My Thoughts on Dietary Advice for a Newb

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
Join date 2007 trained less than 3 years?[/quote]

Sorry, went by your hub which says 2.5 years training.

Just curious, what specific advice are you objecting to? Also, you state you would have built more muscle if you hadn’t bulked to 230?

Not arguing with you, just trying to clarify.

[quote]ryno76 wrote:

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
Join date 2007 trained less than 3 years?[/quote]

Sorry, went by your hub which says 2.5 years training.

Just curious, what specific advice are you objecting to? Also, you state you would have built more muscle if you hadn’t bulked to 230?

Not arguing with you, just trying to clarify.[/quote]

Excessive quantities of milk, 1g per pound of bodyweight in protein. In particular

Don’t get me wrong, I came off as harsh but that’s my writing style. Milk isn’t absolute shit, but I don’t drink it anymore.

Instead of Drinking a large quantity of milk for calories why would you drink one or two shakes of Milk protein isolate+heavy cream? you can get in a lot more protein in easilly that way and allows you to reach a higher count of grams of protein in a day, and you can avoid the shitty carbs in milk. I got fatter than I would like to admit but I did everything that is often advised here.

If I had gotten 100+ more grams of protein a day than I was from like a year and a half after starting to work out I don’t think I would have had the stagnation period I did, which was long and aggrevating. Why give new weightlifters advice that won’t help them in the long run?

Off to work bbl

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:

Excessive quantities of milk, 1g per pound of bodyweight in protein. In particular

Don’t get me wrong, I came off as harsh but that’s my writing style. Milk isn’t absolute shit, but I don’t drink it anymore.

Instead of Drinking a large quantity of milk for calories why would you drink one or two shakes of Milk protein isolate+heavy cream? you can get in a lot more protein in easilly that way and allows you to reach a higher count of grams of protein in a day, and you can avoid the shitty carbs in milk. I got fatter than I would like to admit but I did everything that is often advised here.

If I had gotten 100+ more grams of protein a day than I was from like a year and a half after starting to work out I don’t think I would have had the stagnation period I did, which was long and aggrevating. Why give new weightlifters advice that won’t help them in the long run?

Off to work bbl[/quote]

Fair enough. The gallon of milk a day idea seems to be geared at skinny kids looking to pack on weight. I’ve seen some people claim great success with it, while others got fat. I, personally, did not criticize any particular advice you gave I just asked a few questions for reasons of clarification.

Keep in mind, though, some skinny individuals with high metabolisms may need all the calories they can get including carbs.

Anyway, again congrats on your weight loss and good luck.

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
You are taking what I said in context for gaining less fat and gaining muscle and applying it to babies? You haven’t explained how drinking milk is better than heavy whipping+ Milk protein isolate+ water for gaining muscle without putting on fat.[/quote]

here are some fun facts about milk:
-in america there are as many as 50 million people that are lactose intolerant, including 90 percent of all Asian-Americans and 75 percent of all African-Americans, Mexican-Americans and Jews.
-in addition to lactose intolerance, thereâ??s a milk allergy â?? the second most common food allergy after peanuts, affecting an estimated 1.3 million children â?? that can be life-threatening.
-Dr. Barnard has stated in a new york times article, â??Itâ??s worth noting that milk and other dairy products are our biggest source of saturated fat, and there are very credible links between dairy consumption and both Type 1 diabetes and the most dangerous form of prostate cancer.â??
-the rate of fractures is highest in milk-drinking countries, and it turns out that the keys to bone strength are lifelong exercise and vitamin D, which you can get from sunshine.
-Most humans never tasted fresh milk from any source other than their mother for almost all of human history, and fresh cowâ??s milk could not be routinely available to urbanites without industrial production.

now if someone asks how to gain mass and they claim they cant eat enough i call them a pussy and tell them to eat more, and drink a gallon of milk a day. i dont tell them that cause i think milk is some super food. i tell them that as i know it will give them the calories they need to gain.

and if massive amounts of protein were required for an increase in muscle mass then how does a carb heavy liquid give us this massive protein? is it maybe that we are getting more calories in general? lets look at 2% cow’s milk. 1 cup has 5gr of fat, 11gr of carbs, and 8gr of protein. looks like more calories from fat and carbs. hhmmmm.

then there is this information:
http://bama.ua.edu/~okendric/nhm463/lectures/LACTAT/sld024.htm
it clearly shows that human milk has even less protein and this is what babies can survive on exclusively. and babies are massively anabolic, as long as they eat enough. notice the trend i am going with here. eat enough and protein becomes a minor concern.

as for more protein, here is more real world results using science:

it states that strength athletes need only a little bit more protein, but do need more calories overall. that goes right along with my earlier statements. i especially like how it shows that the body increases in efficiency in protein usage and therefore requires even less protein.

that link talks how other variables are important for determining protein needs. one in particular is total caloric intake. like what i have stated before.

