New(est) Training Questions

[quote]RawMinded wrote:

[quote]CPerfringens wrote:
Maybe I missed it, but why not explode deadlifts off the floor and wait the be beyond the knee? [/quote]

I found out two problems with exploding off the floor:

  1. You lose your grip, you have more of a chance of the bar slipping out

  2. Your butt comes up and the rest of the lift becomes all lower back because your hips will be too high. Most people will still try to pull it up but it is way too dangerous, especially if your using heavy weight (+80% of your max) [/quote]

No 2. is the most important point. I actually learned this when I was competing in olympic lifting. My coaches all stressed that the first pull (from floor to just above knees) is just to get the bar at the starting position of the more important second pull and make sure that the body is in optimal mechanical position at that point.

When training the deadlift to maximize muscular development OR athletic performance the second pull is the key phase.

Size-wise it’s at that point that the hamstrings, glutes, lower back and traps are maximally loaded.

Performance-wise this duplicate the ‘athletic position’ found in lots of sports.

[quote]RawMinded wrote:
Hey CT,

On floor presses, is it better to keep legs straight and make it an exclusive upper body push ? do you ever pause at the bottom or is it always touch and go?[/quote]

I keep the legs straight.

I always do a short pause. I see the floor press as a deadstop movement. If I want to work the same range of motion using a fast turnaround I will use a board press.

CT, on Deadlifts, would you reccomend a short pause between each rep - like you do on floor presses, or is is better to do the reps pretty quick on the deadlift?

[quote]fredarn wrote:
CT, on Deadlifts, would you reccomend a short pause between each rep - like you do on floor presses, or is is better to do the reps pretty quick on the deadlift?[/quote]

Look about 3 pages back. Think CT said he personally likes to pause to reset then go again.

Weekly Split for Perfect Rep
I’m just an Intermediate as far as strength goes but have been training a long time. Been doing the PR system for 2 weeks, LOVE IT, but need to make a change. I think you said a bodypart is optimally trained twice per week. However, I can not spend more than 3 days at the gym, and better with two days. What do you think of the following split:

Monday
Bench Press 6 sets x3 reps
Military Press 6 sets x3 reps
Row 6 sets x3 reps

Squats 6 sets x3 reps
Glute Ham raise 3 sets x5 reps

Thursday
Incline Bench 6 sets x3 reps
Dips 6 sets x3 reps
Chins 6 sets x3 reps

Deadlifts 6 sets x3 reps
Leg Press raise 3 sets x5 reps

Occassionally might do some BB Curls or Forearm work after back work

To manage the sessional fatigue better, I will rest 3-5 minutes in between exercises. Though the sessions are longer, I figure that I am still hitting the bodyparts 2x per week , with sufficient sessional volume, and also getting lots of rest between workouts. What do you think of the above routine?

Thanks,

Roy

[quote]BHG wrote:

[quote]swans05 wrote:
i wouldn’t double up on movements during the week

options are:

cut to 3/week…maybe you could add arms to the wed as the exercises used won’t have as many ramps as the other days

mon - back squat, rack pull,military
wed - pull up, loaded push up, bent row
fri - front squat, deads, bench

keep at 4/week but don’t double on movements maybe with a push/pull split

mon - hang clean, pull ups, bent rows
tue - back squat, bench, tri’s
thu - deads, chest supported bb rows, curls
fri - front squat, military, loaded push up

i wouldn’t go with more then 3 exercises/day for starters i think CT has said
[/quote]

Thanks for the reply, man.
I was initially wary of doubling up on the movements too. But as CT has stated earlier, when he was training OL he squatted six times a week. So I’m not quite sure what to do. I did, however, like your 3 day split - I might give that one a go.
BTW, direct arm training isn’t really a big concern of me.

EDIT: I think weighted push ups may prove difficult in combination with the perfect rep method (weight moving when you explode up). Also, benching after front squats and deadlifts will be quite hard.

