I thought some of you might find this as interesting as I did. I’d sure like to talk to him about his missions. I am sure he has a perspective very few people are privy to in their lives…
He’s the last surviving member of the crew, seems very together and very intelligent.
I just watched an interview on PBS with Major Van Kirk.
It was really insightful to get the perspective of someone who actually experienced the War first hand…from his days with the 8th Air Force over Germany to his almost 4 years with the 509th Composite Group…to the dropping of the Bomb over Hiroshima.
It’s interesting that even until today, people debate whether the Bomb actually saved lives or not (it’s even been debated on this site).
Major Van Kirk has no doubt that lives were saved by avoiding a direct assault in the Main Islands.
And the debate continues…
Mufasa
(CNN and PBS? Damn “MSLM”!)
Mufasa
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
I just watched an interview on PBS with Major Van Kirk.
It was really insightful to get the perspective of someone who actually experienced the War first hand…from his days with the 8th Air Force over Germany to his almost 4 years with the 509th Composite Group…to the dropping of the Bomb over Hiroshima.
It’s interesting that even until today, people debate whether the Bomb actually saved lives or not (it’s even been debated on this site).
Major Van Kirk has no doubt that lives were saved by avoiding a direct assault in the Main Islands.
And the debate continues…
Mufasa[/quote]
What I found interesting was at the end of the interview, his story about the Japanese Soldier going home to look for his house… That shows that he ‘gets it’, the impact that is.
Now according to the interview the other alternative and indeed was apparently in the planning stages was an invasion of Japan.
If that’s true, it may have very well saved lives. It’s tough to says without both scenarios having played out, but there is an argument there.
I personally am not committing to one side or the other, on the argument. Both sides have points. And what did in fact happen was tragic even if it were necessary. When you dig in deeper into the details of historic events, the story is often different then the general understanding of the events.
I am currently reading a very, very detailed biography of George Washington. The insights on the revolution are fascinating. The American Revolution was a rich man’s revolution.
I wasn’t as interested in taking a side as I was fascinated with the interview. I have long been fascinated with the whole Manhattan Project.
Yep…there are people who are VERY passionate on BOTH sides of the Bomb’s “Saving Lives” debate.
Even though one Project was one of War (The Manhatten Project) and one of Exploration, Discovery and National Pride (the race to the Moon) both showed what we can do as a Nation when we set are minds to it. (Both are also FASCINATING stories).
I haven’t read AS much on the Revolution itself (I’ve read a lot about Washington)…but I hope to rectify that.
Mufasa
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
(CNN and PBS? Damn “MSLM”!)
Mufasa[/quote]
By that comment are you actually going to take the preposterous position that those two, especially PBS are not liberal?
Come on Mufasa I know you are smarter than that.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
(CNN and PBS? Damn “MSLM”!)
Mufasa[/quote]
By that comment are you actually going to take the preposterous position that those two, especially PBS are not liberal?
Come on Mufasa I know you are smarter than that.[/quote]
My bad, Pat. Sorry for making the comment.
I wouldn’t want to see this thread hi-jacked.
Mufasa
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
(CNN and PBS? Damn “MSLM”!)
Mufasa[/quote]
By that comment are you actually going to take the preposterous position that those two, especially PBS are not liberal?
Come on Mufasa I know you are smarter than that.[/quote]
My bad, Pat. Sorry for making the comment.
I wouldn’t want to see this thread hi-jacked.
Mufasa[/quote]
No, you don’t want it hijacked you just want to drop a snide remark about the media not being liberal and hope that I (and people like me) will just sit there and not respond.
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
It’s interesting that even until today, people debate whether the Bomb actually saved lives or not (it’s even been debated on this site).
Major Van Kirk has no doubt that lives were saved by avoiding a direct assault in the Main Islands.
[/quote]
Dropping the bomb or directly assaulting the Main Islands: were those really the only viable alternatives for ending the war in a realistically satisfactory manner? Or were those the only viable alternatives for getting “unconditional surrender”?
Would leaving the Japanese military in power on their home islands, with a peace deal that basically amounted to defeat for them albeit not “unconditional surrender”, have been such a bad thing that several million more human deaths were a sensible price to pay to get a more complete victory? Especially considering that the Japanese military government was not the only big evil left in the world?
[quote]NealRaymond2 wrote:
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
It’s interesting that even until today, people debate whether the Bomb actually saved lives or not (it’s even been debated on this site).
Major Van Kirk has no doubt that lives were saved by avoiding a direct assault in the Main Islands.