Zep - I would generally agree with everything in your OP. Other posters are playing semantics with the microwave thing and milk. I’m always skeptical of ones that only quote other authors works or that parrot what they hear someone else say and yet have none of their own personal experiences to offer. The problem with search engines is that anyone can be an internet expert.

The only thing that I will say differed with myself is that I don’t find that everyone needs ginormous amounts of protein. By that, I mean that I am female and think that I do not require as much protein as a man. In the past, I’ve had great results of Atkins type diets with very high fat and moderate amounts of protein. Even still, I experiment with my diet and am trying another approach.

All of the above being said, results will vary for everyone but I think there are some relatively common truths (as you pointed out at the beginning of your thread). You and I both know the only way to find out what works is by actually doing it and experimenting instead of just googling studies that seemingly contradict those who have more experience.

As far as the all carbs being sugar (in an above post)…whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa? Sweet, so I’ll just replace all of my oatmeal with Ben & Jerry’s - thanks!

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
How, in any way is drinking milk better than MPI+heavy cream?[/quote]
Price

[quote]
How, in any way is ground beef+cheese not muscle food?[/quote]
Most with decent accomplishments on here preache the virtue of meat, esp. red meat.

I didn’t read this whole thread because it turned into a milk argument, ad nausea, but who here said anything about not eating meat? I made fun of your lame sloppy-joe recipe as a thing which noobs should know. If someone who is told to eat more protein and meat can’t brown some beef and ad cheese and condiments they need to have adult care services looking after them.

[quote]Chris87 wrote:
People have been drinking cow milk for thousands of years. They have been drinkning milk in general since we came into existance. We are mammals. Mammals drink milk.[/quote]

mammals drink the milk from our own species. we are the only species that drinks milk from other animals. and notice a quote i provided earlier that shows that a large amount of people are lactose intolerant. some races of homo sapiens are as much as 75+% intolerant.

in case you do not know that that means, Lactose intolerance is the inability to digest lactose. Lactose is a type of sugar found in milk and other dairy products.
from this link:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001321/

yes, that means that most homo sapiens cannot even digest the carbs that are in milk. notice how that link also states that babies body’s naturally produce the enzymes needed to metabolisse lactose. as adults we do not produce enough or any at all. that does not sound like something that is meant for us.

[quote]Chris87 wrote:
Milk is not just to get in extra calories. It is a quality protein source like eggs or meat.[/quote]
quality? you may not have seen that link i already provided that showed that human milk has less protein then cows milk. and i would think that human milk is what is meant for us to drink more so then another animals milk.

[quote]Chris87 wrote:
You have no idea how much protein a vegan bodybuilder consumes. They could be consuming 300+ grams a day just like normal bodybuilders. You have no idea.[/quote]
correct. so whats my point? or for that matter, your point?

[quote]Chris87 wrote:
The “key” to building muscle is not just calories. Your assumption is wrong. Muscle is made (mostly) of contractile proteins. If you do not have protein, you cannot build muscle. At all. It’s impossible. Sure, you may not need 300+ grams a day, but you do need a large amount.[/quote]
not just calories? lets look at this a few ways.

say we want to build muscle with protein intake. we can safely say that we can put on 10lbs of muscle in a year. that is 4,546 grams of muscle. which breaks down to 12.5gr/day of protein needed to have the building blocks for that muscle. as i have shown with science from earlier posts that i, at 190lbs, need 150gr a day and i add in 12grams for the building blocks i need 162gr/day. still far less then what bodybuilders say is required and even less then what the OP stated as a minimum to maintain muscle. the math does not add up at all.

and i agree that without enough protein you will not grow muscle. and you say you do not need 300gr/day but a large amount. can you provide evidence of what is needed? i have and it shows less then 1gr/lbs per day. which matches my statements of 150-162gr/day of protein as a good enough source to grow more muscle.

