[quote]randman wrote:
He wasn’t good enough to win a championship as the Alpha Dog and quit trying and decided to “become” part of the supporting cast to Wade’s team. Stop trying to manipulate reality. This is and always WILL BE Wade’s team. Lebron is part of the supporting cast now. You got it backwards.
[/quote]
Agree to resume argument on this halfway through the season?
Haha check this out.
http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/father-beasley-traded-for-looking-like-delonte-28665
Apparently the reason M. Beasley was traded to MIN from MIA was b/ 'Bron complained he looked like Delonte West.
And why would LeBron want to distance himself from a guy visually associated with Delonte West?
Yep…
Honestly though this tid bit of gossip about West porking Gloria James is starting to look more than a malicious rumor…
Delonte carries an arsenal in his guitar case. Don’t put anything past him…
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Haha check this out.
http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/father-beasley-traded-for-looking-like-delonte-28665
Apparently the reason M. Beasley was traded to MIN from MIA was b/ 'Bron complained he looked like Delonte West.
And why would LeBron want to distance himself from a guy visually associated with Delonte West?
Yep…
Honestly though this tid bit of gossip about West porking Gloria James is starting to look more than a malicious rumor…[/quote]
There is no way that’s true. NO WAY.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
[quote]randman wrote:
He wasn’t good enough to win a championship as the Alpha Dog and quit trying and decided to “become” part of the supporting cast to Wade’s team. Stop trying to manipulate reality. This is and always WILL BE Wade’s team. Lebron is part of the supporting cast now. You got it backwards.
[/quote]
Agree to resume argument on this halfway through the season?[/quote]
J, Rand might be off on certain things, but he’s right about this. This is gonna stay Wade’s team until he’s gone. Wade was gonna stay in Miami no matter what. James followed 'cause he pussied out and couldn’t do it on his own.
And, I’m really tired of hearing James’ team wasn’t good enoughin Cleveland. If you can get the best regular season record 2 years in a row you’re pretty fucking good. The facts are that James is the second banana on this squad, and if he tries to “leapfrog” Wade as top dog there will be a giant meltdown out there.
[quote]lavi wrote:
[quote]randman wrote:
[quote]LarryDavid wrote:
It’s not about being selfish, or being an asshole. Kobe’s gonna go down as the best player of his generation, and he’s definitely an asshole. He wasn’t serious about the Clippers, but best believe he was serious about the Bulls. He’s said in recent interviews that he wasn’t serious about the Clips but he was with the Bulls.
It’s about being a pussy. Kobe in LeBron’s position might have gone to Chicago. But not this team. He wants to be the best player ever. Winning is a big part of it, but not the whole thing. [Robert Horry is probably the winningest player of Michael Jordan’s generation–he’s also not even a Top 100 player in history]. You have to be better than the other players in the league and the undisputed #1 guy on your team.[/quote]
Thank you. Jtrinsey and Drewdines are just too dense to get this.[/quote]
Well I don’t get it either. I think winning should always be the top priority.
It’s a little different if you want to represent your hometown. But otherwise, it’s a team sport, and you guys are basically saying athletes should have a “me first” attitude [trying to prove how great they are]. Sorry but I don’t get it.[/quote]
It’s pretty simple really. Everyone has been crowing King James as the next potential GOAT masturbating furiuosly to his supposed greatness. He couldn’t not win as being “the man” on his own team so he went to a team where Wade is “the man”. He will never even be in the conversation as GOAT even if he does win won or more championships. It will always be Wade’s team.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
[quote]randman wrote:
Shaq and Kobe were both Alpha Males. [/quote]
Kobe’s average record without Shaq or Pau Gasol: 40-42
Lebron’s average record without Shaq or Pau Gasol: 50-32
OHMYGODKOBEISSOFUCKINGALPHA!!!
[/quote]
Your strawman arguments are getting really tiring. We’re not stipping out players and seeing whose more talented. Not playing that game with you. Your comparison makes no sense to the argument at hand is very weak.
The fact is, Kobe wins championships as first banana on his own team. MJ is considered GOAT because he was also Alpha Male of his own team for six championships. LeLoser will never even be in the conversation being second banana on WADE’s team. Not Lebron’s team, WADE’s team.