[/quote]
Dropping the bomb or directly assaulting the Main Islands: were those really the only viable alternatives for ending the war in a realistically satisfactory manner? Or were those the only viable alternatives for getting “unconditional surrender”?
Would leaving the Japanese military in power on their home islands, with a peace deal that basically amounted to defeat for them albeit not “unconditional surrender”, have been such a bad thing that several million more human deaths were a sensible price to pay to get a more complete victory? Especially considering that the Japanese military government was not the only big evil left in the world?
[/quote]
I’m probably not going to get into it too much deeper than this, but, if you understood the mindset of the Japanese military government at that time, you would understand that UNCONDITIONAL surrender is absolutely the ONLY option available to us after getting into the war. There are still hold-offs calling for the reinstatement of the emperor today whose political “rallies” are enough to send chills down your spine. If they ever somehow take power here again, I will head strait back to Texas, never mind I’ve dedicated over 10 years of my life here and thus far I have no plans to return.
Another point not related to this comment: You cannot even have the conversation we are nibbling at the edges of in this country. Although they love Americans, the Japanese are indoctrinated from a very early age with an extremely one-sided version of what happened here, that basically amounts to, “Hey, man, we were just standing around holding hands and singing ‘Imagine’ when all of a sudden these Americans showed up and dropped the atomic bomb on us!!!” The Rape of Nanking is a story that has been blown all out of proportion, etc, etc.
The general refusal of the Japanese to own up to certain important realities is one of my biggest problems with living here. But whatever…
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]NealRaymond2 wrote:
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
It’s interesting that even until today, people debate whether the Bomb actually saved lives or not (it’s even been debated on this site).
Major Van Kirk has no doubt that lives were saved by avoiding a direct assault in the Main Islands.
[/quote]
Dropping the bomb or directly assaulting the Main Islands: were those really the only viable alternatives for ending the war in a realistically satisfactory manner? Or were those the only viable alternatives for getting “unconditional surrender”?
Would leaving the Japanese military in power on their home islands, with a peace deal that basically amounted to defeat for them albeit not “unconditional surrender”, have been such a bad thing that several million more human deaths were a sensible price to pay to get a more complete victory? Especially considering that the Japanese military government was not the only big evil left in the world?
[/quote]
I’m probably not going to get into it too much deeper than this, but, if you understood the mindset of the Japanese military government at that time, you would understand that UNCONDITIONAL surrender is absolutely the ONLY option available to us after getting into the war. There are still hold-offs calling for the reinstatement of the emperor today whose political “rallies” are enough to send chills down your spine. If they ever somehow take power here again, I will head strait back to Texas, never mind I’ve dedicated over 10 years of my life here and thus far I have no plans to return.
Another point not related to this comment: You cannot even have the conversation we are nibbling at the edges of in this country. Although they love Americans, the Japanese are indoctrinated from a very early age with an extremely one-sided version of what happened here, that basically amounts to, “Hey, man, we were just standing around holding hands and singing ‘Imagine’ when all of a sudden these Americans showed up and dropped the atomic bomb on us!!!” The Rape of Nanking is a story that has been blown all out of proportion, etc, etc.
The general refusal of the Japanese to own up to certain important realities is one of my biggest problems with living here. But whatever…[/quote]
This.
X 1 million.
And, I find the “debate” about if lives were saved a joke.
Only someone who knows jack about Japanese culture could ever argue that lives weren’t saved.[/quote]
Now THESE are some interesting perspectives…
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]NealRaymond2 wrote:
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
It’s interesting that even until today, people debate whether the Bomb actually saved lives or not (it’s even been debated on this site).
Major Van Kirk has no doubt that lives were saved by avoiding a direct assault in the Main Islands.
[/quote]
Dropping the bomb or directly assaulting the Main Islands: were those really the only viable alternatives for ending the war in a realistically satisfactory manner? Or were those the only viable alternatives for getting “unconditional surrender”?
Would leaving the Japanese military in power on their home islands, with a peace deal that basically amounted to defeat for them albeit not “unconditional surrender”, have been such a bad thing that several million more human deaths were a sensible price to pay to get a more complete victory? Especially considering that the Japanese military government was not the only big evil left in the world?
[/quote]
I’m probably not going to get into it too much deeper than this, but, if you understood the mindset of the Japanese military government at that time, you would understand that UNCONDITIONAL surrender is absolutely the ONLY option available to us after getting into the war. There are still hold-offs calling for the reinstatement of the emperor today whose political “rallies” are enough to send chills down your spine. If they ever somehow take power here again, I will head strait back to Texas, never mind I’ve dedicated over 10 years of my life here and thus far I have no plans to return.
