I truly understand your confusion. For 50 years, it has been preached to go to failure via brief, high intensity exercise and now a complete change of heart. I too would like a more detailed explanation for the change other than what appears to be a chance discovery???..that contradicts what they taught for so long! I guess I am looking for a scientific explanation based on incontrovertible evidence. I really do not comprehend how the 30 second negatives then 10 positives and 30 seconds negative at a fast pace between exercises all work in unison to provide maximum muscle stimulation and growth. I need a simple break down step by step how it all worksā¦
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Good question, Steveā¦After more than 50 years, a complete 180ā¦Honestly I smell a rat!!..Itās all wrapped in trying to sell an e-book along with a very pricey supplement line that just so happens to be put out by one of the advertisers for this web siteā¦Just sayināā¦Let the buyer beware!!!
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Hi Steve and others,
Having done some research on.my own, I realize that going to failure means that the muscle is fatiqued - but the nervous system keeps on firing at it head on - since you are trying to do another rep. This results in an unnecessary wear on the nervous system, resulting in a longer recovery period (for the nervous system) though the muscles are already recovered and prepared for another round after 48-72 hours. Generally speaking.
This is probably why NTF is the way to go (and has always been). Do keep in mind that the term āgoing to failureā varies depending on your perception of it. Some trainees give up when the excercise is becoming hard, which obviously is too soon for any inroad to occur.
I think someone else (average_al?) has already mentioned this in other words, in another thread.
I am not implying that Dr. Darden is insincere, because I honestly do not believe it. I respect his opinion immensely. I am just do not have a good understanding of the physiology of the program, which is what I am longing for. A basic rational understanding the mechanism in place.
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Please explain how the 30 seconds negative causes more growth than a 30 second positive? Why is it important to go quickly between exercises? Why two rounds of 30 second negatives? Why not one 30 second positive (as in 30-30-30) instead of relatively fast 10 reps? In the past, Dr. Darden has recommended 4 seconds positive and 4 seconds negative. What is the rationale for this new strategy? If Dr. Darden has provided it, I remain perplexed.
I believe that the only products you see advertised on the T-Nation web site are from Biotest. As far as I can tell, that is because T-Nation and Biotest are owned by the same people.
I thought it was pretty obvious that the business model here is to provide lots of content and discussion boards for free, in order to draw an audience that is predisposed to buy supplements. You can skip the supplements and still participate. But the availability of all the free stuff depends on the continued success of the supplement lines.
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Sure, I respectfully get how it worksā¦But wait a minute, Alā¦The e-book wasnāt freeā¦Sure, U can skip the supps, but itās stated U would do better if U bought suppsā¦Discussions and info for free can be had ANYWHERE on the internet. ā¦Once again, Caveat Emptor !!!
== Scott==
Not to failure seems to make sense at the moment but it certainly hasnāt been the way to go in the past. I remember some talking about not going to failure but it seems failure was the golden goal . I often thought failure and beyond was over kill because it would put your body in a position thatās really hard to recover from , young or old, but Iād just go for it anyway as it seemed so many others lived by that . This new not to failure my just be the ticket for us old timers who donāt recover like we used to! Iām anxious to know how itās working for you younger folks!
Fair point that the book isnāt free. In the past, there have always been some articles that incorporated recommendations for supplements, but the articles have typically been free. Maybe this breaks new ground? It certainly provides a way for some authors to pick up additional income.
I see that Christian Thibaudeau just published an article on T-Nation called āThe Best Workout Plan for Natural Liftersā. Who wouldnāt want to know that? To my disappointment, if you want to see the full details of the program, you have to pay about $10 for his ebook. Coincidence?
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Iām pretty sure you will not be getting that from anyone anytime soon. The scientific understanding of how training works is still evolving, and isnāt nearly complete enough or certain enough to allow for definitive statements about why something does or does not work. At best, someone might be willing to speculate on why they think this does or does not fit into existing theories. But incontrovertible evidenceā¦ not likely.
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For me, I never thought of failure as the goal or the end in itselfā¦ to first inroadā¦and eventually adaptationā¦ and way back when AJ acknowledged that failure was not a requirement but that it was difficult to measure āalmost failureāā¦ what creates deep inroad is continuous tension and no āon/offingāā¦ harder to āon/offā during the initial and final negative, as you are slowly loweringā¦ you could say that Dr. Darden is changing his tune to sell books or supplements, or, you could say that it takes a great deal of character to acknowledge that he may have erred in the pastā¦ doesnāt invalidate previous but perhaps supplies missing piece to the puzzle? I donāt claim to know but as you can see, Iām trying it outā¦ not to prove or disprove anythingā¦ My results may suffer from any number of variables (thatās why science uses large samplings) such as inadequate sleep, age, poor genetics etc etcā¦ and again, at the end of the dayā¦ exercise, donāt hurt yourself, stay functional into your old age if at all possibleā¦ and enjoy life!
Always enjoy your well thought out repliesā¦your experience and wisdom showsā¦
Thanks Scott! As young as a 46 year old can be (or as the 100 y.o. lady said when being asked how it felt to be that old: āI am all agesā!). LOL
Yes, I will get back with a new bioimpedance measurement - after having tried 30-10-30 NTF for 4 weeks. But, I apply my own take on this. More like 45-60 secs inbetween excercises, and will continue with pre-exhaust specialization routines to failure on one muscle group every workout (currently legs until they give up).
Guys,
I was somewhat skeptical myself of 30-10-30, until I saw with my own eyes what my son, Tyler, achieved in 34 days.
Tim Patterson, who is an old friend from my Nautilus days and he worked as my right-hand man for two years, suggested that Tyler and I try Plazma and Mag-10. (Tim is behind BioTest and he manufactures all their supplements, and he produces the T-Nation website.) We did try the supplements and we both started to feel and see some major differences in our strength and endurance.
Iāve written against various supplements repeatedly in the past. But these two products are different. And yes, they are expensive ā but in my opinion, they are of value.
Not training to failure? Iāve been applying it for more than 40 years at various times. But Iām telling you in my case, at my age (almost 78), 30-10-30 has been a real blessing on my joints, muscles, and overall health.
But hey guys, and I really mean this, you can still train to failure ā and apply it to 30-10-30. No one is going to STOP you. And Iāve already published some 30 books to help you reach your goals. All I say is BEWARE of overtraining.
But for the next year, Iām going to be writing more articles and materials on how to keep applying 30-10-30 for various parts of your body. So come on guys, open your mind and give some of these new ideas a fair trial.
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== Scott ==
I think itās an example of Dr. Dardenās great character and openness . Instead of sitting on his laurels as so many do at his age heās still working to give us what he sees as an improvement over the old ways !
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thanks Scott for your reply, but in putting in only part of my quoteā¦ I used the terms āerred in the pastā but went on to say this does not invalidate but perhaps adds a missing pieceā¦ and I take responsibility for not choosing words betterā¦ best to everyoneā¦
Sorry to have cut your statement short Ricky, my stupidity.
Scott
Not at all. Enjoy all your posts.
Thank for your response.
Perfectly written