I’m finally ready to start my first cycle next Monday. I thought I would post it to see what you guys think.
It’s a little short, I know - But it is a first cycle. So with that said - here it is:
Week 1-10 75mg test prop ed
Week 1-8 50mg tren ace(fina) ed
Week 1-10 10-20mg Nolvedex ed
Week 1-10 .5 mg Arimidex eod
PCT: Starting 3 days after last prop injection.
Day 1-30
.25mg L-dex ed
100mg Clomid ed
20mg Nolva ed
Let me know what you think.
I will also be taking B6 400mg ed throughout and have dostinex on hand in case tren gyno shows up.
Good luck. BTW you would be a good example of someone who did their homework. I’m sure it’ll go well. What’s your diet going to look like?
I’m going to try and stick with the Berardi principles wrt nutrient timing. But as for KCal intake - I will increase it slowly over the next few weeks. I don’t know what would happen if I go from 3500 calories to 5000 overnight. So I will be making steady increases to my energy intake over the first 3 or 4 weeks.
what’re the stats now?
Good luck with it.
Why so heavy on the anti-e’s? Is there a reason you are using both adex and nolva during your cycle?
The adex should be enough during and the nolva could slow/lower your gains. Using only the adex while on will increase your gains and save you some cash.
One more…L-dex? I’m not quite sure what this is and I love learning, could you please fill me in.
DA
[quote]Darkangel wrote:
Why so heavy on the anti-e’s? Is there a reason you are using both adex and nolva during your cycle?
The adex should be enough during and the nolva could slow/lower your gains. Using only the adex while on will increase your gains and save you some cash.
One more…L-dex? I’m not quite sure what this is and I love learning, could you please fill me in.
DA[/quote]
L-dex is the same as arimidex. It’s short for liquidex. I copied and pasted my PCT from my notes.
I’m going heavy on the anti-e’s mainly because this is converted synovex-h. I know I will probably be sacrificing some gain - but better safe than sorry. My wife isn’t a big fan of girl tits - I wished she was, but that’s a whole different thread.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Darkangel wrote:
Why so heavy on the anti-e’s? Is there a reason you are using both adex and nolva during your cycle?
The adex should be enough during and the nolva could slow/lower your gains. Using only the adex while on will increase your gains and save you some cash.
One more…L-dex? I’m not quite sure what this is and I love learning, could you please fill me in.
DA
L-dex is the same as arimidex. It’s short for liquidex. I copied and pasted my PCT from my notes.
I’m going heavy on the anti-e’s mainly because this is converted synovex-h. I know I will probably be sacrificing some gain - but better safe than sorry. My wife isn’t a big fan of girl tits - I wished she was, but that’s a whole different thread.[/quote]
I second the opinion about not using Arimidex and Nolvadex concurrently. NOT because you will “lose some gains”. Only because I’ve seen studies that show that Arimidex lowers the efficacy of Nolvadex, so it’s kinda pointless using the two together, especially at such a low nolva dosage as this (this has also been my personal experience). If I were you I would just bump my Arimidex up to 1mg/day. I think that will be safer wrt preventing side effects than the combination as proposed (again, my personal experience, not theory).
As a side note, please do not ever listen to anyone that tells you that you will be sacrificing gains by running anti-e’s “heavy”. You won’t. The only effect will be drier, more solid gains. And please NEVER, EVER fall into the trap of waiting until you “feel something in your nips, then add anti-e’s as needed”. By the time you feel something, you can have permanent gyno. Trust me, this is not theory, this is experience talking.
I got the PCT/anti-e protocol from a highly respected message board, as well as from an experienced bro.
As for the tren gyno - B6 should work to lower the risk, and dost is way too harsh to take for the whole cycle.
woa there fella…Morty I did not say don’t use anti-e’s I was simply saying he should pick one or the other.
Nolva might actually be the better choice in this cycle since tren dose not aromitize yet it can still cause gyno. Since aromatization is not the concern and stoping gyno before it starts is. Nolva would be more effective if the tren is the worry.
Secondly…too much nolva can lesson your gains. Simply because it takes up residence in the same receptor sites as the other drugs you are putting into your body are trying to fill. If your receptors are receiving nolva and not test,eq,deca,tren,ect…then you are waisting expensive drug and potential gains. This is why I usually say letro or arimidex over nolva for use during a cycle.
My theories/opinions.
DA
Huh… I was under the assumption that “tren gyno” was a result of Progesterone related sides… not Estrogen… So in that fact, Nolva would be pretty much superfluous for that purpose… Rainjack is correct for using B-6 and possibly even dostinex for tren related gyno… B-6 lowers prolactin… so does Vitex Agnus Castus. At least this is what I’ve come to believe from research and some experienced friends.
Good luck Rainjack, keep us posted.
Here is the information I used to set my PCT. It makes sense to me, but if there is something I am missing, please - let me know.
If you want the link to where I found this, please PM me.