And Lebron can never even be considered as part of the GOAT discussion. Was that so hard to admit?
Talking greatest of all time. Shaq is not greater than Kobe on that scale. Neither is Oscar Robertson. Oscar can be argued to crack top ten. Shaq, no way.
Nope, not saying that at all. Because it isn’t true. That being said, Lebron is going to a team where Wade is “the man”. It’s his team. Lebron just denigrated his potential legacy greatly by making this childish decision.
Yes. that’s exactly what I’m saying. Especially since Kobe has also won the last 2 championships/Finals MVPs as the man on his own team. Lebron will NEVER be able to claim this. It’s Wade’s team. It’s Wade’s team. It’s Wade’s team. How many more times do I need to state the obvious.
Argue it all you want. Did you read the 30 plus posts I put out there by analysts and fans everywhere saying that this is Dwayne Wade’s team. Lebron went running to Wade’s team. That he can never ever be considered in the discussion of GOAT. That a true Alpha Male (such as Jordan and Kobe) would never join Wade. Ever.
That’s why we know Lebron is a Beta Male, second banana, ARod, etc. That’s why he probably will work out OK with Wade because I guarantee Wade will be the guy at the end of the game with the ball in his hands. Not Lebron.
In yours and a few other small minds possible alternate reality. For the majority of the sports analysts and fans. Never. No fucking way. This is Wade’s team and always will be. He already won a championship here as top dog. Lebron can not and will not take over that top status from Wade until Wade leaves the team or Lebron tries his luck somewhere else behind another Alpha Male since we know what a pussy he is.
What in the hell are you talking about??? Every team had an excellent supporting cast. Each team (except a couple years of Shaq and Kobe) had one clear Alpha Dog. And never did one of the top ten players of all time go running to another Alpha Male’s team when he couldn’t win it himself on his own team as his own Alpha Male. Name one. You can’t.
This list you just put together does nothing to the argument at hand: nothing.
Top 5 players all time: Jordan, Bill Russell, Kareem, Magic and Bird.
Next top 5 players all time: Wilt, Duncan, West, Robertson, Olajuwon.
Shaq falls in the 11 to 20 GOATs.
Coulda, shoulda, woulda. If they did, there relative GOAT status would have taken a major hit. Plain and simple. Stop arguing the fact that this doesn’t seriously dampen his GOAT status. Please, stop arguing it. You’re one of the only ones who is and it makes no sense.
[quote]
As a final note: can we all agree to stop using “Alpha,” “Beta,” “Batman,” “Robin,” etc., it’s getting a little weird and creepy.[/quote]
Alpha is creepy? Okay. Use your own words to describe the defacto leader to his team and his supporting cast. Like in Miami’s case, Defacto Leader = Wade. Supporting Cast and Reigning Pussy = Lebron.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
[quote]randman wrote:
He wasn’t good enough to win a championship as the Alpha Dog and quit trying and decided to “become” part of the supporting cast to Wade’s team. Stop trying to manipulate reality. This is and always WILL BE Wade’s team. Lebron is part of the supporting cast now. You got it backwards.
[/quote]
Agree to resume argument on this halfway through the season?[/quote]
Let me repeat. THIS WILL ALWAYS BE WADE’s TEAM. ALWAYS. Lebron = Pussy, Beta Male, Second Banana, No Killer Instinct; no argument. He chose the easy way out. He couldn’t lead a team on his own with a great supporting cast.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
[quote]randman wrote:
Kobe and Jordan almost always have to be great every night.
[/quote]
Really? You’re still going to make that argument after Game 7? Kobe couldn’t even get his team to the playoffs without Jackson and Gasol. Jordan couldn’t beat the Pistons without Pippen and Jackson.
No great player has ever done it alone. The closest anybody has come was probably Hakeem in 94. Kobe and Jordan both played with Hall of Famers and the best coach ever. So don’t act like they were never picked up by their teammates. [/quote]
Do you understand the term “ALMOST” always. That’s why I said it that way. I can point to a couple of finals games against Seattle where Jordan went 4 for 19 in game and 5 for 19 in game 6 and his great supporting cast helped him win the championship.
