My Post-Fight Reflections

Training
1

I’m writing this to help myself get down everything I need to learn from my fight. As usual. comments are welcome, comments I don’t like will be ignored as though they don’t exist.

First, it was a win. TKO by 3 standing 8 count rule at 1:18 in the 3rd. Winning is good.

Second, I was waaaaaay behind on points. Behind on points is bad.

The guy I was fighting is an acquaintance. Our coaches thought we’d be a good matchup for each other and set up the fight to push us a little outside our comfort zone, without going so far outside of it that we’d be easy prey to the other guy. I’d say they have a good eye, and I wouldn’t be suprised if we ended up as training partners in the future.

This was a fight under modified IKF San Shou rules. To save everyone the wikipedia search, we allowed all throws, knees to the body, and leg kicks. Headgear and 10 oz gloves, we went without shin pads. No elbows. 205 lbs, which is a catch weight under these rules. Scoring was incremental, much like point-fighting karate.

I’m not fighting under these rules, or any other incremental scoring rules, again. Scoring out of 10, boxing and UFC style, is the way to go. I was tripped, a lot, to no effect but a lot of points. Now I know this means I need to work on my trip defense, but this guy’s background was Judo. I was much more aggressive, and did a lot more damage (as evidenced by the TKO on standing 8’s) but I couldn’t have made up the point deficit against a speedbag. While it’s a sport, and those are the rules of the sport, I don’t have to enjoy it. I’ll stick to the sports that reward something closer to real fighting.

My knee strikes were completely ineffective. After about the third try, I stopped using them. If I landed at all, I wasn’t able to hurt him much, and he was able to throw me much more easily. Need to work on balance after a knee.

Hooks. It’s been said here before, and I’m going to reiterate. Hooks. He obviously hadn’t been training at guarding effective punching, at least not for very long. I don’t think I threw a single hook in combination that didn’t get through. Learn to throw a hook and a few good combinations under pressure, and the number of people who can stand up to you goes way down.

Uppercuts. Harder to connect with than a hook, but devastating. Twice I got through clean, twice I put him on the mat. A rude surprise when he tried to clinch up with me. I trained clinch breaks to punch combos extensively when preparing for this fight, and the training paid off. His hands were out wide enough that I split him right down the middle and nearly picked him up out of his shoes.

Trips and throws. I’m not good enough at achieving position yet to do MMA in competition. Every time we went to the ground, he managed to end up on top or at least neutral. I didn’t score a single point off a throw. I had an OK sprawl against his double-leg, but I couldn’t do anything in return. If he wanted to stay on his feet, he stayed on his feet. Had this been an MMA fight, I’d have been in for about 2 minutes of Jiu Jitsu, followed by a submission loss. Looks like I need to start going to a no-BS BJJ school if I ever want to fight MMA.

His corner had the video, I’ll put it up when i get it from him.

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i’m eager to see this, You seem to know your stuff, post it man, so we can help you out.

3

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
I’m writing this to help myself get down everything I need to learn from my fight. As usual. comments are welcome, comments I don’t like will be ignored as though they don’t exist.

First, it was a win. TKO by 3 standing 8 count rule at 1:18 in the 3rd. Winning is good.

Second, I was waaaaaay behind on points. Behind on points is bad.

The guy I was fighting is an acquaintance. Our coaches thought we’d be a good matchup for each other and set up the fight to push us a little outside our comfort zone, without going so far outside of it that we’d be easy prey to the other guy. I’d say they have a good eye, and I wouldn’t be suprised if we ended up as training partners in the future.

This was a fight under modified IKF San Shou rules. To save everyone the wikipedia search, we allowed all throws, knees to the body, and leg kicks. Headgear and 10 oz gloves, we went without shin pads. No elbows. 205 lbs, which is a catch weight under these rules. Scoring was incremental, much like point-fighting karate.

I’m not fighting under these rules, or any other incremental scoring rules, again. Scoring out of 10, boxing and UFC style, is the way to go. I was tripped, a lot, to no effect but a lot of points. Now I know this means I need to work on my trip defense, but this guy’s background was Judo. I was much more aggressive, and did a lot more damage (as evidenced by the TKO on standing 8’s) but I couldn’t have made up the point deficit against a speedbag. While it’s a sport, and those are the rules of the sport, I don’t have to enjoy it. I’ll stick to the sports that reward something closer to real fighting.