for those that like bodybuilding as a source of knowledge, i offer this link:

it states that nitrogen balance is an accurate way of measuring ones anabolic state. when you have positive nitrogen balance you can grow muscle. an early link i provided showed that a diet of 12-15% of total calories from protein or less then 1gr/day per pound of bodyweight was sufficient to produce a positive nitrogen balance.

it even goes on to state that total caloric intake is important. if you do not have enough total calories and protein is the main source of fuel it will use that and can lower nitrogen balance. this further backs up my statements.

to further talk about nitrogen balance:

that shows that protein is most important for nitrogen balance but a finding of 500 calories with 7-8% from protein is enough to maintain nitrogen balance.

so if 300gr/day of protein is needed to gain muscle that means that over 17,000 calories are needed for optimal muscle growth. you have also made the statement that other do it so it must be correct. lets ask those people if they eat 17k+ calories a day or if they can gain muscle on fewer calories. i am guessing that those people are gaining with 1/3 of that total caloric intake.

Beef, turkey, chicken and fish get discussed a lot.

Other than bacon, I don’t see much about pork… pork chops, ham, tenderloin, etc. Is pork a bad choice?

[quote]asooneyeonig wrote:
so if 300gr/day of protein is needed to gain muscle that means that over 17,000 calories are needed for optimal muscle growth. you have also made the statement that other do it so it must be correct. lets ask those people if they eat 17k+ calories a day or if they can gain muscle on fewer calories. i am guessing that those people are gaining with 1/3 of that total caloric intake. [/quote]

Is it ok to eat bodybuilders? They seem to be very high in protein.

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Is it ok to eat bodybuilders? They seem to be very high in protein.[/quote]

ROFL!!! that could work… things that make you go hmmmmmmmmm.

Well, I agree with Zephead. Milk is especially bad for the more ‘husky’ beginners

[quote]asooneyeonig wrote:

[quote]Chris87 wrote:
People have been drinking cow milk for thousands of years. They have been drinkning milk in general since we came into existance. We are mammals. Mammals drink milk.[/quote]

1-

mammals drink the milk from our own species. we are the only species that drinks milk from other animals. and notice a quote i provided earlier that shows that a large amount of people are lactose intolerant. some races of homo sapiens are as much as 75+% intolerant.

in case you do not know that that means, Lactose intolerance is the inability to digest lactose. Lactose is a type of sugar found in milk and other dairy products.
from this link:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001321/

yes, that means that most homo sapiens cannot even digest the carbs that are in milk. notice how that link also states that babies body’s naturally produce the enzymes needed to metabolisse lactose. as adults we do not produce enough or any at all. that does not sound like something that is meant for us.

[quote]Chris87 wrote:
Milk is not just to get in extra calories. It is a quality protein source like eggs or meat.[/quote]
2-

quality? you may not have seen that link i already provided that showed that human milk has less protein then cows milk. and i would think that human milk is what is meant for us to drink more so then another animals milk.

[quote]Chris87 wrote:
You have no idea how much protein a vegan bodybuilder consumes. They could be consuming 300+ grams a day just like normal bodybuilders. You have no idea.[/quote]
3-

correct. so whats my point? or for that matter, your point?

[quote]Chris87 wrote:
The “key” to building muscle is not just calories. Your assumption is wrong. Muscle is made (mostly) of contractile proteins. If you do not have protein, you cannot build muscle. At all. It’s impossible. Sure, you may not need 300+ grams a day, but you do need a large amount.[/quote]

4-

not just calories? lets look at this a few ways.

say we want to build muscle with protein intake. we can safely say that we can put on 10lbs of muscle in a year. that is 4,546 grams of muscle. which breaks down to 12.5gr/day of protein needed to have the building blocks for that muscle. as i have shown with science from earlier posts that i, at 190lbs, need 150gr a day and i add in 12grams for the building blocks i need 162gr/day. still far less then what bodybuilders say is required and even less then what the OP stated as a minimum to maintain muscle. the math does not add up at all.

and i agree that without enough protein you will not grow muscle. and you say you do not need 300gr/day but a large amount. can you provide evidence of what is needed? i have and it shows less then 1gr/lbs per day. which matches my statements of 150-162gr/day of protein as a good enough source to grow more muscle.