Another point not related to this comment: You cannot even have the conversation we are nibbling at the edges of in this country. Although they love Americans, the Japanese are indoctrinated from a very early age with an extremely one-sided version of what happened here, that basically amounts to, “Hey, man, we were just standing around holding hands and singing ‘Imagine’ when all of a sudden these Americans showed up and dropped the atomic bomb on us!!!” The Rape of Nanking is a story that has been blown all out of proportion, etc, etc.
The general refusal of the Japanese to own up to certain important realities is one of my biggest problems with living here. But whatever…[/quote]
This.
X 1 million.
And, I find the “debate” about if lives were saved a joke.
Only someone who knows jack about Japanese culture could ever argue that lives weren’t saved.[/quote]
Now THESE are some interesting perspectives…[/quote]
Pat, without giving out too much personal info, let’s just say that I live with this issue 24/7 pretty much. Cortes too, but to a lesser extent, I’d assume.[/quote]
I was going to note this about Chushin but decided to respect his privacy and held off saying anything. But yes, he is smack dab in the middle of what is pretty much the very nexus of the indoctrination machine. It’s actually something I wanted to talk with you about last time we hung out, Chushin, but I was not sure how safe a topic it would be to breach on our first meeting. Would loooove to sit down with you and discuss this when we get together again, though.
I’d be happy to discuss my perspective on this a bit more here, if anyone else is interested in hearing about it, but can’t promise too much, as my second son was just born a few hours ago and I’m a bit busy right now, to say the least, praise God!
[quote]Cortes wrote:
I was going to note this about Chushin but decided to respect his privacy and held off saying anything. But yes, he is smack dab in the middle of what is pretty much the very nexus of the indoctrination machine. It’s actually something I wanted to talk with you about last time we hung out, Chushin, but I was not sure how safe a topic it would be to breach on our first meeting. Would loooove to sit down with you and discuss this when we get together again, though.
I’d be happy to discuss my perspective on this a bit more here, if anyone else is interested in hearing about it, but can’t promise too much, as my second son was just born a few hours ago and I’m a bit busy right now, to say the least, praise God![/quote]
First of all, congratulations.
Second, I would be interested in hearing about the cultural ‘dark-side’ of Japan, shall I say.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]NealRaymond2 wrote:
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
It’s interesting that even until today, people debate whether the Bomb actually saved lives or not (it’s even been debated on this site).
Major Van Kirk has no doubt that lives were saved by avoiding a direct assault in the Main Islands.
[/quote]
Dropping the bomb or directly assaulting the Main Islands: were those really the only viable alternatives for ending the war in a realistically satisfactory manner? Or were those the only viable alternatives for getting “unconditional surrender”?
Would leaving the Japanese military in power on their home islands, with a peace deal that basically amounted to defeat for them albeit not “unconditional surrender”, have been such a bad thing that several million more human deaths were a sensible price to pay to get a more complete victory? Especially considering that the Japanese military government was not the only big evil left in the world?
[/quote]
I’m probably not going to get into it too much deeper than this, but, if you understood the mindset of the Japanese military government at that time, you would understand that UNCONDITIONAL surrender is absolutely the ONLY option available to us after getting into the war. There are still hold-offs calling for the reinstatement of the emperor today whose political “rallies” are enough to send chills down your spine. If they ever somehow take power here again, I will head strait back to Texas, never mind I’ve dedicated over 10 years of my life here and thus far I have no plans to return.
Another point not related to this comment: You cannot even have the conversation we are nibbling at the edges of in this country. Although they love Americans, the Japanese are indoctrinated from a very early age with an extremely one-sided version of what happened here, that basically amounts to, “Hey, man, we were just standing around holding hands and singing ‘Imagine’ when all of a sudden these Americans showed up and dropped the atomic bomb on us!!!” The Rape of Nanking is a story that has been blown all out of proportion, etc, etc.
The general refusal of the Japanese to own up to certain important realities is one of my biggest problems with living here. But whatever…[/quote]
This.
X 1 million.
And, I find the “debate” about if lives were saved a joke.
Only someone who knows jack about Japanese culture could ever argue that lives weren’t saved.[/quote]
Now THESE are some interesting perspectives…[/quote]
Pat, without giving out too much personal info, let’s just say that I live with this issue 24/7 pretty much. Cortes too, but to a lesser extent, I’d assume.[/quote]
I was going to note this about Chushin but decided to respect his privacy and held off saying anything. But yes, he is smack dab in the middle of what is pretty much the very nexus of the indoctrination machine. It’s actually something I wanted to talk with you about last time we hung out, Chushin, but I was not sure how safe a topic it would be to breach on our first meeting. Would loooove to sit down with you and discuss this when we get together again, though.
