Navigator on Enloa Gay interview

Okay, as briefly as I can muster:

Regarding Pat’s assessment, I’d say you are both right and wrong. While the Japanese are indeed less forgiving of failure than many other cultures, there are a couple of unique, wonderful qualities they possess that counterbalance this tendency. They are, 1. an unmatched talent in innovating and improving any product or situation they are given and 2. Keeping their chin up despite failure, and keeping it up until it doesn’t want to go down again. My guess is that every single Japanese you saw at Pearl Harbor had nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for America, and were genuinely interested in history, same a you or I would feel upon a tour through one of the Atomic Bomb museums in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. I genuinely believe this.

But here’s where the gears switch. If you ever DO take a tour of one of those museums (located in Hiroshima and Nagasaki), you will be subjected to a what amounts to, at best, a palpably one-sided, hyper-emotive version of the story of what happened there, that seeks desperately to do everything it can to avoid ANY acceptance of responsibility for the role the Japanese military government had in the eventual culmination of those events. They are called the “Peace” museums, and they serve as the model for what is taught to kids in the schools pretty much from the moment they begin elementary school: The dropping of the atomic bombs was the worst thing that has ever occurred in the history of the world, and there can never, ever be anything worse.

All of that would not be so bad but for the complete gutting of all necessary CONTEXT as to HOW all of this came to pass and WHY those decisions were finally made. So a walk through one of the museums will leave the informed student of history with a strange feeling that something important is missing. A we make our way though the museum, we walk through a scale model of pre- and post-bomb Hiroshima that rather obnoxiously indicates the locations of elementary schools while leaving the munitions factories up to the observer’s imagination. And before moving on to the next exhibit, we have to pass the mannequin elementary students with their clothes melting into their skin, here a cute zombie girl stumbles through a hellishly lit wasteland, trailed by her dying mother. And before the next stop, a story, of the little girl who got radiation poisoning, who folded thousands of origami cranes as prayers in the hope she might recover, but she didn’t. And now the thousand million billion trillion I don’t know how many orgami cranes that are folded and strung into massive strings by the elementary students from every school, who are invariably brought to Hiroshima and the museum as one of their mandatory school trips, who are fed all of this stuff without ever a follow-up word as to why, WHY!!! it really happened.

I don’t have the time or space, but maybe this can give you some idea of why you cannot, 99% of the time, even begin to suggest that those bombs finally probably saved the lives of a huge swath of the Japanese poplulace at that time. Don’t you dare. Or why to this day Japan has major diplomatic issues with China and South Korea over its refusal to apologize for wartime atrocities, land disputes and other issues (to be fair, I feel that China and South Korea are probably at least equally guilty in intentionally stoking these fires).

And on the other hand, you have the Japanese far right-wing, who are the other EXTREME extreme of what I have just described, who scare the living shit out of me. I’ll throw a couple of youtube vids of them in the next post and just say that I have been in the middle of a couple of these “rallies” of theirs, and I did NOT feel the typical safe and comfortable feeling I usually have living here. These guys are who Japan was before the bombs, and they want nothing more than for Japan to become “that” Japan again.

Couple of right-wing demonstrations and a related video here:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Okay, as briefly as I can muster:

Regarding Pat’s assessment, I’d say you are both right and wrong. While the Japanese are indeed less forgiving of failure than many other cultures, there are a couple of unique, wonderful qualities they possess that counterbalance this tendency. They are, 1. an unmatched talent in innovating and improving any product or situation they are given and 2. Keeping their chin up despite failure, and keeping it up until it doesn’t want to go down again. My guess is that every single Japanese you saw at Pearl Harbor had nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for America, and were genuinely interested in history, same a you or I would feel upon a tour through one of the Atomic Bomb museums in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. I genuinely believe this.

But here’s where the gears switch. If you ever DO take a tour of one of those museums (located in Hiroshima and Nagasaki), you will be subjected to a what amounts to, at best, a palpably one-sided, hyper-emotive version of the story of what happened there, that seeks desperately to do everything it can to avoid ANY acceptance of responsibility for the role the Japanese military government had in the eventual culmination of those events. They are called the “Peace” museums, and they serve as the model for what is taught to kids in the schools pretty much from the moment they begin elementary school: The dropping of the atomic bombs was the worst thing that has ever occurred in the history of the world, and there can never, ever be anything worse.