5-

for those that like bodybuilding as a source of knowledge, i offer this link:

it states that nitrogen balance is an accurate way of measuring ones anabolic state. when you have positive nitrogen balance you can grow muscle. an early link i provided showed that a diet of 12-15% of total calories from protein or less then 1gr/day per pound of bodyweight was sufficient to produce a positive nitrogen balance.

it even goes on to state that total caloric intake is important. if you do not have enough total calories and protein is the main source of fuel it will use that and can lower nitrogen balance. this further backs up my statements.

6-

to further talk about nitrogen balance:
http://www.ajcn.org/content/2/6/405.short
that shows that protein is most important for nitrogen balance but a finding of 500 calories with 7-8% from protein is enough to maintain nitrogen balance.

so if 300gr/day of protein is needed to gain muscle that means that over 17,000 calories are needed for optimal muscle growth. you have also made the statement that other do it so it must be correct. lets ask those people if they eat 17k+ calories a day or if they can gain muscle on fewer calories. i am guessing that those people are gaining with 1/3 of that total caloric intake.

[/quote]
1-

Certain ethnicities have a higher incidence of lactose intolerance because they did not traditionally have cows in that part of the world. So these people had no more use for the lactase enzyme, so it evolved its way out.

I know what lactose is. I described it in the post you are replying to.

No, that means for some ethnicities that did not traditionally have cows, the majority can not digest lactose.

Babies bodies naturally produce lactase (the enzyme) because we are mammals. If they never drink consume dairy after infancy, there is no need for the enzyme, and the body will stop producing it.

2-

Yes, I know that human milk has a lower protein content than cow milk. Cow milk is still a quality protein source. The vast majority of people tout whey protein as being a quality protein source, and it is derived from cow milk.

3-

Your point was that you don’t need very much protein to build muscle. You used vegan bodybuilders as an example because “they are probably bigger than me and you, and they eat much less protein” or something to that effect. When in fact, you have no idea how much protein they consume. So this example is useless.

4-

I’m not sure if you know this, but the body uses protein for a lot of other things than building muscle.

I did not say you don’t need 300 grams a day. I said you may not need that amount. Nobody can tell you how much protein you need per day to gain or maintain muscle.

I also don’t care what the studies you posted say, because as the OP pointed out, they are shitty studies. There is not much scientific research in building muscle, as it is a VERY low priority in the scientific community. Most of the small amount of studies that have been done are of poor quality.

5-

A positive nitrogen balance does indeed mean that your body is an anabolic state, like you said. When your body is in positive nitrogen balance, you CAN build muscle. This in no way means that you ARE building muscle. If I drink a soda on an empty stomach, my body will be in anabolic state in a few minutes, because insulin will be released, causing glucose to be absorbed into the cells as well as being stored as glucagon. This is an anabolic process. Anabolic means that larger molecules are being synthesized from smaller ones. No muscle is being built in this soda example.

A positive nitrogen balance simply means that as a whole, the body is in an anabolic state. It does NOT mean that the body is currently increasing muscle mass. Thus, the amount of protein required to put the body into a positive nitrogen balance means nothing. The goal is not simply a positive nitrogen balance, but building muscle.

Again, most of the scientific studies on this subject are shitty.

6-

I never said 300 grams a day was neccessary. To insuate that 17,000 calories a day is neccessary is asinine.

I never made the statement “that other do it so it must be correct”

Ask them, I’m not the one who said 17,000 calories a day was neccessary.

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:

[quote]asooneyeonig wrote:

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:

  1. Milk sucks the amount of sugar in it is rediculous
  • instead try using heavy whipping cream protein powder and water
    Why would you add sugar to your regular diet outside of pre/peri/post workout? Heavy cream provides calories from nearly entirely fat turning that protein shake into a real meal. It also tastes delicious and because it doesnt contain the sugar in milk it is a hell of a lot better for building muscle while not gaining uneeded fat.[/quote]

there is some good and bad here. milk has been shown for longer then most of us have been alive that it can help pack on size. chocolate milk has even been shown to be a superior post workout recovery drink. the simple point it is trying to make is to up ones calories. some people just cant eat enough so drinking it can help.

now does that mean it sucks, nope. it works for adding extra calories. its that simple. if you are disciplined enough to eat enough then you dont even need that gallon of milk a day.