How many times do you need to hear me say that I AGREE with you that you need a great supporting cast. What you are not willing to admit is that Lebron is PART of the supporting cast now on Wade’s team and willing took the easy way out instead of being his own man on his own team.
[quote]randman wrote:
[quote]lavi wrote:
[quote]randman wrote:
[quote]LarryDavid wrote:
It’s not about being selfish, or being an asshole. Kobe’s gonna go down as the best player of his generation, and he’s definitely an asshole. He wasn’t serious about the Clippers, but best believe he was serious about the Bulls. He’s said in recent interviews that he wasn’t serious about the Clips but he was with the Bulls.
It’s about being a pussy. Kobe in LeBron’s position might have gone to Chicago. But not this team. He wants to be the best player ever. Winning is a big part of it, but not the whole thing. [Robert Horry is probably the winningest player of Michael Jordan’s generation–he’s also not even a Top 100 player in history]. You have to be better than the other players in the league and the undisputed #1 guy on your team.[/quote]
Thank you. Jtrinsey and Drewdines are just too dense to get this.[/quote]
Well I don’t get it either. I think winning should always be the top priority.
It’s a little different if you want to represent your hometown. But otherwise, it’s a team sport, and you guys are basically saying athletes should have a “me first” attitude [trying to prove how great they are]. Sorry but I don’t get it.[/quote]
It’s pretty simple really. Everyone has been crowing King James as the next potential GOAT masturbating furiuosly to his supposed greatness. He couldn’t not win as being “the man” on his own team so he went to a team where Wade is “the man”. He will never even be in the conversation as GOAT even if he does win won or more championships. It will always be Wade’s team.[/quote]
Maybe. But I guess my thinking is… So what?
Athletes aren’t supposed to really care about that anyway. They are supposed to want to win as much as possible. Legacy, shmegacy! 
I guess what I’m saying is. Maybe he isn’t GOAT. That doesn’t make him a “loser” and doesn’t make me hate him. (I do greatly dislike his ridiculous ego and immaturity though).
Also, how do we know that Wade is the man? Wade is 1 of 2 returning players on that team. It’s a brand new team that happens to be wearing the same jersey as Wade’s old team. Yes he’s the fan favorite for now, but that doesn’t mean anything on the court, and can certainly change.
Maybe there can be 2 “Batmans” (sorry jtrinsey)? I think you said that was the case with Kobe/Shaq in 01 and 02? I think being 1 of 2 “Batmans” on a team that wins 10 championships would be a pretty special legacy. (Obviously it’s extremely unlikely that they’re going to win 10 championships, but I don’t think that’s any less likely than LeBron overshadowing MJ on his own either)
[quote]lavi wrote:
Maybe. But I guess my thinking is… So what?
Athletes aren’t supposed to really care about that anyway. They are supposed to want to win as much as possible. Legacy, shmegacy!
[/quote]
So what? That’s what Lebron thinks probably and that’s why he went. I guarantee it meant everything to Jordan and does mean everything to Kobe. Alas why they would never willing be second banana on any team.
That is indisputably Wade’s team, Wade’s town, Wade’s legacy. He is the dominant male who won the championship there. He’s still in his prime. Now LeLoser, also entering his prime, had to go to where another Alpha Male was to try to win cuz he do it as the undisputed leader. Pussy move.
[quote]
Maybe there can be 2 “Batmans” (sorry jtrinsey)? I think you said that was the case with Kobe/Shaq in 01 and 02? I think being 1 of 2 “Batmans” on a team that wins 10 championships would be a pretty special legacy. (Obviously it’s extremely unlikely that they’re going to win 10 championships, but I don’t think that’s any less likely than LeBron overshadowing MJ on his own either)[/quote]
Lebron will NEVER be considered a Batman on Wade’s team by the majority of sports analysts or sports fans. Only a few of you who drink from the fountain of LeAdulation.
I added a little paragraph in my post. You are too quick 
I don’t like LeBron at all. All I’m saying is
[quote]lavi wrote:
I added a little paragraph in my post. You are too quick
I don’t like LeBron at all. All I’m saying is
Joining a team when you are calling yourself a King and a shitload of batshit crazy Lebron fans were trying to say he could compete for all time GOAT status and then going to a team where he WILL be second banana to Wade is why he’s a pussy. And why he’s hated by many now. Read the fucking Internet dude. Seriously.