All of that would not be so bad but for the complete gutting of all necessary CONTEXT as to HOW all of this came to pass and WHY those decisions were finally made. So a walk through one of the museums will leave the informed student of history with a strange feeling that something important is missing. A we make our way though the museum, we walk through a scale model of pre- and post-bomb Hiroshima that rather obnoxiously indicates the locations of elementary schools while leaving the munitions factories up to the observer’s imagination. And before moving on to the next exhibit, we have to pass the mannequin elementary students with their clothes melting into their skin, here a cute zombie girl stumbles through a hellishly lit wasteland, trailed by her dying mother. And before the next stop, a story, of the little girl who got radiation poisoning, who folded thousands of origami cranes as prayers in the hope she might recover, but she didn’t. And now the thousand million billion trillion I don’t know how many orgami cranes that are folded and strung into massive strings by the elementary students from every school, who are invariably brought to Hiroshima and the museum as one of their mandatory school trips, who are fed all of this stuff without ever a follow-up word as to why, WHY!!! it really happened.

I don’t have the time or space, but maybe this can give you some idea of why you cannot, 99% of the time, even begin to suggest that those bombs finally probably saved the lives of a huge swath of the Japanese poplulace at that time. Don’t you dare. Or why to this day Japan has major diplomatic issues with China and South Korea over its refusal to apologize for wartime atrocities, land disputes and other issues (to be fair, I feel that China and South Korea are probably at least equally guilty in intentionally stoking these fires).

And on the other hand, you have the Japanese far right-wing, who are the other EXTREME extreme of what I have just described, who scare the living shit out of me. I’ll throw a couple of youtube vids of them in the next post and just say that I have been in the middle of a couple of these “rallies” of theirs, and I did NOT feel the typical safe and comfortable feeling I usually have living here. These guys are who Japan was before the bombs, and they want nothing more than for Japan to become “that” Japan again. [/quote]

I’d say that’s a quality assessment. I could see the one sided nature in the education and review of what really happened and why with regards to the bomb. It’s a really easy sell that the intent was just pure evil and the idea behind it was to use our new toy, with no regard to the human life and property. In fact that’s what many American’s believe now too. As with the case in most history, the details of what happened are usually a quite different reality than the summation of the same event.
What I found interesting about the above video, is when he was talking about a full scale invasion of Japan. That most certainly would have been very bloody and far less certain than dropping the bomb. I certainly don’t envy being in Truman’s spot when face with these decisions.

The whole Manhattan Project I find interesting because it’s a very unique event in history. We set out to build a better mouse trap, but overdid it. I don’t think Oppenheimer and company realistically thought they would succeed at least not in any time of reasonable time frame. Never in history was a new weapon made that was so powerful that nobody wanted to use it, even if it would completely defeat the enemy. Certainly, before you make a better bomb, you use it. You make a better gun, you shoot it. Not so with the atomic bomb. All the scientists involved petitioned Truman to not use it, rather to demo it to Japan because they were scared of how powerful it really was. Nobody was ever scared of using a better weapon before.
Indeed American warfare changed since then, people actually care about the enemy. We don’t want to over do it. Carpet bombing cities during WW2 was pretty much status quo, now people would be outraged.
What’s also interesting is just the bomb itself. It’s an extremely intricate ignition system for a bomb. It’s also interesting just how much energy is contained in a single atom…

The A and H bomb in my opinion are the only reasons we haven’t had WW3. At least not yet.

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Couple of right-wing demonstrations and a related video here:

Do you have to work to sound really, really manly in Japanese?

Honest question, I hear most gaijin learn their Japanese from women and then they sound somewhat effeminate.

[quote]orion wrote:

Honest question, I hear most gaijin learn their Japanese from women and then they sound somewhat effeminate. [/quote]

Japanese is just a hard language to learn, period. There are so many different “styles” of speech and words that are appropriate to specific situations that, no exaggeration, even native speakers of Japanese make all sorts of “mistakes.”

There certainly is a feminine and a masculine style of speaking, and I was, indeed, guilty of employing the wrong idioms and words in my first few years here.

Now I just trill all my R’s and grunt and run all my workd together so I sound like, well, like these right wing dudes tend to sound like, hahah.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

No, you don’t want it hijacked you just want to drop a snide remark about the media not being liberal and hope that I (and people like me) will just sit there and not respond.[/quote]

^ such an asshole.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

Do you have to work to sound really, really manly in Japanese?

