[quote]bricked. wrote:
How do you guys deal with the water retention after your carbups. I always feel down cuz I freak that I gained a ton of fat :([/quote]
I just deal with it by not worrying about it. It’s usually gone by the end of my workout on Monday anyway. Actually, lately I’ve been playing two hours of basketball Sunday night, and a lot of the water retention is gone after that.
Maybe I am gaining fat then…
BTW: What are you eating on your low carb days, and what are you eating on your carbups? Calories/Macros?
Thanks, brother.
Edit: What’s your stats too? 
[quote]bricked. wrote:
How do you guys deal with the water retention after your carbups. I always feel down cuz I freak that I gained a ton of fat :([/quote]
This is becoming a private joke for me.
Mon-Thursday:
Fat as Fuck.
Friday,Saturday:
Animal!
Noticed I get less bloated and gain less water/fat if I stick with clean starches for the carbup and a minimum of fruit.
[quote]bricked. wrote:
BTW: What are you eating on your low carb days, and what are you eating on your carbups? Calories/Macros?
Thanks, brother.
Edit: What’s your stats too? :P[/quote]
Bricked,
I’, 6’2", about 255, which is down from 280 when I started back in July. I don’t count calories so much, but this is what I eat generally:
Meal 1: four pieces of thick cut bacon, 1 omelete with four eggs, 1 cup brocolli, 1/2 cups mushrooms, and 1/4 cup shredded cheddar cheese.
Meal 2: Protein shake with heavy cream, olive oil and six fish oil caps.
Meal 3: Steak with spinach, mushrooms, cheese, olive oil, and sometimes I throw in some shrimp.
Meal 4: Same as Meal 2
Meal 5: Usually some cheese and salami or summer sausage or somthing similar. This is my smallest meal of the day.
The only time I vary from this is on training days (three days per week, I have an extra protein shake thrown in post training. And sometimes I have chicken instead of steak. Pretty simple and easy, really.
My carb-ups have mostly been a free-for-all, though I make sure to eat oatmeal, pasta, veggies and other good carbs.
What is the best thing to do during a carb up weekend on say a fri. and or sat. night? I am in college and these nights typically involve going to parties or bars. I know that some drink during the carb ups and as I recall, on some web sites describing the diet “pizza and beer on the weekend” is even one of the selling points. During these hours when I will not have food readily available is it best to a)avoid alcohol as much as possible b)moderately drink a beer rich in carbs, (also usually means a higher alcohol content, or c)opt for a mixed drink with a type of juice. I know the option exists of drinking virgin drinks, with the mixer providing the carbs. However, I’ve tried cutting alcohol out completely, and I’ve actually found that being extremely stringent in this area leads me to a bit of obsessive/compuslive deal which in the end is actually detrimental to things in general. Also is there any reason why alcohol is licensed as “kinda ok” on the weeknend? Is it any less detrimental during a carb up than it would be on a standeard diet of protein,fats, and carbs. I think I posted something concerning this issue earlier in the thread, and apologize if this mirrors the earlier post. Thanks for any insight.
Should protein from nuts be kept in check to avoid glucogenesis?
[quote]Wolverin wrote:
Should protein from nuts be kept in check to avoid glucogenesis?
[/quote]
Well, you should treat protein form nuts tyhe same as any other protein source. I don’t quite know what you’re getting at. If you eat 3000 kcals a day and you weigh 200 pounds and get 300 grams of protein a day, you’re still getting almost 1700 calories from fat, or roughly 185 grams of fat. That much energy from fat would be pretty protein sparing, I would think.
However, I think Dr. D reccomends 60% from fat, so at 3000 kcals that would mean about 200 grams of fat and the remainder from protein and 30g of carbs. So, I think if you’re sticking to the fat intake reccomended you’re going to be pretty protein sparing regardless.
My personal opinion is that you don’t need the gram a day folks on a mixed ration need because of the energy density of the AD.
So, to make a long story short, eat your fats and I think you’d be alright.
-Conor
VP2. does anyone have any info/experience w/ this VP2 protein people are raving about? let me know. they say its an isolate but also say its 100% hydrolyzed whey fractions. ANY INFO?
Personal anecdote:
Last week I had some severe energy problems. Frankly, I felt like absolute shit. I was consuming about 1.75g of protein per lbm, and was experiencing glucogenesis. Kinda hard to run off fat effectively when your body is running of the small amout of glucose it gets from extra protein. So, in conclusion, eat less protein, more fat. Cheaper anyway 
I have a question for the carbups.
We know that when you carbup, for the first 24~ hrs, you are storing glycogen and burning fat. What would happen if your macros were like 70C/30P/0F? Would you burn body fat for fuel? (Good) Or would protein be used? (Bad!)