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
3. bodyweight in grams of protein is bullshit: I’m shooting for 350+ grams of protein at 187.5 pounds right now. I recover faster and can train 6 times a week while dieting. I’ve added at least a quarter inch to my arms since I started my diet as well.
-I honestly think bodyweight in grams of protein is the absolute bare minimum to not regress.[/quote]

read that link. it is an interview with a NSCA coach of the year. someone far more knowledgable and experienced then both of us combined. in there he talks about how even poor nutrition people can get big if their workouts are good. this man is even a vegetarian.

it is my opinion that this entire believe that massive protein is needed to even maintain muscle is just ridiculous. just look at any vegan bodybuilder. they are probably much larger then you and even me. and they do it with far less protein intake.

the key IMO is even calories. if massive protein is what you need to get the calories you need then of course its going to make you think it is protein that is helping. but if you get enough calories from say, milk, then you will still recover and grow and it wasnt from massive protein. getting enough calories is what did it. it is my strong opinion that even if 50+% of your diet is fat intake and you get enough total calories you will recover well and grow/adapt.

http://jap.physiology.org/content/73/2/767.short
that research article from the journal of applied physiology shows us that far less then what you state as a minimal to maintain is enough to grow muscle as a beginner. i weigh 190lbs and at the upper end of what it shows would put me as a need of 150grams a day. your statement claims i need 190+ per day and using your example i would need nearly 400grams a day. so you may want to rethink that one.

i am sure this is going to spark quite the debate like it always has when this topic comes up. that is why i specifically stated thats its the calories that are more important as long as a minimal amount of protein is taken in. i propose the minimal amount as what was recommended in that last link i provided.

i also provide this research article:
http://jap.physiology.org/content/64/1/187.short
it shows that bodybuilders need just above what a sedentary person needs and that endurance athletes need much more then bodybuilders and even then not near to the amount you claim is needed.

just remember, circumstantial evidence is not proof it works. repeatable consistent results are.
[/quote]

You can drink milk and put on size obviously but why not consume a higher protein beverage full of slow digesting fats that doesn’t have the sugar content milk has? Outside of being near a workout there isn’t any benefit to eating sugar unless you like putting on fat.

[/quote]

Just so it’s out there, all carbohydrates are sugar. The words are synonymous.

Of course, when people think of “sugar” or see sugar on a nutrition label, they assume monosaccharides. Well, lactose is a disaccharide, so it will not digest as quickly as a monosaccharide, which is generally the complaint with “sugar”.

Also, because of the fat, protein, and complex carbohydrate content of milk, the lactose will digest even slower. For all intensive purposes, in milk lactose acts like a complex carbohydrate, not a “sugar”.

2 examples,

1- You never see anyone drinking milk before a workout, or kids getting hyper after drinking a bunch of milk. It doesn’t give an energy boost, it slows you down. If you drank a half gallon of milk right now, you wouldn’t want to do a damn think for several hours.

2- Babies drink milk all day, every day, for years. In fact, for a significant period, that is all they drink. If the lactose in milk acted like a tradiditonal “sugar” then you would expect to see a bunch of pre-diabetic and diabetic babies and toddlers. You don’t.[/quote]

You are taking what I said in context for gaining less fat and gaining muscle and applying it to babies? You haven’t explained how drinking milk is better than heavy whipping+ Milk protein isolate+ water for gaining muscle without putting on fat.[/quote]

I was posting that in response to “milk sucks the amount of sugar in it is rediculous”

If that wasn’t your main point, and your point is that a protein shake would be better, then yes I agree.

[quote]JLone wrote:

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
How, in any way is drinking milk better than MPI+heavy cream?[/quote]
Price

[quote]
How, in any way is ground beef+cheese not muscle food?[/quote]
Most with decent accomplishments on here preache the virtue of meat, esp. red meat.

I didn’t read this whole thread because it turned into a milk argument, ad nausea, but who here said anything about not eating meat? I made fun of your lame sloppy-joe recipe as a thing which noobs should know. If someone who is told to eat more protein and meat can’t brown some beef and ad cheese and condiments they need to have adult care services looking after them. [/quote]

I wasn’t trying to be ground breaking with that comment, but why wouldn’t you eat that shitty ass sloppy joe recipe over just about anything else when looking for bulk calories?

I agree with the price thing but this is NOT a poor man’s game. I spend more on food than I do on my half of the rent right now, and I live in a good appartment, in a decent location.

Heavy cream isn’t expencive, protein powder in bulk is not expensive.

I appreciate you taking your time in this thread though I’m not looking for everyone to agree with me but you are also offering a valid viewpoint that other people can learn from, keep posting.