Honest question, I hear most gaijin learn their Japanese from women and then they sound somewhat effeminate. [/quote]

Not really.

As Cortes says, it can be a challenging language, but if you get good fundamentals from a good text to start with, and then pay attention to how native speakers do it, you can be fairly “manly” fairly easily. And as with most languages (I’d assume) male speech is shorter and more abrupt than female, and so it’s almost just a matter of being (appropriately) lazy.

But yeah, a lot of guys let themselves be influenced by female teachers.

Then again, you’ve expressed doubts in the past about my fluency… Maybe you should check my ability with Cortes? :-p

PS: The word “gaijin” is somewhat prejorative, not liked by longterm expats, and best avoided. The “real” word is “gaikokujin.”

Or, I could just be making that up. :-p[/quote]

Chushin’s proficiency kicks mine all over the floor and makes it clean up the mess afterward. And I can say this based not just upon my own assessment, but with clear, objective standards of evidence.

And I agree that the word gaikokujin is definitely the preferred term. The root morpheme gai means “outside,” koku means “country” and jin means person. So the meaning changes from “foreigner” to “outsider.” I did not used to think so much of the distinction, but living here for over 10 years now and having come to understand that the Japanese do tend to view non-Japanese as an “other,” I have changed my mind about it. There are some people who argue that it is nothing more than a contraction, of which there are a ton in spoken Japanese. My wife was actually arguing this with me, implying that I was making a big deal out of nothing. I helpfully replied that, if gaijin is nothing more than the harmless contraction of the word gaikokujin, then she shouldn’t have any problem with me referring to her and her countrymen as “Japs” from now on.

The argument ended there.

Btw, Chushin, I had been waiting for your post and was hoping to hear your opinion of my thoughts on the Peace Museum and the Japanese way of thinking about the bombs. You are in the belly of the beast, after all. Did you feel what I described was an accurate assessment of the situation?

Might be stating the obvious here, but with the propaganda that they spread there, is there still a lot or any anti-US sentiment because of the bombs?

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Might be stating the obvious here, but with the propaganda that they spread there, is there still a lot or any anti-US sentiment because of the bombs?[/quote]

I wouldn’t call it propaganda so much as I would indoctrination. That’s the reason I’ve used that term throughout this discussion. It’s more of a “leaving-out” than it is proactively promoting a certain set of ideas. The thing is, what is left out is left out in such a way that the clear implication is that there never could have been any justification for using the bomb, ever. And the cult-of-victimization that has grown from this is extremely ingrained into the culture, so much so that it is basically not even possible to have a rational conversation about it when one holds a different opinion than this.

Despite that, no, there is not a lot of anti-US sentiment at all. Quite the opposite, to be honest, and the small amount that does exist is not related to the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (not directly anyway).

Right now most of the ire appears to stem from the US military wanting to use the Osprey over here and a desire for the base at Naha, Okinawa to be shut down (something I think would be a VEEEEERY bad idea, particularly given that Japan is not interested in making nice with China or either of the Koreas, all of whom pretty much despise her).

Cool info, thanks Cortes.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

Regarding Pat’s assessment, I’d say you are both right and wrong. While the Japanese are indeed less forgiving of failure than many other cultures, there are a couple of unique, wonderful qualities they possess that counterbalance this tendency. They are, 1. an unmatched talent in innovating and improving any product or situation they are given and 2. Keeping their chin up despite failure, and keeping it up until it doesn’t want to go down again. My guess is that every single Japanese you saw at Pearl Harbor had nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for America, and were genuinely interested in history, same a you or I would feel upon a tour through one of the Atomic Bomb museums in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. I genuinely believe this.
[/quote]
My only nitpick here, Cortes, is that I think that real ADULTS might fit your description, but there have been reports of young Japanese adults / kids being anything but respectful at the Arizona, etc. As I said, I know: I’m nitpicking. I only mention it because it has apparently caused some bad fellings there in the past. I think some of such behavior is born of not learning about the war in school. Many Japanese have told me that they knew almost nothing about Pearl Harbor until they became adults.

Incidentally, unrelated, but when we were at the Arizona, our tour guide talked about how some Americans resent Japanese people visting – something that both offended and pissed off my wife pretty badly.

