So do you switch back and forth now, and why not?
I stick with wide stance powerlifting style squatting probably 75% of the time. I still do some assistance stuff close stance and ATG though, but not in the same way as an oly lifter would. I do things like close stance ATG safety squat bar squats for assistance work, close stance box squats to a really low box, etc.
When I cared less about numbers and was just lifting for athletic performance (submission wrestling and muay thai), I kept the squat oly style but now I want to get my numbers as high as possible and eventually compete. Even now, my “wide stance powerlifting style squat” probably isn’t nearly as extreme as what you’re thinking of, but I plan on continuing to move it out wider and cutting the depth a bit more gradually until my stance is as wide as it comfortably can be and I’m only going as low as I need to.
I don’t see the point in adjusting your stance and making every little modification possible to squat the most weight under the rules until you’re an elite level powerlifter or you’re not far away from becoming one. I think squatting like that from the beginning (and even if you’re just far out from a meet) would hinder your long term gains and be a mistake in general. I could be wrong though, I’m not saying I’m definetely right. I’m just giving my opinion based on personal experience and what I’ve observed, read and heard about from other lifters. When people reach elite level, they’re going to be utilizing every change and modification they can make to their technique/stance/depth in an effort to squat the most weight. I just think that if you start that process too early, it’ll be harder to make gains on your squat later on when you’re stronger, gains are much harder to come by and you could benefit more from those changes. It makes sense to me anyway.
this is why i do not like the term ATG. because i believe the lift technically never reached parallel even though it’s not the best view to judge from. instead of pivoting at the hip the pivot point is more at the knee. even when you watch the chinese lifter you can see that difference. congrats on your pr, but also try not to spend so much time with the weight on your back, try to go faster to conserve energy.
No offense dude but if you don’t know the difference between powerlifting and olympic weightlifting, maybe do a bit of research before posting in the powerlifting forum?
Powerlifting: competitive sport based around the bench press, deadlift, and squat (usually low-bar, wide-stance, to parallel)
Olympic Weightlifting: competitive sport based around the snatch and the clean and jerk (high-bar squats are an assistance lift)
Olympic weightlifters go deeper in the squat (ATG) because it matches the catch position of their lifts.
Now, based on your video, it looks like your doing a hybrid type squat, high bar position, but you’re not keeping an upright torso and you’re not going ATG. It’s still 315 though, which is great, congratulations, but consider either switching to a traditional low-bar squat, and go to parallel or a bit lower, or do a high-bar squat, maintain an upright posture, and go ATG.
[quote]moshcamp wrote:
No offense dude but if you don’t know the difference between powerlifting and olympic weightlifting, maybe do a bit of research before posting in the powerlifting forum?
Powerlifting: competitive sport based around the bench press, deadlift, and squat (usually low-bar, wide-stance, to parallel)
Olympic Weightlifting: competitive sport based around the snatch and the clean and jerk (high-bar squats are an assistance lift)
Olympic weightlifters go deeper in the squat (ATG) because it matches the catch position of their lifts.
Now, based on your video, it looks like your doing a hybrid type squat, high bar position, but you’re not keeping an upright torso and you’re not going ATG. It’s still 315 though, which is great, congratulations, but consider either switching to a traditional low-bar squat, and go to parallel or a bit lower, or do a high-bar squat, maintain an upright posture, and go ATG.[/quote]
I hear ya.
I’m actually trying to upload another video of me squatting that day from 2 different angles.
I went to squat today and I tried 2 different things.
-
I tried to squat with a lower bar squat and that straight up failed. I didn’t even unrack the barbell because it just felt too awkward and I felt like I wouldn’t be able to hold it for the whole duration.
-
The next thing I tried was to to go way wider than I usually do. I went slightly wider than shoulder width and I failed there as well, I couldn’t even get out of the hole.
I blame these 2 fails on the fact that I raised the weights by an additional 5 as the program wants me to do which isn’t very wise.
Either way, I am going to follow you advice and keep my high bar squat while trying to keep my torso more upright. I don’t know if it has any impact, however, I feel that this form will be healthier for my knees considering they will barely move.
Here it is:
The video is overly long, Skip at 37s to see the first lift and 1:49 to see the second.
I was somewhat trying to match this dude’s form:
however I guess I’m not quite there yet.
Oh and today I performed a set of 5 rep with 325 at a much quicker pace than my 315 video. I took around 5 to 7 seconds max in between the reps instead of taking around 15, felt much better on the other sets. I though I needed that much but I guess I can just push through it.
[quote]JizzNibblets wrote:
I went to squat today and I tried 2 different things.