My knee strikes were completely ineffective. After about the third try, I stopped using them. If I landed at all, I wasn’t able to hurt him much, and he was able to throw me much more easily. Need to work on balance after a knee.

Hooks. It’s been said here before, and I’m going to reiterate. Hooks. He obviously hadn’t been training at guarding effective punching, at least not for very long. I don’t think I threw a single hook in combination that didn’t get through. Learn to throw a hook and a few good combinations under pressure, and the number of people who can stand up to you goes way down.

Uppercuts. Harder to connect with than a hook, but devastating. Twice I got through clean, twice I put him on the mat. A rude surprise when he tried to clinch up with me. I trained clinch breaks to punch combos extensively when preparing for this fight, and the training paid off. His hands were out wide enough that I split him right down the middle and nearly picked him up out of his shoes.

Trips and throws. I’m not good enough at achieving position yet to do MMA in competition. Every time we went to the ground, he managed to end up on top or at least neutral. I didn’t score a single point off a throw. I had an OK sprawl against his double-leg, but I couldn’t do anything in return. If he wanted to stay on his feet, he stayed on his feet. Had this been an MMA fight, I’d have been in for about 2 minutes of Jiu Jitsu, followed by a submission loss. Looks like I need to start going to a no-BS BJJ school if I ever want to fight MMA.

His corner had the video, I’ll put it up when i get it from him.[/quote]

first off, congrats on the “W”

secondly, good to see you’re looking at improvements…

while i’ve never fought San shou, i do recall watching quite a bit, and the throws used in that seemed a lot like sacriface throws, which would be pretty ineffective in a normal MMA fight…so don’t be too hard on yourself there.

i persoanlly find uppercuts great for countering a clinch (the first silva-Franklin fight i was screaming at the TV), so good call there. i suspect your clinch game might need work, though, since you said your knees didn’t work from there…

anyway, good to hear you won and have some ideas for progress!

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Good post, thanks. Interesting stuff

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[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
first off, congrats on the “W”

secondly, good to see you’re looking at improvements…

while i’ve never fought San shou, i do recall watching quite a bit, and the throws used in that seemed a lot like sacriface throws, which would be pretty ineffective in a normal MMA fight…so don’t be too hard on yourself there.

i persoanlly find uppercuts great for countering a clinch (the first silva-Franklin fight i was screaming at the TV), so good call there. i suspect your clinch game might need work, though, since you said your knees didn’t work from there…

anyway, good to hear you won and have some ideas for progress![/quote]

On the trips/throws: His were actually trips and throws for position. Sacrifice yes, but sacrifice for superior position on the ground where I’m not so great right now. I’m not too worried about the throw itself, but being in the mount of a superior jiu jitsu fighter or wrestler. Short of a sudden revelation, once it becomes a jiu jitsu fight I’m dead against anyone with a gracie purple or above, and I don’t even think it’s an even fight against a blue belt either. However, I knew this, and it’s why we did San Shou rules instead of full MMA.

As for the clinch game, only the knees weren’t effective. My hands were (as usual) my most effective weapon, in or outside the clinch. I would like to work my knees more, but as I’ve noted in the past I’m a bit heavy on my feet, and I think working on that will improve everything.

Likewise, I think working on my lightness will help my kicking game. I got a couple of leg kicks in, but nothing notable enough that i remembered to comment on it initially. I think if my recovery after kicks was better I’d use them more often, from more varied positions. I already throw with plenty of power with good targeting, now all I have to do is bring it back faster.

I think cutting down to an eventual fighting weight of 195 for IKF cruiser weight will help, as I intend to cut most of it in bodyfat. I’m plenty strong enough to fight at 195 right now, and by cutting fat I don’t have to do much of a water cut before the fight and risk coming in dehydrated. Once I’ve done that, I’d eventually like to go to 185 for MMA, but like my jiu jitsu game that’s a way off.

To everyone who is considering fighting in competition: do it. Just prepping for a (relatively) friendly fight made me step up my game and work on some move I wasn’t very strong with before. Now that I’ve seen what works and what doesn’t, I’ve got a whole new fire under my ass in the gym. I had sparred before, and even fought practice matches that were supposed to be just like the real thing, but just calling it a real fight made everything seem a little more urgent. Good stuff, and I’ll be working towards eventual MMA competition.