How about something like this:

MON Back squat, rack pull, pull up
WED Bench, military press, bent-over BB row
FRI Front squat, deadlift, dips

My only concern with this is that back will get hit 3 times per week, which may be a little much.[/quote]

no offense but i don’t think your CT…

wted push ups will work with a wt vest if you have one or if you can strap the wt “directly” to you so it doesn’t wobble around which is a problem i’ve had in the past

you’ll have 3 "big’ exercises on each day so yes it will be hard but that’s why we train hey? looking at your 1st day, you’ve got the 2 biggest exercises you’ll do wt wise so won’t you be too tired to do pull ups then?

mon - back squat, bench, bent row
wed - deads, dips, pull up
fri - front squats, rack pull, military

back should be fine done 3/week, you train different planes and motor patterns each day

[quote]Thy. wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Thy. wrote:
Thib, my bench press max is around 100 kg at 65kg bw - do I have a decent CNS or it’s still beginner level ? (total training age is actually 3 years, but as you can judge by results most of it is stupid training - mostly too much intensity and maxing out, but I also started super weak and weighing 10 kg less)

I’m training to figure out whether I will benefit much from speed work at my level. (according to your latest chart about three loading points)[/quote]

I haven’t seen you lift, so it’s hard to establish where you are at. IMHO your body weight will limit your strength gains eventually (if not right now). Your relative strength (strength vs. bodyweight) is decent , you just do not have much mass.

I might recommend doing a few weeks at beginner level, but with sets of 5, plenty of them. And after a month maybe try the intermediate level (a bit heavier work).[/quote]

Interesting, I just saw your new table, and judging by the sets of 1, I can easily accelerate 92-97% (MLP), with only some slowness blasting through the sticking point (no grinding), which puts me in the C category, although I’m not strong or advanced at all. What does that tell you ? (or nothing because you can’t see me lift?)
[/quote]

where can i find this table?

Hi coach!

First I’d like to say that I’m very happy with my results doing perfect reps so far. I have increased my max force bench on a triple with 8,5 kilos in a couple of weeks, and I’ve also improved my squat somewhat. I don’t know about hyperterophy yet, and if little happens it might be my own fault seeing as my diet, to be honest, is somewhat mediocre at present due to the stresses of working at a gym in january.

I have a question concerning pull-ups and chin-ups. I’m having a really hard time assessing when to quit when doing those movements. The reason is that when I do rep two or three, the start of the movement can feel faster or just as fast as the preceeding rep, but then I come to a dead stop an inch or two from the actual top position. That would mean that it was one rep to much even when I felt sure it was not. The problem is that I have no internal clues to tell me when this will happen. Do you have some advice on how to overcome this obstacle?

I think it slows my progress. I’ve increased my pulls a little, but the results are nowhere near as good as my presses.

[quote]swans05 wrote:

[quote]Thy. wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Thy. wrote:
Thib, my bench press max is around 100 kg at 65kg bw - do I have a decent CNS or it’s still beginner level ? (total training age is actually 3 years, but as you can judge by results most of it is stupid training - mostly too much intensity and maxing out, but I also started super weak and weighing 10 kg less)

I’m training to figure out whether I will benefit much from speed work at my level. (according to your latest chart about three loading points)[/quote]

I haven’t seen you lift, so it’s hard to establish where you are at. IMHO your body weight will limit your strength gains eventually (if not right now). Your relative strength (strength vs. bodyweight) is decent , you just do not have much mass.

I might recommend doing a few weeks at beginner level, but with sets of 5, plenty of them. And after a month maybe try the intermediate level (a bit heavier work).[/quote]

Interesting, I just saw your new table, and judging by the sets of 1, I can easily accelerate 92-97% (MLP), with only some slowness blasting through the sticking point (no grinding), which puts me in the C category, although I’m not strong or advanced at all. What does that tell you ? (or nothing because you can’t see me lift?)
[/quote]

where can i find this table?[/quote]

Not looking very far are you… it’s like 1 or 2 posts back

i already copied it before i posted that, i thought it was in reference to something else

Christian: Happy New Year.