'Then the cyclical ketogenic diets began to appear. These were based on a relatively long period of carb deprivation (normally five straight days) where less than 50 grams of carbohydrates were allowed, followed by one or two days of carbohydrate loading.
While very effective at stimulating fat loss, the long period without carbs isn’t conducive to maximum muscle accumulation. In fact, by the second or third day you’re pretty much in a severe catabolic state. Sure, there’s an anabolic rebound during the loading days. But I’m not sure if this can be enough to compensate for the rest of the week. I do believe that it’s enough to prevent muscle loss on a weekly basis, but not enough to promote maximum muscle gain.’
Does this apply once adapted?
I want to try a 100-gram carb dose mid-week,last meal on Wednesday.
[quote]Wolverin wrote:
'Then the cyclical ketogenic diets began to appear. These were based on a relatively long period of carb deprivation (normally five straight days) where less than 50 grams of carbohydrates were allowed, followed by one or two days of carbohydrate loading.
While very effective at stimulating fat loss, the long period without carbs isn’t conducive to maximum muscle accumulation. In fact, by the second or third day you’re pretty much in a severe catabolic state. Sure, there’s an anabolic rebound during the loading days. But I’m not sure if this can be enough to compensate for the rest of the week. I do believe that it’s enough to prevent muscle loss on a weekly basis, but not enough to promote maximum muscle gain.’
Does this apply once adapted?[/quote]
What is that quote from, and who said it?
[quote]
I want to try a 100-gram carb dose mid-week,last meal on Wednesday.[/quote]
[quote]AceQHounddog wrote:
Wolverin wrote:
'Then the cyclical ketogenic diets began to appear. These were based on a relatively long period of carb deprivation (normally five straight days) where less than 50 grams of carbohydrates were allowed, followed by one or two days of carbohydrate loading.
While very effective at stimulating fat loss, the long period without carbs isn’t conducive to maximum muscle accumulation. In fact, by the second or third day you’re pretty much in a severe catabolic state. Sure, there’s an anabolic rebound during the loading days. But I’m not sure if this can be enough to compensate for the rest of the week. I do believe that it’s enough to prevent muscle loss on a weekly basis, but not enough to promote maximum muscle gain.’
Does this apply once adapted?
What is that quote from, and who said it?
I want to try a 100-gram carb dose mid-week,last meal on Wednesday.
[/quote]
The quote is from CT’s Carb Cycling article.
CA,
If you’re still with us, then go with the following:
Since you are ready to mass (as I take from you post on CT’s article) then you’ve got to get serious.
CONTRARY TO WHAT IS BEING ESPOUSED, DOC D MADE THE AD A “MASS” DIET. How to gain max muscle without getting fat.
If you are thin, under 10%, or just wanting to gain then boost cals to 20x bodyweight. Start here.
Keep CHO under 50g per day. Start here.
Do a single meal in the evening of about 200-300g CHO on Wednesday. Last meal of the day. Few hours before bed.
Do a full Sat and Sun load (will be about 36-38 hours) and consume 5000 cals each day. Use liquid meals when necessary and keep the fat moderate (say 150g) and protein at about the same. Workout, even if it’s only light active recovery sessions and then consume about 25 pro and 80-100g CHO afterward on the loading period.
Now gaining muscle is VERY SIMPLE:
Start at the above. Now systematically add what is necessary in two week increments. Add about 200 cals to your daily intake for 2 weeks and then take inventory. Do it again if necessary. And again, and again.
This diet will put MUSCLE mass on you like crazy IF you do it properly. Part of that process is actually finding the amount you need to eat to gain. You can’t gain muscle without a surplus and the AD affords you opportunity for a larger than normal surplus.
In short, if you aren’t gaining muscle guys, then you simply haven’t been systematic and diligent on finding your necessary intake. You must look in the mirror and take the blame.
Dieting is like training. You find an approach that allows the proper anabolic environment and then maximize volume. The AD puts you in the right hormonal environment (that is not an assumption, but a PROVEN point in much of the literature DiPasquale draws from)and then YOU must find the magic number that gains muscle.
Every human being on earth can gain IF they find the necessary intake.
Remember:
Macronutrient intake = what you gain
Caloric intake = how MUCH you gain.
That is simple fact. Just as CW boils training down to what we really know and then throws out all the assumptive crap, the above will do the same.
Guys, if anybody isn’t gaining after starting with the above, then you’re problem is not a diet or a training regimen, it’s just you.
I hope that doesn’t sound harsh, but sometimes we all need a reality check and a slap in the chops. Consider yourself busted.