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[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
first off, congrats on the “W”

secondly, good to see you’re looking at improvements…

while i’ve never fought San shou, i do recall watching quite a bit, and the throws used in that seemed a lot like sacriface throws, which would be pretty ineffective in a normal MMA fight…so don’t be too hard on yourself there.

i persoanlly find uppercuts great for countering a clinch (the first silva-Franklin fight i was screaming at the TV), so good call there. i suspect your clinch game might need work, though, since you said your knees didn’t work from there…

anyway, good to hear you won and have some ideas for progress![/quote]

On the trips/throws: His were actually trips and throws for position. Sacrifice yes, but sacrifice for superior position on the ground where I’m not so great right now. I’m not too worried about the throw itself, but being in the mount of a superior jiu jitsu fighter or wrestler. Short of a sudden revelation, once it becomes a jiu jitsu fight I’m dead against anyone with a gracie purple or above, and I don’t even think it’s an even fight against a blue belt either. However, I knew this, and it’s why we did San Shou rules instead of full MMA.

As for the clinch game, only the knees weren’t effective. My hands were (as usual) my most effective weapon, in or outside the clinch. I would like to work my knees more, but as I’ve noted in the past I’m a bit heavy on my feet, and I think working on that will improve everything.

Likewise, I think working on my lightness will help my kicking game. I got a couple of leg kicks in, but nothing notable enough that i remembered to comment on it initially. I think if my recovery after kicks was better I’d use them more often, from more varied positions. I already throw with plenty of power with good targeting, now all I have to do is bring it back faster.

I think cutting down to an eventual fighting weight of 195 for IKF cruiser weight will help, as I intend to cut most of it in bodyfat. I’m plenty strong enough to fight at 195 right now, and by cutting fat I don’t have to do much of a water cut before the fight and risk coming in dehydrated. Once I’ve done that, I’d eventually like to go to 185 for MMA, but like my jiu jitsu game that’s a way off.

To everyone who is considering fighting in competition: do it. Just prepping for a (relatively) friendly fight made me step up my game and work on some move I wasn’t very strong with before. Now that I’ve seen what works and what doesn’t, I’ve got a whole new fire under my ass in the gym. I had sparred before, and even fought practice matches that were supposed to be just like the real thing, but just calling it a real fight made everything seem a little more urgent. Good stuff, and I’ll be working towards eventual MMA competition.[/quote]

ah, thanks for explaining the throws better…it loo slike you’ve identified that well, so i think just a little more drill will help ya out.

thanks for mentioning your fight, and how much prepping for a fight helped ya out…i agree 100% with this, and thnk pretty much anyone who trains should compete, if for no other reason than to track progress…

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[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
To everyone who is considering fighting in competition: do it. Just prepping for a (relatively) friendly fight made me step up my game and work on some move I wasn’t very strong with before. Now that I’ve seen what works and what doesn’t, I’ve got a whole new fire under my ass in the gym. I had sparred before, and even fought practice matches that were supposed to be just like the real thing, but just calling it a real fight made everything seem a little more urgent. Good stuff, and I’ll be working towards eventual MMA competition.[/quote]

I second that. If you want to fight, do it. No if’s, but’s or anything. You learn so much more in the few minutes you’re in a real ring, than in weeks or possibly months of training. I’ve learned that all the technique in the world is no good if you throw it out the window as soon as the bell rings for instance.

That said, I wish I had your smarts when it comes to who to fight and under what rules. My first friendly fight ended in a humiliating defeat. I was too eager to fight, so I said yes to the first guy who asked, and let him set the terms. He was at least 10 kg heavier than me (with muscle, not fat) and he picked UFC rules.

My leg kicks were pathetic as I didn’t commit to them, didn’t want to go to the ground as I knew I’d be like a fish out of water as soon as he got me down. I was proven right in my assessment just seconds into the fight. I’d never done any submission training, so he got me twice. One guillotine and one rear-naked choke. He also tagged me with some hard punches, but I’m blessed with a pretty good chin.

The fight is on youtube, but it’s too embarrassing to post here, and the point of this post wasn’t to hijack your thread anyway, just chime in an say I agree; If you want to fight, just do it. Win or lose you learn and grow from the experience.

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Reviving Old Thread.

How did the 10oz gloves feel compared to 12/14/16s?

I’ve never been hit REALLY HARD with 10s like I have with 16s (been opened up with headgear with 16s by a pro…).