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:

[quote]asooneyeonig wrote:

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:

  1. Milk sucks the amount of sugar in it is rediculous
  • instead try using heavy whipping cream protein powder and water
    Why would you add sugar to your regular diet outside of pre/peri/post workout? Heavy cream provides calories from nearly entirely fat turning that protein shake into a real meal. It also tastes delicious and because it doesnt contain the sugar in milk it is a hell of a lot better for building muscle while not gaining uneeded fat.[/quote]

there is some good and bad here. milk has been shown for longer then most of us have been alive that it can help pack on size. chocolate milk has even been shown to be a superior post workout recovery drink. the simple point it is trying to make is to up ones calories. some people just cant eat enough so drinking it can help.

now does that mean it sucks, nope. it works for adding extra calories. its that simple. if you are disciplined enough to eat enough then you dont even need that gallon of milk a day.

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
3. bodyweight in grams of protein is bullshit: I’m shooting for 350+ grams of protein at 187.5 pounds right now. I recover faster and can train 6 times a week while dieting. I’ve added at least a quarter inch to my arms since I started my diet as well.
-I honestly think bodyweight in grams of protein is the absolute bare minimum to not regress.[/quote]

read that link. it is an interview with a NSCA coach of the year. someone far more knowledgable and experienced then both of us combined. in there he talks about how even poor nutrition people can get big if their workouts are good. this man is even a vegetarian.

it is my opinion that this entire believe that massive protein is needed to even maintain muscle is just ridiculous. just look at any vegan bodybuilder. they are probably much larger then you and even me. and they do it with far less protein intake.

the key IMO is even calories. if massive protein is what you need to get the calories you need then of course its going to make you think it is protein that is helping. but if you get enough calories from say, milk, then you will still recover and grow and it wasnt from massive protein. getting enough calories is what did it. it is my strong opinion that even if 50+% of your diet is fat intake and you get enough total calories you will recover well and grow/adapt.

http://jap.physiology.org/content/73/2/767.short
that research article from the journal of applied physiology shows us that far less then what you state as a minimal to maintain is enough to grow muscle as a beginner. i weigh 190lbs and at the upper end of what it shows would put me as a need of 150grams a day. your statement claims i need 190+ per day and using your example i would need nearly 400grams a day. so you may want to rethink that one.

i am sure this is going to spark quite the debate like it always has when this topic comes up. that is why i specifically stated thats its the calories that are more important as long as a minimal amount of protein is taken in. i propose the minimal amount as what was recommended in that last link i provided.

i also provide this research article:
http://jap.physiology.org/content/64/1/187.short
it shows that bodybuilders need just above what a sedentary person needs and that endurance athletes need much more then bodybuilders and even then not near to the amount you claim is needed.

just remember, circumstantial evidence is not proof it works. repeatable consistent results are.
[/quote]

You can drink milk and put on size obviously but why not consume a higher protein beverage full of slow digesting fats that doesn’t have the sugar content milk has? Outside of being near a workout there isn’t any benefit to eating sugar unless you like putting on fat.

[/quote]

Just so it’s out there, all carbohydrates are sugar. The words are synonymous.

Of course, when people think of “sugar” or see sugar on a nutrition label, they assume monosaccharides. Well, lactose is a disaccharide, so it will not digest as quickly as a monosaccharide, which is generally the complaint with “sugar”.

Also, because of the fat, protein, and complex carbohydrate content of milk, the lactose will digest even slower. For all intensive purposes, in milk lactose acts like a complex carbohydrate, not a “sugar”.

2 examples,

1- You never see anyone drinking milk before a workout, or kids getting hyper after drinking a bunch of milk. It doesn’t give an energy boost, it slows you down. If you drank a half gallon of milk right now, you wouldn’t want to do a damn think for several hours.

2- Babies drink milk all day, every day, for years. In fact, for a significant period, that is all they drink. If the lactose in milk acted like a tradiditonal “sugar” then you would expect to see a bunch of pre-diabetic and diabetic babies and toddlers. You don’t.[/quote]

You are taking what I said in context for gaining less fat and gaining muscle and applying it to babies? You haven’t explained how drinking milk is better than heavy whipping+ Milk protein isolate+ water for gaining muscle without putting on fat.[/quote]

I was posting that in response to “milk sucks the amount of sugar in it is rediculous”

If that wasn’t your main point, and your point is that a protein shake would be better, then yes I agree. [/quote]

The way I look at things is that if there is a better option you should take it. If one of my friends asked how to gain weight I would tell them 3 scoops of pro+heavy cream twice a day on top of what they are eating right now. I wouldn’t tell them to drink a shit load of milk.