Best,
DH
[quote]Charles Atlas wrote:
Well, here is what I get with 4000kcals if I keep protein at 1.5g/lb and CHO at 30g daily:
255g max from PRO-1020kcals
30g max from CHO-120kcals
318g from FAT 2860kcals
Breaks down by % to:
71% Fat
26% PRO
3% CHO
Now I don’t mean to be nitpicky here, but in the copy of the AD I have Dr. D suggests 55-60% Fat, 30-35% Pro, and 5-8% CHO. My values are skewed a bit from this. I’m thinking that it could be because of the 30g CHO limit and my extremely high caloric intake. If I take carbs to 6.5% of my daily kcal, then I get this:
255g max from PRO-1020kcals
65g max from CHO-260kcals
302g from FAT-2720kcals
Breaks down by % to:
26% PRO
6.5% CHO
68% FAT
So I guess the final question is, which one? Should I use either one at all? Any help is appreciated guys!
-CA[/quote]
This is SO untrue that it is irresponsible or at best naive to write. DiPasuale goes over such things in depth and is an expert. I went from 180 to 250 with the AD. From 15.5" arms to 20.5" arms. It is a Mass diet and was formulated for NATURAL athletes, not those assisted or those who fall in the minority on CHO tolerance.
As Poliquin has stated, only about 20-25% of his athletes, and these are serious competitors on a level most of us would only dream of, can tolerate higher CHO. He and Mauro are friends and Doc D transformed Poliquin’s nutritional approach for both himself and his athletes
Look at Poliquin’s transformation when he leaned out on the AD. Milos Sarcev was so impressed that he too began to experiment. DiPasquale used this on himself and others, whom he is able to do blood tests etc. on and has shown it’s effectiveness. The guys in the 50’s,60’s like Rheo Blair, Larry Scott, Vince Gironda (ripped to shreds), Draper, etc… all used it with great results. Modern guys like Rob Faigin, Jay Robb, Poliquin, Bob Sapp have all been quite pleased with this type of diet.
The AD is not only anabolic but ANTI-catabolic and is the absolute optimal diet to add fat free mass with.
I’m really surprised at the lack of hard science etc… in this latest piece. I’ll go so far as to say that anyone asserting such is not only lacking knowledge about the Anabolic Diet, but is quite possibly being irresponsible in passing themselves as an expert on the AD, when even a cursory understanding of the diet would have negated many incorrect statements.
Everyone should do themselves a favor and get the Anabolic Solution and study it. Not just read it, but really grasp what is going on. Then you’ll see truth instead of half informed assumptions.
Best,
DH
[quote]Wolverin wrote:
'Then the cyclical ketogenic diets began to appear. These were based on a relatively long period of carb deprivation (normally five straight days) where less than 50 grams of carbohydrates were allowed, followed by one or two days of carbohydrate loading.
While very effective at stimulating fat loss, the long period without carbs isn’t conducive to maximum muscle accumulation. In fact, by the second or third day you’re pretty much in a severe catabolic state. Sure, there’s an anabolic rebound during the loading days. But I’m not sure if this can be enough to compensate for the rest of the week. I do believe that it’s enough to prevent muscle loss on a weekly basis, but not enough to promote maximum muscle gain.’
Does this apply once adapted?
I want to try a 100-gram carb dose mid-week,last meal on Wednesday.[/quote]
Is it odd to anyone else that our “5 star” rating dropped to a “4” so fast? I didn’t even see 4 1/2 or anything on the downslide.
DH
The Doc and DH have some conversation. Here below for all to listen in on are the goods: ENJOY!
As far as using dextrose right after training, I don’t recommend using it
although it might be useful a half hour or so later. I usually
try and have people use their natural gluconeogenic pathways to supply the
glucose and stimulus they need post workout. However, some people can’t
synthesize the glucose they need for that effect. That’s why it’s one of the
first changes I make in athletes once people are fat adapted is to allow
10-30 grams of high glycemic carbs after training. However, when you’re
cutting I’d keep the carbs to a minimum, say less than 20 grams post workout if you find them necessary.
I’d try it both ways, with no carbs, and say with 10 grams or so of carbs,
and see what works best for your metabolism. No carbs works best for me, but others do better on 10 to 30 grams of carbs after training.
Strict ketogenic diets are not good for gaining mass. Cycling diets on the other hand, if you get your calorie intake and workouts synchronized, are the best mass gaining diet around. A lot revolves on massive intakes of calories on the weekend. Leo, one of my early lab rats, took in as much as 12,000 calories on both Sat and Sunday, while taking in only 3-4,000 calories on the weekdays. He blew up to 310 lbs. and eventually got down to 257 lbs at 6% body fat. His best contest weight prior to going on the Anabolic Diet for a year was 217 lbs at 6% bodyfat.
Having said that, since we’re dealing with a cyclical diet (notice I didn’t say CKD) that has it’s ups and downs of muscle glycogen, insulin levels, intramuscular triglycerides and many other factors, for many people it might suit them best to be lifting at times when their hepatic and muscle glycogen levels are maximized and that would be at the beginning of the week, rather when these levels, especially the muscle glycogen levels, are relatively depleted. As such I would recommend that these people do their hardest training at the beginning of the week and leave the easier stuff and cardio for the end of the week. This, however, is not written in stone and each person must find out what works best for them, both for the training end and the diet itself. My new book, the Metabolic Diet, goes into this in much more detail than the Anabolic Diet.