I’d be happy to discuss my perspective on this a bit more here, if anyone else is interested in hearing about it, but can’t promise too much, as my second son was just born a few hours ago and I’m a bit busy right now, to say the least, praise God![/quote]
Congratulations!
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]NealRaymond2 wrote:
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
It’s interesting that even until today, people debate whether the Bomb actually saved lives or not (it’s even been debated on this site).
Major Van Kirk has no doubt that lives were saved by avoiding a direct assault in the Main Islands.
[/quote]
Dropping the bomb or directly assaulting the Main Islands: were those really the only viable alternatives for ending the war in a realistically satisfactory manner? Or were those the only viable alternatives for getting “unconditional surrender”?
Would leaving the Japanese military in power on their home islands, with a peace deal that basically amounted to defeat for them albeit not “unconditional surrender”, have been such a bad thing that several million more human deaths were a sensible price to pay to get a more complete victory? Especially considering that the Japanese military government was not the only big evil left in the world?
[/quote]
I’m probably not going to get into it too much deeper than this, but, if you understood the mindset of the Japanese military government at that time, you would understand that UNCONDITIONAL surrender is absolutely the ONLY option available to us after getting into the war. There are still hold-offs calling for the reinstatement of the emperor today whose political “rallies” are enough to send chills down your spine. If they ever somehow take power here again, I will head strait back to Texas, never mind I’ve dedicated over 10 years of my life here and thus far I have no plans to return.
Another point not related to this comment: You cannot even have the conversation we are nibbling at the edges of in this country. Although they love Americans, the Japanese are indoctrinated from a very early age with an extremely one-sided version of what happened here, that basically amounts to, “Hey, man, we were just standing around holding hands and singing ‘Imagine’ when all of a sudden these Americans showed up and dropped the atomic bomb on us!!!” The Rape of Nanking is a story that has been blown all out of proportion, etc, etc.
The general refusal of the Japanese to own up to certain important realities is one of my biggest problems with living here. But whatever…[/quote]
This.
X 1 million.
And, I find the “debate” about if lives were saved a joke.
Only someone who knows jack about Japanese culture could ever argue that lives weren’t saved.[/quote]
Now THESE are some interesting perspectives…[/quote]
Pat, without giving out too much personal info, let’s just say that I live with this issue 24/7 pretty much. Cortes too, but to a lesser extent, I’d assume.[/quote]
Well, it’s up to you guys what you reveal or what you keep close to your vests. I certainly would be interested to hear more from the personal perspective. I sense the Japanese are, in general very sensitive and testy about WW2, no matter how long ago it was. I know that pride and honor are very entrenched in to many asian cultures unto the point of death. That it’s better to die honorable than to lose. An unconditional surrender, no matter how long ago and no matter how evil that emperor was, is still a bitter pill. to swallow.
When I was at the Pearl Harbor exhibit in Hawai’i was teaming with Japanese tourists. I’d say the ratio was 7:1 Japanese vs. anybody else. I was curious as to why, and I joked they were there to gloat. It may not be that much of a joke though, some may have been doing that very thing.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]NealRaymond2 wrote:
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
It’s interesting that even until today, people debate whether the Bomb actually saved lives or not (it’s even been debated on this site).
Major Van Kirk has no doubt that lives were saved by avoiding a direct assault in the Main Islands.
[/quote]
Dropping the bomb or directly assaulting the Main Islands: were those really the only viable alternatives for ending the war in a realistically satisfactory manner? Or were those the only viable alternatives for getting “unconditional surrender”?
Would leaving the Japanese military in power on their home islands, with a peace deal that basically amounted to defeat for them albeit not “unconditional surrender”, have been such a bad thing that several million more human deaths were a sensible price to pay to get a more complete victory? Especially considering that the Japanese military government was not the only big evil left in the world?
[/quote]
I’m probably not going to get into it too much deeper than this, but, if you understood the mindset of the Japanese military government at that time, you would understand that UNCONDITIONAL surrender is absolutely the ONLY option available to us after getting into the war. There are still hold-offs calling for the reinstatement of the emperor today whose political “rallies” are enough to send chills down your spine. If they ever somehow take power here again, I will head strait back to Texas, never mind I’ve dedicated over 10 years of my life here and thus far I have no plans to return.