That said, why would I tell someone on the forums to drink a shit load of milk? a glass of milk with your meals isn’t going to make you fat, but using it as a replacement for a weightgainer seems to me like a bad idea.

p.s. Trying to write in a little less aggressive tone so that there are no misunderstandings.

I would just like to say that I think this has been a really good thread so far and I encourage everyone to continue discussing.

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
Zep - I would generally agree with everything in your OP. Other posters are playing semantics with the microwave thing and milk. I’m always skeptical of ones that only quote other authors works or that parrot what they hear someone else say and yet have none of their own personal experiences to offer. The problem with search engines is that anyone can be an internet expert.

The only thing that I will say differed with myself is that I don’t find that everyone needs ginormous amounts of protein. By that, I mean that I am female and think that I do not require as much protein as a man. In the past, I’ve had great results of Atkins type diets with very high fat and moderate amounts of protein. Even still, I experiment with my diet and am trying another approach.

All of the above being said, results will vary for everyone but I think there are some relatively common truths (as you pointed out at the beginning of your thread). You and I both know the only way to find out what works is by actually doing it and experimenting instead of just googling studies that seemingly contradict those who have more experience.

As far as the all carbs being sugar (in an above post)…whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa? Sweet, so I’ll just replace all of my oatmeal with Ben & Jerry’s - thanks![/quote]

The whole microwave thing, and the ground beef+cheese thing I posted because I know that a large amount of the people who need to gain weight are my age or younger with limited cooking ability. Not everyone owns a real steamer and not everyone under the age of 20 (and many after) have any ambition with cooking. These younger guys are the ones I’m targeting. This shit is NOT hard. But like I said before this is not a poor man’s game either.

For the record I cook a lot and love to do new things in the kitchen. My girlfriend and I live in an off campus appartment year round where we go to school. So I have access to many things I did not before.

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:

[quote]asooneyeonig wrote:

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:

  1. Milk sucks the amount of sugar in it is rediculous
  • instead try using heavy whipping cream protein powder and water
    Why would you add sugar to your regular diet outside of pre/peri/post workout? Heavy cream provides calories from nearly entirely fat turning that protein shake into a real meal. It also tastes delicious and because it doesnt contain the sugar in milk it is a hell of a lot better for building muscle while not gaining uneeded fat.[/quote]

there is some good and bad here. milk has been shown for longer then most of us have been alive that it can help pack on size. chocolate milk has even been shown to be a superior post workout recovery drink. the simple point it is trying to make is to up ones calories. some people just cant eat enough so drinking it can help.

now does that mean it sucks, nope. it works for adding extra calories. its that simple. if you are disciplined enough to eat enough then you dont even need that gallon of milk a day.

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
3. bodyweight in grams of protein is bullshit: I’m shooting for 350+ grams of protein at 187.5 pounds right now. I recover faster and can train 6 times a week while dieting. I’ve added at least a quarter inch to my arms since I started my diet as well.
-I honestly think bodyweight in grams of protein is the absolute bare minimum to not regress.[/quote]

read that link. it is an interview with a NSCA coach of the year. someone far more knowledgable and experienced then both of us combined. in there he talks about how even poor nutrition people can get big if their workouts are good. this man is even a vegetarian.

it is my opinion that this entire believe that massive protein is needed to even maintain muscle is just ridiculous. just look at any vegan bodybuilder. they are probably much larger then you and even me. and they do it with far less protein intake.

the key IMO is even calories. if massive protein is what you need to get the calories you need then of course its going to make you think it is protein that is helping. but if you get enough calories from say, milk, then you will still recover and grow and it wasnt from massive protein. getting enough calories is what did it. it is my strong opinion that even if 50+% of your diet is fat intake and you get enough total calories you will recover well and grow/adapt.

http://jap.physiology.org/content/73/2/767.short
that research article from the journal of applied physiology shows us that far less then what you state as a minimal to maintain is enough to grow muscle as a beginner. i weigh 190lbs and at the upper end of what it shows would put me as a need of 150grams a day. your statement claims i need 190+ per day and using your example i would need nearly 400grams a day. so you may want to rethink that one.