-
I tried to squat with a lower bar squat and that straight up failed. I didn’t even unrack the barbell because it just felt too awkward and I felt like I wouldn’t be able to hold it for the whole duration.
-
The next thing I tried was to to go way wider than I usually do. I went slightly wider than shoulder width and I failed there as well, I couldn’t even get out of the hole.
I blame these 2 fails on the fact that I raised the weights by an additional 5 as the program wants me to do which isn’t very wise.
Either way, I am going to follow you advice and keep my high bar squat while trying to keep my torso more upright. I don’t know if it has any impact, however, I feel that this form will be healthier for my knees considering they will barely move.
[/quote]
Come on man, you can’t be serious with this post. You tried a low bar squat and couldn’t unrack it? Uhh…what? You didn’t start working your technique low bar first with just the bar? You’re supposed to warm up that way and then do your working sets with it, not just warm up the way you always have and then on your heaviest set just randomly try a new completely different technique than what you’re used to and expect it to work out. That’s just common sense.
You say you went wider and couldn’t get out of the hole? Again, you should have worked up to a wider stance gradually while you were warming up, and you shouldn’t be lifting maximal weights the first time you try a new style anyway. It’s bad enough you made the mistake to try the style this way, but now you’re going to write the style off because you failed on your heaviest weights with it the first time you tried it? Get real.
I guarantee that your hamstrings and entire posterior chain is just weak in general (especially in comparison to your quads) from squatting oly style for so long. You need to build them up over time to make the wide stance powerlifting style squat work. Do reverse hypers, RDL’s, good mornings, box squats, glute ham raises, pull throughs, dimel deadlifts, etc. and do some work with the safety squat bar and cambered bar. Your posterior chain has much more potential to become strong than your quads do, and oly style does not full utilize the PC the way powerlifting style does. I worked up to the stance I’m using now over a period of about 6 months while incorporating a ton of assistance work for my posterior chain. You really should just go to www.elitefts.com and read some old Dave Tate articles about Westside Barbell training and learn some things.
And is there a reason you’re still holding the bar on your back for 15 seconds before you squat? I’m guessing that if you’re still doing that, you’re still waiting that long inbetween reps, which doesn’t make any sense.
Also, your heels came off of the ground at the bottom of your squat which means you were leaning forward and your knees were way over your ankles, that’s bad form. The guy you said you’re trying to imitate has bad form as well, his squats just looked like some kind of bodybuilding squat.
Were you squatting in running or basketball shoes? If so, get some converse, wrestling shoes or oly lifting shoes to squat in. Squatting in running shoes is compounding your problems because of the amount of compression the shoes allow when you have a heavy weight on your back. This throws your form off severely, it’s going to be hard to have decent technique when you’re squatting in those shoes.
No I warmed up with the low bar without any weight on the bar for 2 sets of 5 reps. I then tried with 135lb and it went O.K. Next I tried it with 225 on and it just felt wrong, Maybe I just got it too low. It felt like the bar was just going to slip off my back. I did unrack it, what I meant is that I got it off the rack but I didn’t actually take my steps back to try to perform the squat, I just felt like it was bad news so I went back to my high bar. Same deal with the stance.
I’m not saying I went and tried the changes with 315 on. Just saying that I didn’t make 5lb jumps either.
I’m currently doing this program from Rippetoe’s book:
Week A
Day 1
Squat 3x5
Bench press 3x5
Chin-ups: 3 sets, weight added so failure occurs at 5 to 7 reps
Day 2
Front squats 3x3
Press 3x5
Deadlift 1x5
Day 3
Squat 3x5
Bench press 3x5
Pull-ups: 3 sets to failure, unweighted
Week B
Day 1
Squat 3x5
Press 3x5
Chin-ups: 3 sets to failure, unweighted
Day 2
Front squats 3x3
Bench press 3x5
Power clean 5x3
Day 3
Squat 3x5
Press 3x5
Pull-ups: 3 sets, weight added so failure occurs at 5 to 7 reps
with some weighted dips added, I don’t really know about the accessory work you suggested, I wanted to stay as strict as possible with the program. Do you suggest I try a new program? I’ve been on this one for a year anyway, I still make progress but I guess I change wouldn’t hurt.
This clip was shot at the same time as my first one. I don’t really know why I wait that long in between the reps and all. It’s kinda like the weight scares me a little. Before I unrack the barbell I start getting butterflies and I get shaky, I really want to pull the 5 reps and not one less and it’s getting heavy. With the bar on my back, I just never feel ready enough to dip and get back up so I take 2 hour pauses at the top but like I said I just performed more squats today and I did a 5rm with 10pounds more than on this video within 30-45 seconds which is huge improvement. I just don’t feel confident you know? I want my form to be perfect and all, I think too much. My knee started being sore a while back and it doesn’t seem to get back to normal. It doesn’t hurt or anything, squatting actually makes the ‘‘sore’’ go away. When I’m at home though that’s a different story. I feel it more when I’m seated too, when I’m standing I don’t feel it at all, think that’s why I’m going paranoid.