Regarding the head/eye position in the Snatch-Grip Deadlift from a 4" Deficit:

Initial Position: The head should be held/looking slightly down and forward, correct?
Final Position: Head held straight looking straight ahead, correct?

I had some rather large and obnoxious meathead interupt my pulling today to correct and pester me about keeping both my eyes and chin held up high from the start of the movement… it just didn’t feel right when I tried it for a single rep at 330lbs as I couldn’t stretch my traps fully nor could I get my shoulders fully in front of the bar for the initial pull.

The meathead wasn’t too happy when I told him “Nope. And please don’t bother me again” and I went straight back to pulling my way.

[quote]Ricochet wrote:
Christian: Happy New Year.

Regarding the head/eye position in the Snatch-Grip Deadlift from a 4" Deficit:

Initial Position: The head should be held/looking slightly down and forward, correct?
Final Position: Head held straight looking straight ahead, correct?

I had some rather large and obnoxious meathead interupt my pulling today to correct and pester me about keeping both my eyes and chin held up high from the start of the movement… it just didn’t feel right when I tried it for a single rep at 330lbs as I couldn’t stretch my traps fully nor could I get my shoulders fully in front of the bar for the initial pull.

The meathead wasn’t too happy when I told him “Nope. And please don’t bother me again” and I went straight back to pulling my way.[/quote]

You are correct, he isn’t. It has to do with extensors and flexors reflexes. I won’t get into too much details, but during the deadlift the head should indeed be tilted slightly down, looking forward during the first pull (floor to knees) and then raised slighted during the second pull.

Here’s an article covering that subject. Notice that when the author mentions a neutral head position during the start of the deadlift, it means that the head is in line with the spine and thus naturally tilted down.

Reflexive Lifting: How To Make Your Neural Reflexes Work With You And Not Against You!
Dr. Eric Cobb

One of my favorite quotes is by Combatives expert Tony Blauer who states,

“An expert is someone who has memorized someone else’s material.”

Sadly, the health and fitness world are a prime example of this. Walk into any college weight room or gym across the country that still allows people to pick up heavy things, and you will see lots of athletes doing the “right” thing, the wrong way.

This is one of the most important lessons that I always try to get across to my athletes and certification attendees; any exercise can be a great exercise, and any exercise can be a terrible exercise â?? it depends both on what you are doing, and how you are doing it!

For a number of years, we have been teaching concepts and ideas that run counter to the popular culture, and one of these small, but important, concepts involves head and neck position during weight training: especially during the squat and deadlift.

Our typical approach to all athletic activities is to deconstruct them from a neurologic perspective because your nervous system runs the show. Doing so has led us to some very powerful conclusions about proper neck position from both a safety and performance perspective.

To begin, when you look at the multiple pieces of the neurologic puzzle involved in squatting and deadlifting, one thing that cannot be denied is the fact that reflexes play a huge part. Let’s take a quick look at two different important reflexes, as well as how these apply to enhancing your lifts.

The Eyes Have It

In almost all sports, including lifting heavy weights, the eyes play a vital role. While a heavy deadlift doesn’t require much in the way of great vision, it does require great eye position! Let me explain.

The muscles that surround the eyes, called the extraocular muscles, are all innervated by small nerve endings. These small nerve endings provide propioceptive (body awareness) input to various neuromotor sensors in the spinal cord and the brain. The primary reason for this is that the eyes and the inner ear work together to create balance and stability in virtually all of our movements.

How does this apply to your lifts? It’s quite simple, really. The small nerve endings in the extraocular muscles actually create full body muscular responses to help guide movement. Practically speaking, what this means is that if your eyes are moved up, the small nerve endings in the extraocular muscles facilitate the extensor muscles of the body, creating a simultaneous inhibition of the flexor muscles. Conversely, the eyes down position will create flexor facilitation and extensor inhibition. Put simply, the eyes lead the body.

