, drop sets, etc. It actually destroyed my physique and did very poorly at my first contest (lost a lot of muscle mass and fullness). I didn’t realize that it was the change in training, I simply believed that I overdieted.

I competed again a years after that still training like a bodybuilder, with typical ‘‘fatigue-isolation-pump’’ stuff. Did a bit better mostly because between both contests I had gotten back to heavy lifting and rebuilt somewhat of a base. I did better at the contest, but still wasn’t that good.

I basically decided to forget about bodybuilding at that point and really decided to get back to trying out for powerlifting. So I got back to heavy lifting and dropped most ‘‘pump’’ stuff (still doing isolation work, but heavier).

I was approached by Sebastien Cossette who wanted to compete in his first bodybuilding show (in 2005 I think). Being backstage with him kinda made we want to compete again. Which I did a year later. But I was a bit smarter and kept rotating strength-based training (3 weeks) with higher reps stuff (3 weeks) and did better at the contest.

BUT most of the people who knew me still asked what happened… the thing is that even though I was a pretty good shape at the show. I looked much better… bigger, fuller, more muscular and almost as lean 5 months prior to the show when I was still doing mostly strength stuff.

I once again blamed it on diet. It took me a while to realize it, but I finally understood that:

Heavy low reps training = muscular, full, powerful looking
Higher reps = losing fullness, not as muscular

Obviously this is just a sample size of 1 test subject (me). But I am now convinced that ‘‘pump’’ training is less than optimal for most. I’m not saying that everybody will need to keep using exclusively super low reps; some of my clients use a lot of work in the 6-8 range for example. But most will do better avoiding all those pump, fatigue-inducing techniques.

YES I wrote articles involving higher reps stuff and technique aimed at creating a burn or pump. But I wrote those when I was doing that type of training myself and when you are in the middle of doing something it is often hard to stay objective.[/quote]

See, at least you admit when you’re wrong (or in this case not 100% right).

Most people would never admit when they make a mistake, because they think it will ruin their reputation. If anything, I think it strengthens it, because it lets us know that you’re not in this for money or glory, just to help others out.

Props to you coach :wink:
[/quote]

I’m in this because I love training. And because I love training so much I tried (and will try) a lot of crazy sh*t! Some that worked great some that didn’t. Some that gave good results in the short term but turned out to be ineffective in the long run.

I have zero problem admitting my mistakes. I don’t think that I know everything nor that I’ll ever stop learning.

I want to find the best way(s) to train. I don’t care where it comes from. If I come up with it or someone else. If someone else comes up with something better than my methods, then I’ll gladly change my methods.

644

[quote]Mutsanah wrote:
Curious about supramaximal holds - was going to try these on Friday with the following:

Possible workout - have to see how I feel that day and autoregulate but here is an example:
Close Grip Bench:
135x3
165x2
195x2
225x2
250x2
275x1
6 sec hold with 365
275x2
6 sec hold with 405
315x3

Suggestions?
Thanks!
M
[/quote]

So tried this today - CNS just wasn’t firing up for me, got to 295x1 and it felt heavy so I did a max hold 5 secs with 365 looking like I was getting tazed, arms shakin’ - OK not that bad but it was heavy. Rested 2 mins. and put up 315x2, had 3 in me no problem but didn’t want to grind that last rep. Will try this for a bit, see if it helps progress.

P.S. Also, 2nd day taking GPC pre-workout - took 900mgs. a capful, 60mins before walking into gym - didn’t feel anything. 2 weeks a go I put up 305x5 so this shouldn’t have been a problem today - actually wanted 315x4 or 5 but will have to be patient.
Anyone else NOT getting results from GPC? Should I up dose to 1200 mgs?

Thanks,
M

645

Hey coach,

Do you have any tips for overhead squatting? I have no problems doing a full snatch with 185lbs but I can’t do an OH squat with the same weight to save my life.

646

[quote]RawMinded wrote:
Hey coach,

Do you have any tips for overhead squatting? I have no problems doing a full snatch with 185lbs but I can’t do an OH squat with the same weight to save my life. [/quote]

It seems to be something pretty common. I personally was weak on the overhead squat compared to my snatch. The best snatch I did in training was 142.5kg (around 315lbs) but never went above 120kg on the overhead squat. There is the issue of getting the bar in the proper spot. And holding it there for a while. For some reason, it seems like catching the bar in a snatch causes a reflexive action of the muscles which makes you stronger in the catch position.

What did improve my overhead squat (the few times I invested any training in it) was doing heavy push press behind the neck with a snatch grip alternated with overhead squats. The stronger I got in my overhead movements, the better my overhead squat became. But even that eventually became problematic as doing super heavy behind the neck push press is almost suicidal since you have to bring the bar down to the shoulders after you pressed it.