[quote]My post cycle therapy is a three compound administration which is designed so that there is a primary and secondary LH stimulator which both are maximizing potential early in the duration; with the primary being phased out in extended protocol. With the addition of an AI, which makes the above possible, the individual will also endure less of an increase in SHBG, which allows free testosterone levels to reach base line
at a much quicker pace. The individual will also see less of a problem in most cases with sexual libido as the bounding SHBG is controlled(to an extent). Below you will find my suggested bare minimum, as well as a sample of an extended protocol. Extended PCT protcol is cycle length dependant so the below is not the standard for all cycles
PCT for cycles 8-16wks:
Day 1-30- .25mg L-dex + 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva
Extended protocol sample for a 12+ month cycle:
Day 1-15_ .25mg L-dex + 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva
Day 16-45_.25mg L-dex + 75mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva
Day 46-65_.25mg L-dex + 20mg Nolva
Day 66-80_.25mg L-dex
Now, IMO clomid is selective to the suprapituitary, while Nolva is selective to breast, bone, and liver ERs. I’ve come to this conclusion based on the comparison of studies on both SERMs. In every study showing benefit to HPTA from tamoxifin, the duration of the administration is 3-12months(This includes studies cited by William Llewellyn in his Nolva vs Clomid article). In studies showing levels of LH, FSH, and Testosterone checked after short durations of tamox, they were either insignificant, or their was an actual drop. I believe this is because tamox selectively works at the mammery(as well as bone and liver), thus taking longer for LH stimulation to occur.
With clomid, benefit to gonadotphin concentrations, LH, FSH, and serum testosterone can be seen in short periods of 2-6wks. Because of the apparent selective nature of the two, and given our usual PCT duration, clomid is by far superior at LH stimulation than Nolva. Now both is the wise choice for a couple of reasons:
Arimidex(or L-dex)
Estrogen is the main inhibitence of restoring HPTA, and AI administration has been shown to increase gonadotrophin concentrations and serum Testosterone by up to 50%. In addition, by adding L-dex, the inhibitence of excess estrogen allows Tamox to work greater at LH stimulation in the begining stages of PCT, since the need to prevent binding in the mammery is lessened by the reduction in estrogen biosynthesis[/quote]
To DarkAngel:
I agree with you on almost all points; my note about not using anti-e’s was not directed at you, sorry about how I worded that.
To RJ:
I agree with the multi drug protocol post cycle, it looks very similar to a protocol I have had experience with. I am simply letting you know that because of the effect L-dex has on the efficacy of nolvadex:
Taking them both together DURING the cycle is not necessary, and doubling the L-dex dosage proved to be more effective than combining the two drugs at the kind of low dosages you are talking about. This is what DarkAngel is getting at as well.
You may require a higher dosage of nolvadex post cycle with L-dex than you might normally use without L-dex.
hey rain hows the cycle going ive added around 17-18 pounds in 4 weeks with a significant bf drop and i have 3 weeks left keep me posted on how it goes i hope you are ready for the sensitivity to heat when on tren cause that shit sucks when you finally fall asleep at like 2 then wake up at 3 because you are soaked and dude i cant stress enough water water water this weekend i mised beer with tren and when i had to piss it was brown not cool ive been scarfing down at least 2 gallons a day and my piss is still yellow so watch out fot that
After some lashes with a wet noodle, I have been persuaded to change my ancillary/PCT protocol.
It is now changed to:
Week 1-11 2.5mg letrozole eod
Week 1-10 480mg B6 ed
3D after last prop injection -
nolva ed @ 20/20/40/40
clomid 100mg ed for 30d.
Hope that makes sense - I won’t start this until my letro arrives. Hopefully that will be NLT Monday.
AI’s do a number on lipid levels so Nolvadex is usually added so that lipid levels don’t bottom out.
And it’s not Arimadex that lowers the efficacy of Nolva, it’s Letro that does it.
Here is the study:
Clin Cancer Res. 1999 Sep;5(9):2338-43. Related Articles, Links
Impact of tamoxifen on the pharmacokinetics and endocrine effects of the aromatase inhibitor letrozole in postmenopausal women with breast cancer.
Dowsett M, Pfister C, Johnston SR, Miles DW, Houston SJ, Verbeek JA, Gundacker H, Sioufi A, Smith IE.
Department of Biochemistry, Royal Marsden Hospital, London, United Kingdom.
This study examined whether the addition of tamoxifen to the treatment regimen of patients with advanced breast cancer being treated with the aromatase inhibitor letrozole led to any pharmacokinetic or pharmacodynamic interaction. Twelve of 17 patients completed the core period of the trial in which 2.5 mg/day letrozole was administered alone for 6 weeks and in combination with 20 mg/day tamoxifen for the subsequent 6 weeks. Patients responding to treatment continued on the combination until progression of disease or any other reason for discontinuation. Plasma levels of letrozole were measured at the end of the 6-week periods of treatment with letrozole alone and the combination and once more between 4 and 8 months on combination therapy. No further measurements were done thereafter. Hormone levels were measured at 2-week intervals throughout the core period. Marked suppression of estradiol, estrone, and estrone sulfate occurred with letrozole treatment, and this was not significantly affected by the addition of tamoxifen. However, plasma levels of letrozole were reduced by a mean 37.6% during combination therapy (P<0.0001), and this reduction persisted after 4-8 months of combination therapy. Letrozole is the first drug to be described in which this pharmacokinetic interaction occurs with tamoxifen. The mechanism is likely to be a consequence of an induction of letrozole-metabolizing enzymes by tamoxifen but was not further addressed in this study. It is possible that the antitumor efficacy of letrozole may be affected. Thus, sequential therapy may be preferable with these two drugs. It is not known whether tamoxifen interacts with other members of this class of drugs or with other drugs in combination.
Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Multicenter Study
PMID: 10499602 [PubMed - indexed for