For the same reasons that the Yankees will never be ARod’s team. It will always be Jeter’s team. Simplest analogy I can give. Wade has won a championship with Miami as “the man”. Lebron couldn’t do it as “the man” and didn’t choose another team where he would be “the man”. He chose a team where he could be more like “the woman”. Ha ha ha!!!
[quote]
3) You seem to again be saying that being first banana can be more important than winning. I guess all the players on the Olympic team except Kobe are beta-male pussies (Wade included). I guess we will just have to disagree here.[/quote]
I’m saying they are both VERY important when considering pecking order in GOAT status. And why Lebron is getting so fucking criticized because he crowned himself KING and has a bunch of misguided fans that were willing to grant him GOAT status before he accomplished anything. Now he will never be in that discussion because he ran to Miami to play second fiddle to Wade.
Any more questions???
Hmm. If we operate under the assumption that LeBron can’t be GOAT in Miami, then:
Is that a fair summation?
As to whether or not Lebron can be GOAT in Miami:
-What if it had been Kobe that joined the Heat instead of LeBron? Is there no scenario in which he could become “the man”?
-If the Kobe joined the Celtics, with their only returning player was Paul Pierce, could Kobe become “the man”? (If you ignored the whole rivalry thing :P)
-What if Kobe joined the Spurs in a similar scenario?
I know it’s not exactly the same thing as Kobe has already won rings. I’ll see if I can come up with a better analogy heh.
LeBron is going to regret not ‘deciding’ on the Knicks every time he steps inside Madison Square Garden.
[quote]lavi wrote:
Hmm. If we operate under the assumption that LeBron can’t be GOAT in Miami, then:
To be considered one of the greats of all time. It’s not only how much you win, it’s how you win. Robert Horry has 7 championship rings but is not even in the top 100 players of all time. Everyone was crowning this guy GOAT before he even won his first regular season MVP and still hasn’t accomplished shit in the playoffs. Now he goes to a team where he can NEVER be “the man” even on that team and the GOAT discussion goes out the window for good on Lebron.
Almost. I added color commentary to fill out your summation ;0
No freaking way. He never would. Neither would Jordan or Bird or Johnson in the same position.
In Pierce’s case, maybe; Dwayne Wade > Paul Pierce. But it would tarnish Kobe’s GOAT status for sure because it’s Paul Pierce’s team.
Again, Kobe wouldn’t join a team where one dude is considered as “the man” on his team. Neither would Jordan. Definitely NOT in their prime years.
No, he wouldn’t. Tim Duncan is one of the 10 greatest players of all time and that was HIS team. If Kobe joined Duncan both in their primes after Kobe couldn’t win it on his own he would not be EVEN CLOSE to top ten status. This shit matters. A lot. When you rank players of all time greatness.
Again, he wouldn’t even do it because it’s not in his DNA or Jordan’s DNA. They have the killer instinct. Lebron doesn’t. Plain and simple.
[quote]
I know it’s not exactly the same thing as Kobe has already won rings. I’ll see if I can come up with a better analogy heh.[/quote]
You can try but the logic I’m putting forth is rock solid and is shared by many. All you fuckers disagreeing can go out and read, see and hear with your senses for God sakes. It’s not hard to find analysts, fans, etc agreeing with what I’m saying. It’s plastered all over the Internet.
Also a thought that should be emphasized out there: What if LeBron doesn’t care about becoming GOAT or even being on the GOAT list? I know his fans were painting his potential to be GOAT when he first came onto the scene and even now but they’re fans, nothing more, and they certainly don’t speak on LeBron’s behalf.
[quote]randman wrote:
How many times do you need to hear me say that I AGREE with you that you need a great supporting cast. What you are not willing to admit is that Lebron is PART of the supporting cast now on Wade’s team and willing took the easy way out instead of being his own man on his own team.[/quote]
Fair nuff. I think that he thinks he’s going to be the man in Miami. I think it’s a possibility. Right now, it’s just arguing about stuff nobody can prove. The next few years will determine how Lebron fits in the pantheon. I think he’s pretty likely to get at least one title over the next few years- if for no other reason than that if Wade could win with Shaq, he can win with Bosh and James.