Please take note at this point that we are talking about eye movements SEPARATE from head movements. You can create these facilitation and inhibition reflexes by moving only your eyes while maintaining a completely neutral spine. Unfortunately, this is not what most lifters do.

When you look at this reflexive pattern closely, you will see that the classic neck hyperextension taught and practiced by many people over the years is a legitimate attempt to take advantage of this reflex. Unfortunately, following the “more must be better” philosophy common to the fitness world, few lifters actually make the differentiation between the eyes and the neck. While looking up to the ceiling does creates the desired “eyes up” position and subsequent extensor facilitation, the accompanying neck hyperextension can bring another reflex into play: the arthrokinetic reflex.

The arthrokinetic (arthro = joint, kinetic = motion) reflex is a simple reflex that can have both positive and negative impacts on the body. The arthrokinetic reflex was initially described by a group of physical therapists who found that mobilizing joints in the spine while strength testing subjects actually created an increase in muscular strength. We explain this simply to our athletes by saying “mobile joints create stronger muscles”.

Conversely, the arthrokinetic reflex also has a protective aspect to it that can negatively impact strength training if you fail to understand it. From a survival standpoint, this reflex is designed to inhibit muscular activity when joints are at risk due to compression. If you take a joint or series of joints (like the neck), compress and then load them, if enough nerve endings are disturbed, a reflexive shutdown effect will occur throughout the body, limiting the available horsepower. This is your body’s attempt to keep you safe from yourself. Just as above, there is a simple way that we describe this aspect to our athletes; “jammed joints create weak muscles.”

Keeping this in mind, look at the typical neck postures that most people use when performing a traditional back squat or dead lift. In about 85% of lifters that I have ever observed, you see significant cervical hyperextension in combination with the eyes up position held throughout the lift. If the neck hyperextension is strong enough to invoke the arthrokinetic reflex, the lifter is playing tug of war with himself!

Logically speaking, we want our athletes to use their hard-wired reflexes correctly to enhance their lifts, and prevent negative reflexes from inhibiting their lifts. Based on the above information, there are three distinct things that we teach:

Eye Position:

Make eye position your first priority. Understand that eyes up = extensor facilitation and that eyes down = flexor facilitation. Depending upon your personal challenges in your lifts, use the correct eye position to facilitate the movement you most need to make. It is important to play with these concepts in a variety of lifts to feel the effects.

Neutral Neck Position:

For most athletes, we advocate learning their lifts in a neutral neck position. This is the simplest and safest way, as long as it is combined with eye position, for most athletes to learn. However, there is a third option that some elite lifters can use as long as they understand what they are trying to do.

Neck Extension (not hyperextension) Combined with Axial Extension:

Axial extension is a term that, in the spine, means to take the crown of the head and the coccyx or tailbone and move them apart along the long axis of the spine. Think of this as trying to stand as tall as you can without thrusting your chest out or hyperextending your neck. A number of research studies looking at models of the ligamentous and muscular actions of the spine indicate that axial extension stabilizes the spine more than virtually any other activity by increasing activity in the transversospinales muscles. As a result, axial extension is considered by some to be the most stable and safe position for the spine. Obviously, whenever you’re going under heavy load during a deadlift or a squat that is exactly what you want.

With practice, it is possible to take advantage of a slight cervical extension, while maintaining axial extension and a correct eye position. This is the best of all possible worlds but it requires work and often hands-on coaching to get it just right.

To begin this process, let’s look at a couple of experimental drills that you can perform to see the power of your reflexes!

Eye Position Deadlift Experiment:

Try this drill to see how eye position can increase your pulling power.