I tend to fall forward a lot when I try to get my stance wider, I don’t know why.
I don’t know the model of the shoes I use but they’re addidas shoes. I use them because they’re the pair with the flattest sole that I own. I’ll try to get a hold of some converses tommorow.
Oh, alright then. I was just saying that it would take some time to work into that stance and if you wanted to, you’d have to do the assistance work for it and ease into it. It’s not an overnight change. If what you’re doing is working for you then don’t change it until you plateau or want to to try a new program. Unless oly lifting is your goal, I was just saying that you’ve probably reached a level where you’re strong enough to start working a more powerlifting style squat. I guarantee that once you got comfortable squatting with that style, you’d be squatting significantly more than you are now because it’s more efficient and uses your naturally stronger muscles.
Also, if you’re falling forward then you might want to work some good mornings into your program for assistance work. They’ll build your posterior chain up and prevent leaning forward coming out of the hole while squatting. For me, once I switched to powerlifting style squatting, falling forward out of the hole was never a problem again. The increased PC work definetely played a role, but the stance helped as well.
There are certain mental cues you can tell yourself to prevent this as well. A few things I think about are making the first movement of the descent a backward movement with your hips, not a downward movement with your legs. Push your hips back and then squat down keeping a good arch the whole time. When coming out of the hole don’t just squat up with your legs first, that’s how you end up falling forward. The first movement you should make when coming out of the hole is pushing your traps into the bar and your head back, at the same time you want to push your chest up, tuck your elbows as far forward as you comfortably can and fire with your glutes. Then, you squat with your legs.
When you make pushing your trap into the bar/pushing your chest up the first movement out of the hole, falling forward honestly shouldn’t be much of a problem anymore. Just make sure you squat back with your hips instead of squatting down between your legs. These mental cues should take care of most of the problem, try to do some good mornings once a week or so though too, and glute ham raises if you can. You could do them in place of one of your squats, or work them in instead of front squatting. I think your quads are probably strong enough at this point. It’s your call though, just giving some advice.
[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:
Oh, alright then. I was just saying that it would take some time to work into that stance and if you wanted to, you’d have to do the assistance work for it and ease into it. It’s not an overnight change. If what you’re doing is working for you then don’t change it until you plateau or want to to try a new program. Unless oly lifting is your goal, I was just saying that you’ve probably reached a level where you’re strong enough to start working a more powerlifting style squat. I guarantee that once you got comfortable squatting with that style, you’d be squatting significantly more than you are now because it’s more efficient and uses your naturally stronger muscles.
Also, if you’re falling forward then you might want to work some good mornings into your program for assistance work. They’ll build your posterior chain up and prevent leaning forward coming out of the hole while squatting. For me, once I switched to powerlifting style squatting, falling forward out of the hole was never a problem again. The increased PC work definetely played a role, but the stance helped as well.
There are certain mental cues you can tell yourself to prevent this as well. A few things I think about are making the first movement of the descent a backward movement with your hips, not a downward movement with your legs. Push your hips back and then squat down keeping a good arch the whole time. When coming out of the hole don’t just squat up with your legs first, that’s how you end up falling forward. The first movement you should make when coming out of the hole is pushing your traps into the bar and your head back, at the same time you want to push your chest up, tuck your elbows as far forward as you comfortably can and fire with your glutes. Then, you squat with your legs.
When you make pushing your trap into the bar/pushing your chest up the first movement out of the hole, falling forward honestly shouldn’t be much of a problem anymore. Just make sure you squat back with your hips instead of squatting down between your legs. These mental cues should take care of most of the problem, try to do some good mornings once a week or so though too, and glute ham raises if you can. You could do them in place of one of your squats, or work them in instead of front squatting. I think your quads are probably strong enough at this point. It’s your call though, just giving some advice. [/quote]
I appreciate all the help man.
As for the mental cues, I think I’m just gonna have to try and squat the other way around/having the mirror in my back because I developed the bad habit of looking at my knees while going up, making sure my knees don’t wobble/cave in.
I was thinking about changing my front squat for back squats and squatting 3 times a week anyway, figure I can just sub in GM’s instead.