If that happens and he plays a purely supporting role, he winds up with a career comparable to Dr J, where he will always be talked about as one of the most memorable players ever, but ultimately not in the greatest of all time discussion.
I think it’s also possible that him and Wade find this weird sort of symbiotic relationship a la Kobe and Shaq, they take each others careers to new levels and they wind up with careers similar to Kobe and Shaq with Lebron in the Shaq mode of the fun, lovable physical freak of nature who ultimately can’t win without the assassin at shooting guard who can close games out.
Best case scenario for him is that he settles into a Magic Johnson, uber-facilitator role where he plays multiple positions, creates for his teammates, makes everybody around him better and can take over games for stretches at a time, and dominates the game by doing a little bit of everything. Complete with Magic’s somewhat-shaky jump shooting.
I think those 3 are the best comparisons for Lebron:
Dr. J: stealing this comparison from Simmons who made really good points. About how they both seemed to care the most about doing brilliant things on the basketball court, rather than that maniacally competitive streak. More than anything, Lebron has seemed to care about amazing people than purely winning. But has that changed after his choke in the playoffs and now going to Miami?
Shaq: I think this is the best comparison and where he will most likely end up. Both of these guys are physical freaks of nature unlike anybody else ever seen before. Both of them have always had other interests outside of basketball, and are criticized (probably fairly) for not working hard enough to fix the flaws in their game.
Like Shaq did, I think Lebron is too good and will be in the league for too long to not win a few titles, compile an incredible amount of individual stats, and have enough dominating playoff games/series not to be in the discussion of “among the greatest,” but ultimately will be just outside the top 10.
Magic: Let’s not forget that Magic took a while to find himself as a teammate in the NBA and took his share of heat for getting his coach fired. Like Magic, Lebron can play any position on the court and is at his best when creating in the open court, rather than as the Jordan/Kobe-esque 1-on-1 half-court killer. This is the best case scenario for Lebron, but he’s certainly talented enough to do it.
Personally, I’ll be rooting against Lebron, because I really don’t like the dude. And I’m hoping that the Durantula takes down Kobe too, because I still don’t like him. In the end, I’m really just more annoyed at Lebron for taking away from the Kobe hate.
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
LeBron is going to regret not ‘deciding’ on the Knicks every time he steps inside Madison Square Garden.[/quote]
I actually thought that was the dark horse towards the very end. His most logical choice for winning and furthering his GOAT status would have been Chicago for sure. He would have been “the man”. He would have had a great supporting cast. This gave him the best chance to win and obtain a mention in GOAT status.
I think he was honestly afraid and intimidated by Jordan’s shadow and that’s why he decided not to go. I still can’t believe he and his cronies thought it was good for his “image” and his “brand” to go to Miami with Wade and Bosh. I know he was thinking “all I got to do is win” to further my image. He could not be more wrong. It’s not just winning. It’s how you win.
You guys have been throwing argument after argument about Kobe’s GOAT status because of the first three championships with Shaq, never mind that he’s wond two completely as “the man” now in a row and is working on a third. You all are now all of a sudden not using the same measuring stick for LeLoser.
He NEVER won a championship and is now going to a team where Wade is the “man” and they also have Bosh. They all colluded together in their primes to make this happen and now all of a sudden the measuring stick you were bashing Kobe over the head with mysteriously disappears with Lebron going to Miami? Are you kidding me?
Charles Barkley makes the same argument. Don’t bash Kobe over the head with Shaq after what Lebron is doing now moving to Miami. In Lebron’s case it’s much worse cuz he NEVER won a championship as the man and now goes scurrying to Miami on a team where “the man” Wade has won one championship as the leader.
[quote]randman wrote:
It’s not hard to find analysts, fans, etc agreeing with what I’m saying. It’s plastered all over the Internet.
[/quote]
LOL c’mon man, let’s not use the, “because people say it’s true, it must be that way.” There are lots of people that will tell you that Jeter is better than ARod. We call those people fools.
Besides, the talking heads on ESPN will say whatever they need to in order to stir up controversy. I wouldn’t put much stock in what they say.