  1. Begin in your normal deadlift stance, and grip the bar.
  2. While maintaining a neutral neck position, move your eyes only up to focus midway on the wall in front of you.
  3. As you initiate the pull and move up past your knee toward lockout, your head will track up toward neutral. While this is occurring smoothly shift your eyes up to the ceiling.
  4. Remember that this may feel very weird at first, so practice with very light loads in the beginning to smooth out the eye movements before you up the weight.

Eye Position Kettlebell Swing Experiment:

In comparison to the above, here is an experiment that demonstrates the use of the eyes in a ballistic drill. You can use eye position both to facilitate the explosive part of the list, and to facilitate the braking action necessary.

  1. Begin in your normal swing position.
  2. While maintaining a neutral neck position, move your eyes only up to focus midway on the wall in front of you and initiate the swing.
  3. As the bell comes up and you hip snap, allow the eyes to maintain their focus on the midpoint of the wall in a neutral head position.
  4. As the bell starts down, maintain your neutral neck position, while keeping the eyes fixed on the same spot. As the bell drops further, this will naturally move you into an eyes “up” position at the bottom of the swing. This helps facilitate the extensor braking action.
  5. You can also experiment with allowing the eyes to follow the bell at the bottom of the swing if you want to increase the velocity or depth of this portion of the movement. However, from a safety perspective I don’t prefer this for most athletes, unless they already possess exceptional swing technique.

The take away lesson of this article and the drills is that your nervous system is the primary driver of your strength. Learning to take advantage of the beneficial reflexes hard-wired into your body, while minimizing unnecessary protective reflexes, will take the brakes off your strength and performance and help move you closer to your true genetic potential. Most importantly, you can do it safely and healthfully. Give it a try â?? your body will thank you for it!

Outstanding read… many thanks.

I am pretty much spot on with the eye movement he suggested… just need to raise the eyes upward a bit more at the lockout. Plus, I was starting to think I was developing a bad habit right before I pulled… I stretch and adjust my neck then push my shoulders down… unknowingly I was performing the axial extension to prepare myself for the heavy load.

Again, thank you as this really helped me a whole lot.

I see you skipped my question. I apologize if it’s already been answered somewhere else. If you have adressed the issue before maybe you could point me in the right direction? Thanks.

i’ll have a stab

as stated above the rules of perfect rep and when to stop each set are:

1 - max force point or when you can’t accelerate the bar as fast as you can…this is more of a feel type situation

and

2 - max point force or when actual bar speed slows down

now for tradiational lifting fialure can be decribed as many things: concentric, eccentric, isometric failure, technique breakdown and range of motion…when the form of one of these is broken then may be considered failure.

You’re problem seems to be range of motion so once range of motion is not 100% (i.e. chin to the bar)…if you can’t even get 1 rep like this then you need to work on your retractors and depressors (lower traps mainly) and maybe move to pulldowns in the interim.

[quote]i’ll have a stab

as stated above the rules of perfect rep and when to stop each set are:

1 - max force point or when you can’t accelerate the bar as fast as you can…this is more of a feel type situation

and

2 - max point force or when actual bar speed slows down

now for traditional lifting fialure can be decribed as many things: concentric, eccentric, isometric failure, technique breakdown and range of motion…when the form of one of these is broken then may be considered failure.

You’re problem seems to be range of motion so once range of motion is not 100% (i.e. chin to the bar)…if you can’t even get 1 rep like this then you need to work on your retractors and depressors (lower traps mainly) and maybe move to pulldowns in the interim.[/quote]

Thanks. But I think maybe you misread me. I can get plenty of reps with the chin above the bar. The problem occurs when I approach the end of the exercise. I’ve misjudged the max force point on several occasions because speed does not slow down at all until I reach a dead stop all of a sudden.

It’s like driving blind folded with the pedal to metal towards a brick wall. I’m just guessing when to stop.

I see your point about the lower traps, but I actually think my weak point is my biceps. It’s pretty clear that they are what is stopping the movement.