i am sure this is going to spark quite the debate like it always has when this topic comes up. that is why i specifically stated thats its the calories that are more important as long as a minimal amount of protein is taken in. i propose the minimal amount as what was recommended in that last link i provided.

i also provide this research article:
http://jap.physiology.org/content/64/1/187.short
it shows that bodybuilders need just above what a sedentary person needs and that endurance athletes need much more then bodybuilders and even then not near to the amount you claim is needed.

just remember, circumstantial evidence is not proof it works. repeatable consistent results are.
[/quote]

You can drink milk and put on size obviously but why not consume a higher protein beverage full of slow digesting fats that doesn’t have the sugar content milk has? Outside of being near a workout there isn’t any benefit to eating sugar unless you like putting on fat.

[/quote]

Just so it’s out there, all carbohydrates are sugar. The words are synonymous.

Of course, when people think of “sugar” or see sugar on a nutrition label, they assume monosaccharides. Well, lactose is a disaccharide, so it will not digest as quickly as a monosaccharide, which is generally the complaint with “sugar”.

Also, because of the fat, protein, and complex carbohydrate content of milk, the lactose will digest even slower. For all intensive purposes, in milk lactose acts like a complex carbohydrate, not a “sugar”.

2 examples,

1- You never see anyone drinking milk before a workout, or kids getting hyper after drinking a bunch of milk. It doesn’t give an energy boost, it slows you down. If you drank a half gallon of milk right now, you wouldn’t want to do a damn think for several hours.

2- Babies drink milk all day, every day, for years. In fact, for a significant period, that is all they drink. If the lactose in milk acted like a tradiditonal “sugar” then you would expect to see a bunch of pre-diabetic and diabetic babies and toddlers. You don’t.[/quote]

You are taking what I said in context for gaining less fat and gaining muscle and applying it to babies? You haven’t explained how drinking milk is better than heavy whipping+ Milk protein isolate+ water for gaining muscle without putting on fat.[/quote]

I was posting that in response to “milk sucks the amount of sugar in it is rediculous”

If that wasn’t your main point, and your point is that a protein shake would be better, then yes I agree. [/quote]

The way I look at things is that if there is a better option you should take it. If one of my friends asked how to gain weight I would tell them 3 scoops of pro+heavy cream twice a day on top of what they are eating right now. I wouldn’t tell them to drink a shit load of milk.

That said, why would I tell someone on the forums to drink a shit load of milk? a glass of milk with your meals isn’t going to make you fat, but using it as a replacement for a weightgainer seems to me like a bad idea.

p.s. Trying to write in a little less aggressive tone so that there are no misunderstandings.[/quote]

I agree. Milk is a cheaper option for many however.

I think the problem with new guys drinking shit tons of milk everyday isn’t the fact that it’s milk. I think they forget that just because they eat a shit ton of calories, that doesn’t mean they are going to build a shit ton of muscle.

If you give a construction crew an unlimited number of bricks, they can still only build a house so fast. A lot of times I think beginners try to gain way too much too soon.

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

The only thing that I will say differed with myself is that I don’t find that everyone needs ginormous amounts of protein.

You and I both know the only way to find out what works is by actually doing it and experimenting instead of just googling studies that seemingly contradict those who have more experience.

As far as the all carbs being sugar (in an above post)…whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa? Sweet, so I’ll just replace all of my oatmeal with Ben & Jerry’s - thanks![/quote]

Agree.

Agree even more.

I don’t know if that was sarcastic, but yes. All carbohydrates are sugar, in the same way that all sugars are carbohydrates. The words mean the same thing.

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

The only thing that I will say differed with myself is that I don’t find that everyone needs ginormous amounts of protein.

You and I both know the only way to find out what works is by actually doing it and experimenting instead of just googling studies that seemingly contradict those who have more experience.

As far as the all carbs being sugar (in an above post)…whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa? Sweet, so I’ll just replace all of my oatmeal with Ben & Jerry’s - thanks![/quote]

Agree.

Agree even more.

I don’t know if that was sarcastic, but yes. All carbohydrates are sugar, in the same way that all sugars are carbohydrates. The words mean the same thing.[/quote]

I find it very amusing how easily you are able to pick out the certain parts of dialogue that you wish to see and change it’s context. Please read as: you chopped half of my post to promote your own POV.

If you think that all carbs are sugar and all sugar are carbs, I don’t know what else to say to you but I don’t think you’d listen anyhow.