IMHO the overhead squat is overrated anyway. It is useful when getting used to catching a snatch in the low squat position, but when you are efficient in the full squat snatch, the overhead squat isn’t worth the efforts you put into it. There are much better exercises to strengthen the lower body.

I don’t know of many elite olympic lifters who do a lot of overhead squats.

647

coach

i tried those skull-crushers from pins, and i just wanted to ask if I achieve the desired effect if the most “pain” during the exercise is at the lower part of the whole tricep, right above the ellbow, is this the goal of the exercise? it somehow gives me the feeling as if my whole elbow goes through hypertrophy in a sense, no other triceps work does give me this

648

Coach,

Once I hit the lockout position should I pause for a second or lower again immediately? The only reason I ask is because of some pain I’ve started getting in my elbows.

649

Thibs,

My current max at 160lbs

Deadlift: 352 Bench Press: 210 Front Squat: 220

How does this 2 day routine look?

Day 1:

A1) Drop step ups 3-5 reps for 3-6 sets (stop when it’s no longer explosive)

A2) Back squat ramp up to a max for 2 reps

B1) Fatman Pullup 5-10 reps (stop when it’s no longer explosive)

B2) Power barbell row ramp up to a max of 3 reps

Day 2/3: OFF/ jitjitsu on one of those days

Day 4:

A1) Explosive pushups off bench 5-10 reps (stop when it’s no longer explosive)

A2) Bench Press ramping up to a max for 2 reps

B1) Hang clean ramp up to a max of 2 reps

B2) Conventional deadlift ramp up to a max of 3 (done in a 3 deadstop, 2 deadstop/1FT, 1 DS/1FT format)

My goal is to increase my big 3 lifts and become more explosive. Or would you suggest me to do some other routine?

Merci.

650

Hi coach, first let me say thanks for all of your articles over the years. I have really enjoyed reading/applying your work. Everything that I gave tried of yours has improved my training outcomes. My question is this:given your latest findings and methods of autoregulation, perfect rep, etc. Would you still recommend your part-time beast format for someone with very little time? I am a new father who works 7 days a week, so I want to train as much as my body will allow. I plan on continuing with the anaconda protocol more for recovery than size gains. I don’t want to lose what I have gained, and I know that if I do it right I could still progress. Thanks for your time

651

So my guess is that it would be fine to go with the program, I just wanted your take on it since you wrote and will soon be a father. Lately I have been trying the ibb techniques/ perfect rep etc. with the “old school” fundamentals of Hepburn, gallagher, ditillo, so my plan is to have a minimum of 2 fullbody routines with ramping/final reduced weight max rep set, and add in a strength endurance or ratchet based workout when time is available. How does that sound? Thanks again

652

[quote]rp_shea wrote:
Hi coach, first let me say thanks for all of your articles over the years. I have really enjoyed reading/applying your work. Everything that I gave tried of yours has improved my training outcomes. My question is this:given your latest findings and methods of autoregulation, perfect rep, etc. Would you still recommend your part-time beast format for someone with very little time? I am a new father who works 7 days a week, so I want to train as much as my body will allow. I plan on continuing with the anaconda protocol more for recovery than size gains. I don’t want to lose what I have gained, and I know that if I do it right I could still progress. Thanks for your time[/quote]

I often resort to abbreviated training myself. I have a crazy schedule sometimes (I actually rarely have a stable one) and if I can afford to train 2-3 times a day for short periods of time, I often barely have time for 3 weekly schedules of around 30-45 minutes.

Abbreviated training can work, and does work if applied properly. This means:

  1. Selecting the exercises that give you the most bang for your buck
  2. Making every single repetition or ever single set count (the perfect rep style and deadstop movements are good ways of doing that)
  3. Keeping the workout rhythm up, as long as performance doesn’t suffer

A very good abbreviated schedule for 3 weekly workouts would look like this:

DAY 1
Squat movement
Vertical pushing movement
Vertical pulling movement*
*The last two exercises being performed as an antagonist pair

DAY 2
Deadlift movement
Horizontal pushing movement
Horizontal pulling movement*
*The last two exercises being performed as an antagonist pair

DAY 3
Olympic lift variation (e.g. power clean from blocks or power snatch from hang)
Deadstop pressing exercise
Deadstop pulling exercise

While any loading scheme of 2-5 reps utilizing ramping will work, the following blocks will be especially effective

Week 1: Sets of 3 reps, regular ramping (starting at around 50%, adding around 20lbs per set until you reach your max force point)
Week 2: Sets of 3 reps, micro-ramping (starting at around 50%, adding 5-10lbs per set until you reach your max force point)
Week 3: Sets of 3 reps, double-ramping (starting at around 50%, doing two sets with the same weight before going up roughly 20lbs)
Week 4: 3 sets of 3 reps with the max force point reached on week 1 (deloading week) OR 5 sets of 5 reps with 15% less than the max force point reached during week 3

653

How exactly does 3x3 with a heavy weight deload you from working up to just 1 set of max force? Assuming you start week one at say a MFP of 3x200 and get great gains up to 3x215 (which is probably more than most could expect in 2 weeks) or so on the 3rd week it seems like 3x3x200 the next week would still be more taxing. I don’t plan on doing an abbreviated routine but just out of curiosity, and maybe for info on how I might set up a future deload.