They’re lagging in size because I have really long tendons and short muscle heads, and that will of course to some extent interfere with my strength as well. I’ve tried just about everything to make them bigger. I trained them hard. I trained them light. I only did indirect work. I tried high volume.

I tried high frequency. I tried high intensity.
Indirect work with a fairly high frequency seems to work best, but even then it’s slow going, and the indirect approach strengthens my back further, so I think I’m pretty much fucked when it comes to solving this problem.

What I was hoping for was actually some sort of mental trick that would enable me to better understand when to quit.

Hey Thib, looking for some advice on proper programming for cardio with weights.

I’m doing Badass 3x a week (upper, lower, upper). I am doing this along with running, swimming, and ruck marching (prepping for special forces). This is what I came up with:

1 - Upper (followed by 2 mile run for time)
2 - Fun run (3-5 miles)
3 - Lower (followed by swim)
4 - Fun run (3-5 miles)
5 - Upper (followed by interval session)
6 - Ruck march (3-12 miles, progressing with heavier/longer distances week to week)
7 - Off

Note: I put swim instead of intervals after Day 3/Lower to give my running a break. Thanks for any help.

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Hey Thib, looking for some advice on proper programming for cardio with weights.

I’m doing Badass 3x a week (upper, lower, upper). I am doing this along with running, swimming, and ruck marching (prepping for special forces). This is what I came up with:

1 - Upper (followed by 2 mile run for time)
2 - Fun run (3-5 miles)
3 - Lower (followed by swim)
4 - Fun run (3-5 miles)
5 - Upper (followed by interval session)
6 - Ruck march (3-12 miles, progressing with heavier/longer distances week to week)
7 - Off

Note: I put swim instead of intervals after Day 3/Lower to give my running a break. Thanks for any help.[/quote]

I’ll first mention that progress when attempting to max out on cardiovascular capacity and strength will be hard. I’m not saying that you can’t progress both ways at the same time, but that you will not progress optimally in either capacities by training both of them hard.

But in your situation I guess you don’t have much choice.

Some recommendations…

  1. Drop the run on day 2
  2. Put the interval session on day 3 (instead of the swim)
  3. Put the swim on day 5 (instead for the interval session)
  4. Have two rest days during the week

I don’t like to do a cardio session where the upper body is heavily involved on a lower body day, especially if you have 2 upper body sessions in the week.

So a better schedule would look like:

1 - Upper (followed by 2 mile run for time)
2 - Lower (followed by intervals)
3 - OFF
4 - Upper (followed by swim session)
5 - Fun run (3-5 miles)
6 - Ruck march (3-12 miles, progressing with heavier/longer distances week to week)
7 - Off

OR…

1 - Upper (followed by 2 mile run for time)
2 - Lower (followed by intervals)
3 - OFF
4 - Fun run (3-5 miles)
5 - Upper (followed by swim session)
6 - Ruck march (3-12 miles, progressing with heavier/longer distances week to week)
7 - Off

[quote]captaincalvert wrote:They’re lagging in size because I have really long tendons and short muscle heads, and that will of course to some extent interfere with my strength as well. I’ve tried just about everything to make them bigger. I trained them hard. I trained them light. I only did indirect work. I tried high volume.

I tried high frequency. I tried high intensity.
Indirect work with a fairly high frequency seems to work best, but even then it’s slow going…so I think I’m pretty much fucked when it comes to solving this problem. [/quote]

This is one of the best descriptions of how genetics play in exercise (for any bodyparts). All the methods and approaches do not alter this fundamental truth. The realization is quite liberating, actually, as fully understanding it removes any of the holy grail searches, and rather, permits one to focus on exercise preferences, not mythologies.

Roy

Thibs,

Is there any particular reason you are responding to everyone but me? Was my question stupid, or offensive in any way? I hope I haven’t offended you. If I have, I didn’t intend to. I have nothing but respect for your knowledge and your willingness to help people here free of charge.