Here’s an article I found linked on Rippetoe’s site. He talks about the superiority of the low bar powerlifting style squat and how you can use much more weight than with the high bar oly style squat. Reading this should change your mind and convince you to switch to the powerlifting squat or at the very least, give it another chance and work at it a bit more.
[quote]moshcamp wrote:
No offense dude but if you don’t know the difference between powerlifting and olympic weightlifting, maybe do a bit of research before posting in the powerlifting forum?
No offense, but it’s not “Olympic Weightlifting” it’s Weightlifting, but since you have done soooo much research you probably already new that.
[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:
Here’s an article I found linked on Rippetoe’s site. He talks about the superiority of the low bar powerlifting style squat and how you can use much more weight than with the high bar oly style squat. Reading this should change your mind and convince you to switch to the powerlifting squat or at the very least, give it another chance and work at it a bit more.[/quote]
Good report - transferring to low bar squats !
-Steve
[quote]Malaka79 wrote:
No offense, but it’s not “Olympic Weightlifting” it’s Weightlifting, but since you have done soooo much research you probably already new that.
[/quote]
“I am very excited that God is giving me an opportunity to continue competing especially Olympic Weightlifting.”
There’s a post on WBB where Travis Mash calls it olympic weightlifting, would you give him shit for calling it that?
[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:
[quote]Malaka79 wrote:
No offense, but it’s not “Olympic Weightlifting” it’s Weightlifting, but since you have done soooo much research you probably already new that.
[/quote]
“I am very excited that God is giving me an opportunity to continue competing especially Olympic Weightlifting.”
There’s a post on WBB where Travis Mash calls it olympic weightlifting, would you give him shit for calling it that? [/quote]
If he was being a dick to someone TRYING to learn then yea, only in the states is it referred to as “Olympic” it’s just like “soccer”. I was only trying to make a point, these boards are where people can learn the difference. But you can’t jump down someones throat for not knowing the specifics, or else this turns into the bodybuilding forums.
[quote]JizzNibblets wrote:
I hear ya.
I’m actually trying to upload another video of me squatting that day from 2 different angles.
I went to squat today and I tried 2 different things.
-
I tried to squat with a lower bar squat and that straight up failed. I didn’t even unrack the barbell because it just felt too awkward and I felt like I wouldn’t be able to hold it for the whole duration.
-
The next thing I tried was to to go way wider than I usually do. I went slightly wider than shoulder width and I failed there as well, I couldn’t even get out of the hole.
I blame these 2 fails on the fact that I raised the weights by an additional 5 as the program wants me to do which isn’t very wise.
Either way, I am going to follow you advice and keep my high bar squat while trying to keep my torso more upright. I don’t know if it has any impact, however, I feel that this form will be healthier for my knees considering they will barely move.
Oh and today I performed a set of 5 rep with 325 at a much quicker pace than my 315 video. I took around 5 to 7 seconds max in between the reps instead of taking around 15, felt much better on the other sets. I though I needed that much but I guess I can just push through it.
[/quote]
The dude in the video you posted is a bodybuilder, and he’s doing a bodybuilder squat… which is similar to high-bar, but you have a very narrow stance and only go to slightly above parallel to target the quads. It’s more for hypertrophy/aesthetics than strength.
Either way, regardless of the specific technique, you’re doing squats, which is a lot better than what most people at the gym are doing, and you’re putting up decent weight.
It literally took me years to learn how to squat properly, so just keep researching, asking questions, and squatting, and you’ll find out what works best for you.
[quote]Malaka79 wrote:
No offense, but it’s not “Olympic Weightlifting” it’s Weightlifting, but since you have done soooo much research you probably already new that.
[/quote]
Eh, it’s referred to as both. Now if you’ll excuse me, I must get back to my laboratory…
[quote]Malaka79 wrote:
[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:
[quote]Malaka79 wrote:
No offense, but it’s not “Olympic Weightlifting” it’s Weightlifting, but since you have done soooo much research you probably already new that.
[/quote]
“I am very excited that God is giving me an opportunity to continue competing especially Olympic Weightlifting.”
There’s a post on WBB where Travis Mash calls it olympic weightlifting, would you give him shit for calling it that? [/quote]
If he was being a dick to someone TRYING to learn then yea, only in the states is it referred to as “Olympic” it’s just like “soccer”. I was only trying to make a point, these boards are where people can learn the difference. But you can’t jump down someones throat for not knowing the specifics, or else this turns into the bodybuilding forums. [/quote]
I wasn’t being a dick, I was offering constructive criticism. Jesus, how sensitive are we becoming in this society? This is a powerlifting forum, not a casserole recipe exchange. Good lord.
Also, OP, is that Suicide Silence shirt? Good band.