654

Thib, are traditional paused bench presses (pause on the chest) an effective deadstop movememnt, or you’d usually do pin presses instead ?

655

[quote]Thy. wrote:
Thib, are traditional paused bench presses (pause on the chest) an effective deadstop movememnt, or you’d usually do pin presses instead ?[/quote]

Both are different. The regular paused bench press keeps the muscles under tension so the type of action is called ‘‘isometric overcome by dynamic’’ whereas the pin presses start with the muscles not under load, a type of action called ‘‘relaxed overcome by dynamic’’.

Both have their pros and cons and both can (and should) be used in a good program. The later (pin presses) is generally more draining on the nervous system so I would not do more than 5-10 total reps this way in a workout… could be anything from 1 set of 5 up to 10 sets of 1 (progressive ramping) although 4-5 sets of 2 or 2-3 sets of 3 seems to work best.

656

[quote]Needmassquick wrote:
How exactly does 3x3 with a heavy weight deload you from working up to just 1 set of max force? Assuming you start week one at say a MFP of 3x200 and get great gains up to 3x215 (which is probably more than most could expect in 2 weeks) or so on the 3rd week it seems like 3x3x200 the next week would still be more taxing. I don’t plan on doing an abbreviated routine but just out of curiosity, and maybe for info on how I might set up a future deload. [/quote]

You should deload with a lowered volume, not lowered intensity. Plus, the 3 x 3 is done with the MAX FORCE WEIGHT… read the multiple posts about this point. The MFP is the heaviest weight you can accelerate for all the reps. For 3 reps that is arounf 80-85%. Although heavy, it is not maximal.

Not to mention that you are using the max force point you reached on week 1 of the cycle, normally you gain strength in the 3 weeks prior to the deload.

657

Coach quick question:

Ive been religiously using your methods over the last couple weeks and i am enjoying perfect rep/autoregulation principles. Im curious about 2 things though

  1. I never thought to ask before but i was curious as to why grinding reps are bad. Growing up i always thought that those last couple reps were you struggle with a spotter were extremely important and i have no problem accepting that there not just wanna go biomechanically what the thought process is behind them not being as good.

  2. I was also curious about the use of TUT(time under tension) and if you think that that principle is outdated or if you still incorporate it in your workouts and training.

Thanks coach as always i appreciate the advice

658

Thanks for your response, that’s basically what I had laid out, minus the rep scheme details, so that’ll be perfect.

659

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]RawMinded wrote:
Hey coach,

Do you have any tips for overhead squatting? I have no problems doing a full snatch with 185lbs but I can’t do an OH squat with the same weight to save my life. [/quote]

It seems to be something pretty common. I personally was weak on the overhead squat compared to my snatch. The best snatch I did in training was 142.5kg (around 315lbs) but never went above 120kg on the overhead squat. There is the issue of getting the bar in the proper spot. And holding it there for a while. For some reason, it seems like catching the bar in a snatch causes a reflexive action of the muscles which makes you stronger in the catch position.

What did improve my overhead squat (the few times I invested any training in it) was doing heavy push press behind the neck with a snatch grip alternated with overhead squats. The stronger I got in my overhead movements, the better my overhead squat became. But even that eventually became problematic as doing super heavy behind the neck push press is almost suicidal since you have to bring the bar down to the shoulders after you pressed it.

IMHO the overhead squat is overrated anyway. It is useful when getting used to catching a snatch in the low squat position, but when you are efficient in the full squat snatch, the overhead squat isn’t worth the efforts you put into it. There are much better exercises to strengthen the lower body.

I don’t know of many elite olympic lifters who do a lot of overhead squats. [/quote]

Your absolutely correct, i didn’t and am not getting any lower body gains from it. It used to crush my shoulders in a painful way at first but now i feel really good doing them. I think that they have strengthened the weaker muscles in the shoulder girdle and might have helped with flexibility a bit. Thanks again.

660

Coach,

To replace cable crunches in the trunk strength super set of your babe hounds ab program could I do something like in the video below to gain the same results or should I do a different exercise?

Would side bends, russian twist or landminds be good replacements for the twisted cable crunches in the program?