I have this fight coming up (see my weight post) and it will be my first time going hard with 10s and without shin pads, so I’m curious about how that was.

I could imagine it either not really making a difference because you’re so in the moment… or I could imagine it feeling like a total game changer.

Did you get kicks checked?

Also (again, I know it’s an old thread) did you ever get that video?

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[quote]Spartiates wrote:
How did the 10oz gloves feel compared to 12/14/16s? [/quote]

Compare to 16’s? You’re going to feel like you got hit with a brick. Compared to 12’s? Not too big a step, definitely not as bad as 4 oz.

I’d be going 70% with 10’s, headgear, and no shin pads as buildup if you have the time. You’re going to get pain shocked into submission if you’ve never glanced your shin off someone’s knee or hip before. You’d also be amazed how much more effective body shots are with 10’s than with 16’s. Just like with the kicks, one good solid hook to the liver (Bas: leeeever punch!) is going to send you to the mat, ne’er to return.

I would want as few surprises as possible on fight day. Don’t count on adrenalin to carry you through, if you dump and gas in the first 2 minutes you’re just going to be worn down and feeling everything more starting in the 3rd minute. Your guard is going to be weaker, you’ll be more likely to let body shots through, and when they do connect you’re less likely to have much left in your core to brace against the hit. I’ve been training to take serious body shots for about 6 years now, and I still wouldn’t count on not feeling them. Damage is damage, and if you’re cutting water for the fight and haven’t re-hydrated you’re even more likely to take organ damage you can’t train against.

No, but he was focusing on taking me down, he wasn’t much of a kickboxer. I’d expect anyone with a halfway competent muay thai background to check at least a few of your kicks.

The neanderthal taped it on 8mm, so I have to find a way to digitize it. I don’t even have an 8mm player.

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[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:
How did the 10oz gloves feel compared to 12/14/16s? [/quote]

Compare to 16’s? You’re going to feel like you got hit with a brick. Compared to 12’s? Not too big a step, definitely not as bad as 4 oz.

I’d be going 70% with 10’s, headgear, and no shin pads as buildup if you have the time. You’re going to get pain shocked into submission if you’ve never glanced your shin off someone’s knee or hip before. You’d also be amazed how much more effective body shots are with 10’s than with 16’s. Just like with the kicks, one good solid hook to the liver (Bas: leeeever punch!) is going to send you to the mat, ne’er to return.

I would want as few surprises as possible on fight day. Don’t count on adrenalin to carry you through, if you dump and gas in the first 2 minutes you’re just going to be worn down and feeling everything more starting in the 3rd minute. Your guard is going to be weaker, you’ll be more likely to let body shots through, and when they do connect you’re less likely to have much left in your core to brace against the hit. I’ve been training to take serious body shots for about 6 years now, and I still wouldn’t count on not feeling them. Damage is damage, and if you’re cutting water for the fight and haven’t re-hydrated you’re even more likely to take organ damage you can’t train against.

No, but he was focusing on taking me down, he wasn’t much of a kickboxer. I’d expect anyone with a halfway competent muay thai background to check at least a few of your kicks.

The neanderthal taped it on 8mm, so I have to find a way to digitize it. I don’t even have an 8mm player.[/quote]

Thanks. I have about a month and a half. We go no shinguards pretty regular, but not hard. My training partner is smaller than me, but fighting at the same event: I’m sure he’d be down for a little no shin-guard and 10oz sparring.

My kicks are probably the strongest part of my stand up game, especially my round kick, so I really don’t want to go in gun shy worrying about shins. My conditioning is also really good right now. My hands are by far the weakest part of my game.

Your feedback makes me glad that I’m cutting to 170 and not trying to stand with someone who might be walking around at 215.

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Your profile says you’re 5’11" and 195 (I understand this may not be current), I’d say fighting at 215 would be suicide. It sounds like you have plenty of time to work up, and you’ve gone no shinguards in practice so bone on bone shouldn’t be entirely foreign to you.

Spend some time sparring with the 10oz, or even let the other guy wear 10’s while you wear 16’s if he doesn’t share your enthusiasm for pain, so that you’re used to what a body blow feels like when it’s not as padded.

I’m assuming you have a coach, and that he’s working with you on getting ready, so I don’t want to offer too much advice on prep. I’d just add that if your hands are weak you’re going to at least want to work on keeping your guard up and your chin tucked, or someone with better hands is going to be in your grill all day trying to get inside those kicks.