[quote]Cortes wrote:
But here’s where the gears switch. If you ever DO take a tour of one of those museums (located in Hiroshima and Nagasaki), you will be subjected to what amounts to, at best, a palpably one-sided, hyper-emotive version of the story of what happened there, that seeks desperately to do everything it can to avoid ANY acceptance of responsibility for the role the Japanese military government had in the eventual culmination of those events.
[/quote]
In my experience, too, this is true, although more recently, SOME effort has been made to change this. It is at least better than it was, say 10 or 15 years ago.

BTW, piece of trivia that some might find interesting: There was poison gas factory in Hiroshima during the war. The gas was mostly directed at the Chinese, though some was also attached to hot-air ballons and put into the jet stream in the hopes of it reaching the US. You can still visit the remains of the factory – and see the display that bemoans the poor innocent JAPANESE victims who suffered from leaks, etc. Nothing about the Chinese, as far as I remember.

[quote]Cortes wrote:
They are called the “Peace” museums, and they serve as the model for what is taught to kids in the schools pretty much from the moment they begin elementary school: The dropping of the atomic bombs was the worst thing that has ever occurred in the history of the world, and there can never, ever be anything worse.
[/quote]
Exactly.

It almost has the flavor of a religion or something…

It is so bad that lifelong residents have almost “delusions of grandeur” when it comes to how the world sees Hiroshima.

[quote]Cortes wrote:
All of that would not be so bad but for the complete gutting of all necessary CONTEXT as to HOW all of this came to pass and WHY those decisions were finally made. So a walk through one of the museums will leave the informed student of history with a strange feeling that something important is missing. A we make our way though the museum, we walk through a scale model of pre- and post-bomb Hiroshima that rather obnoxiously indicates the locations of elementary schools while leaving the munitions factories up to the observer’s imagination. And before moving on to the next exhibit, we have to pass the mannequin elementary students with their clothes melting into their skin, here a cute zombie girl stumbles through a hellishly lit wasteland, trailed by her dying mother. And before the next stop, a story, of the little girl who got radiation poisoning, who folded thousands of origami cranes as prayers in the hope she might recover, but she didn’t. And now the thousand million billion trillion I don’t know how many orgami cranes that are folded and strung into massive strings by the elementary students from every school, who are invariably brought to Hiroshima and the museum as one of their mandatory school trips, who are fed all of this stuff without ever a follow-up word as to why, WHY!!! it really happened.
[/quote]
Ha ha ha!

You’ve described it well, my friend.

[quote]Cortes wrote:
I don’t have the time or space, but maybe this can give you some idea of why you cannot, 99% of the time, even begin to suggest that those bombs finally probably saved the lives of a huge swath of the Japanese poplulace at that time. Don’t you dare.
[/quote]
My experience here is a little different. So long as the person you are talking with is not a member of a hibakusha family, I have found a fair number of people to be fairly open to the discussion. In fact, I have at times even found a bit of resentment on the part of those folks regarding the “sacred” and “special” status of the hibakusha.

[/quote]

Wow guys, this has been enlightening. It’s always interesting to see things from the other side so to speak. So I guess the question is, if not the bomb, then what else would have been required to get the Japanese to surrender? Would a D-Day style attack have worked or would that have fought to the last man, woman and child? As far as I know, ‘Fat Man’ and ‘Little Boy’ was the whole of our nuclear arsenal. So technically the Japanese could have continued to fight on if they knew that, perhaps.

[quote]pat wrote:

Wow guys, this has been enlightening. It’s always interesting to see things from the other side so to speak. So I guess the question is, if not the bomb, then what else would have been required to get the Japanese to surrender? Would a D-Day style attack have worked or would that have fought to the last man, woman and child? As far as I know, ‘Fat Man’ and ‘Little Boy’ was the whole of our nuclear arsenal. So technically the Japanese could have continued to fight on if they knew that, perhaps. [/quote]

I dont know man…

If anyone else said to me “things have changed, and not entirely in our favor” I would think that we have a small problem that, with a little luck and work and whatnot…

Apparently, if a Japanese emperor says it, Gozilla is stomping Tokyo.

At the very least.

We actually had 6 more devices “in the pipeline” at various stages of development.

The 509 Composite was also prepared to drop more bombs. The problem at this point was that we had already Fire Bombed just about every significant city, including almost 99% of Tokyo.

Mufasa