Another point not related to this comment: You cannot even have the conversation we are nibbling at the edges of in this country. Although they love Americans, the Japanese are indoctrinated from a very early age with an extremely one-sided version of what happened here, that basically amounts to, “Hey, man, we were just standing around holding hands and singing ‘Imagine’ when all of a sudden these Americans showed up and dropped the atomic bomb on us!!!” The Rape of Nanking is a story that has been blown all out of proportion, etc, etc.
The general refusal of the Japanese to own up to certain important realities is one of my biggest problems with living here. But whatever…[/quote]
This.
X 1 million.
And, I find the “debate” about if lives were saved a joke.
Only someone who knows jack about Japanese culture could ever argue that lives weren’t saved.[/quote]
Now THESE are some interesting perspectives…[/quote]
Pat, without giving out too much personal info, let’s just say that I live with this issue 24/7 pretty much. Cortes too, but to a lesser extent, I’d assume.[/quote]
I was going to note this about Chushin but decided to respect his privacy and held off saying anything. But yes, he is smack dab in the middle of what is pretty much the very nexus of the indoctrination machine. It’s actually something I wanted to talk with you about last time we hung out, Chushin, but I was not sure how safe a topic it would be to breach on our first meeting. Would loooove to sit down with you and discuss this when we get together again, though.
I’d be happy to discuss my perspective on this a bit more here, if anyone else is interested in hearing about it, but can’t promise too much, as my second son was just born a few hours ago and I’m a bit busy right now, to say the least, praise God![/quote]
Congratulations!
[/quote]
Indeed, Congratulations… Occasionally, I get the bug for another kid, and then the ones I have currently start whining and that cures me for a couple of weeks… 
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]NealRaymond2 wrote:
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
It’s interesting that even until today, people debate whether the Bomb actually saved lives or not (it’s even been debated on this site).
Major Van Kirk has no doubt that lives were saved by avoiding a direct assault in the Main Islands.
[/quote]
Dropping the bomb or directly assaulting the Main Islands: were those really the only viable alternatives for ending the war in a realistically satisfactory manner? Or were those the only viable alternatives for getting “unconditional surrender”?
Would leaving the Japanese military in power on their home islands, with a peace deal that basically amounted to defeat for them albeit not “unconditional surrender”, have been such a bad thing that several million more human deaths were a sensible price to pay to get a more complete victory? Especially considering that the Japanese military government was not the only big evil left in the world?
[/quote]
I’m probably not going to get into it too much deeper than this, but, if you understood the mindset of the Japanese military government at that time, you would understand that UNCONDITIONAL surrender is absolutely the ONLY option available to us after getting into the war. There are still hold-offs calling for the reinstatement of the emperor today whose political “rallies” are enough to send chills down your spine. If they ever somehow take power here again, I will head strait back to Texas, never mind I’ve dedicated over 10 years of my life here and thus far I have no plans to return.
Another point not related to this comment: You cannot even have the conversation we are nibbling at the edges of in this country. Although they love Americans, the Japanese are indoctrinated from a very early age with an extremely one-sided version of what happened here, that basically amounts to, “Hey, man, we were just standing around holding hands and singing ‘Imagine’ when all of a sudden these Americans showed up and dropped the atomic bomb on us!!!” The Rape of Nanking is a story that has been blown all out of proportion, etc, etc.
The general refusal of the Japanese to own up to certain important realities is one of my biggest problems with living here. But whatever…[/quote]
This.
X 1 million.
And, I find the “debate” about if lives were saved a joke.
Only someone who knows jack about Japanese culture could ever argue that lives weren’t saved.[/quote]
Now THESE are some interesting perspectives…[/quote]
Pat, without giving out too much personal info, let’s just say that I live with this issue 24/7 pretty much. Cortes too, but to a lesser extent, I’d assume.[/quote]
I was going to note this about Chushin but decided to respect his privacy and held off saying anything. But yes, he is smack dab in the middle of what is pretty much the very nexus of the indoctrination machine. It’s actually something I wanted to talk with you about last time we hung out, Chushin, but I was not sure how safe a topic it would be to breach on our first meeting. Would loooove to sit down with you and discuss this when we get together again, though.
I’d be happy to discuss my perspective on this a bit more here, if anyone else is interested in hearing about it, but can’t promise too much, as my second son was just born a few hours ago and I’m a bit busy right now, to say the least, praise God![/quote]
Congratulations!
[/quote]
Indeed, Congratulations… Occasionally, I get the bug for another kid, and then the ones I have currently start whining and that cures me for a couple of weeks… :)[/quote]
Thanks, guys! He and mommy are both doing great, and I just brought number 1 son (who is three) to meet his little brother, which was a kind of funny experience. He’s the one who will have to do the most adjusting, after all this time as the center of the universe.
On-topic comments to follow.