[quote]randman wrote:
Shaq and Kobe were both Alpha Males. [/quote]
Kobe’s average record without Shaq or Pau Gasol: 40-42
Lebron’s average record without Shaq or Pau Gasol: 50-32
OHMYGODKOBEISSOFUCKINGALPHA!!!
Before, we go further into a discourse in which we will inevitably misconstrue the other’s opinions and/or strawman the shit out of each other, I want to make it clear that I REALLY DO UNDERSTAND that argument that you are making. I read the entire Bill Simmons book and all 800000 footnotes, and look, I agree with you for the most part.
Remember that Andrew Bynum/Tony Parker shitfest, and the argument about being the 2nd-best player on a championship team and all that nonsense? I agree totally that players should be largely judged on how much they contribute to championship teams. That is why I will totally agree that, as of this moment, Kobe is “greater” than Lebron. Hands down.
Agreements aside, here is where you are a borderline down-syndrome case:
(1) Not including Oscar Roberton and Shaq among the “best players ever.” Please. Through 2009, Shaq was better than Kobe. Same amount of championships, was more dominant at his peak, etc. Kobe has passed him now, and the distance will certainly grow. But to not put Shaq and Oscar among the top 10 or 15 all-time is insane.
(2) Your comments that seem to imply Dwayne Wade as better than Oscar Robertson. Please, explain that before everybody on here loses all respect for your basketball knowledge.
(3) The assertion that Lebron has no chance to win a championship as an Alpha Dog. So… Kobe can be a “co-Alpha” with Shaq, but Lebron is demoted to beta status? Please. Lebron is better than Dwayne Wade or at least on the level where they are “co-Alphas” or “mutal Batmen” or whatever term you want to use.
Of course, maybe Lebron just isn’t built that way and he will reveal himself as a second-banana and then everything will easily be settled. But, to act like he has no chance to assert himself as unquestionably the go-to guy on the Heat, reel off 5 championships and lay claim to GOAT status… it’s possible. Unlikely, and I don’t think it will happen. But, it’s certainly possible.
(4) You keep saying that Lebron is a coward for running and everybody else is so tough and manly for sticking with these teams. “Nobody has done it before.” Let’s break down everybody else remotely in the conversation for GOAT and see who they had around them by year 6:
Jordan: Pippen, Grant, Jackson
Kareem: Oscar Robertson and 4-time all-star Bob Dandridge
Magic: Kareem, Cooper, Worthy, etc.
Bird: Parish, McHale, Maxwell, Archibald,
Russell: Like half the hall of fame + Red Auerbach
Kobe: Shaq + Phil Jackson
Hakeem: Ralph Sampson + Sleepy Floyd
Duncan: Dave Robinson + Popovich
Shaq: Penny early, then Kobe
Oscar: The only other player who never really got the strong supporting cast.
Wilt: Paul Arizin
West: Elgin Baylor
Who else do you want to put up there? (Side note: you’re really going to poo-poo Shaq and Big O as among the GOATs like it’s preposterous to put them in the top-10? I can see 11 and 12. But who else are you really putting in front of them besides those 10?)
No other top player has ever left the team he was drafted with in order to win a championship, because every other great player had championship pieces already around him by year 6, and in most cases, had already played with another Hall of Famer by year 6. So, it’s kind of ridiculous to say what these guys would or wouldn’t do, because nobody really knows.
As a final note: can we all agree to stop using “Alpha,” “Beta,” “Batman,” “Robin,” etc., it’s getting a little weird and creepy.