As far as working out on the weekends, I don’t really see a problem with that. I usually tell people to take the weekends off and use it as a rest/social time and carb up but that’s not written in stone. I’ve known people who found the weekend workouts their most productive and others who didn’t have the motivation to work out when they were carbing up. Again it’s an individual thing. Working out on weekends, if you carb up adequately, shouldn’t interfere with the super compensated muscle glycogen levels that you’re trying to achieve during the carb up phase. For some people, especially those that are sensitive to carbs and tend to bloat up after 12 hours of less of increasing their carbs, working out allows them to carb up for a longer period of time before they hit the bloat.
So again it’s a trial and error thing. Try working out on the weekends using different intensities and volumes, and see how you respond. You’ll notice that I don’t emphasize rules that are fixed in stone. That’s because the whole process is so variable that each person should individualize it by trial and error. The progress you make, how you look and how you feel should guide you in this learning process. The end result is a dieting and training program that is tailored to your unique metabolism and potential.
Limiting the carb intake depending on what needs to be done is a hallmark of the Anabolic Diet. Glutamine is a good carb substitute in that the body can form what carbs it needs from it through gluconeogenesis while at the same time it stimulates insulin both by itself and secondary to its conversion to glucose. I’ve always recommended using glutamine and other compounds that increase insulin production or increase insulin sensitivity, rather than carbs, to both replenish intramuscular glycogen (although this action is a tad limited without the use of carbs no matter how much glutamine you use)
Unfortunately I think he and others misunderstood me. I never said that you gain muscle only on the weekends. I said that it’s on the weekends that you can maximize the anabolic effects of insulin. That doesn’t mean that it’s only on those days that you can increase muscle mass. In fact the following two or three days are excellent days for putting on muscle since muscle glycogen is still relatively high and along with the increased fat oxidation that comes from adaptation to my diets, makes for great workouts and an excellent muscle hypertrophic adaptive response.
It’s only as you get to the latter part of the week, as muscle glycogen levels decrease and you depend more and more of fat as a primary fuel and as such training may be compromised for some people, that the main effect of the diet is to maximize the oxidation of body fat and maintain lean body mass rather than increase it. Even on Thursday and Friday, while you may not increase protein synthesis, you will decrease protein catabolism. Then when carb loading begins on the weekend, insulin levels increase dramatically, along with glycogen stores and protein synthesis. This is the supercompensation that occurs secondary to carb deprivation and a relative hypoinsulinemia that occur on Thursday and Friday.
I’m working on the theory behind all of this so I’m not just pulling it out of the air. Hopefully once I get it all together people like *** will see where I’m coming from. Keep in mind that I like the criticism and comments that others give me. It helps me to get my house in order.
All the “experts” have their views and usually poll the research that backs them up. However, it’s all a lot more complicated than they’re making out and we really don’t have the answers as yet. Some of the research out there is contradictory and some are not done well enough to be able to conclude anything from their results and conclusions. I’m in the process of slugging through all of this now and it will be several weeks before I’ll have it all in place. The bottom line is that a high protein, high fat, low carb diet alternated with a few days of moderate protein, moderate fat and moderate to high carb intake is still the best way to go if your goal is to maximize muscle mass and minimize body fat. I’ll have the information and studies to back all this up in the near future.
Unfortunately everyone I’ve come across who writes about high fat diets is not knowledgeable enough to really make any sense. First of all whether or not a higher fat diet affects insulin sensitivity depends on many factors, one of which is the genetic predisposition. Secondly why is insulin insensitivity in a healthy person who exercises all that bad? It all depends on first of all the insulin receptor complex, the effect of non receptor proteins, and subsequent cellular signaling pathways that are affected by the higher fat diet, secondly on the whether or not insulin resistance, that’s based on the effect of insulin on glucose and not on amino acids and free fatty acids, applies to the muscle cells and/or the fat cells, again depending on a complex series of interactions that we’re still fuzzy about. And there are many other factors to consider.
All in all, saying that a high fat diet will decrease insulin sensitivity and as such increase lipogenesis doesn’t make any scientific sense at all unless you can tie in all the many variables. As far as references, the unfortunate fact is that we know very relatively little about the intricacies mentioned above and no matter how hard you search for the answers in the published literature, you won’t find very many. I’m working in concert with research teams in Australia, Texas and Denmark trying to figure out some of these dynamics and hopefully setting up some research protocols that will give us some of the answers.
BTW recent studies have shown that in fat adapted people, carb loading leads to glycogen supercompensation. So that in itself answers *******'s point. And as far as Ph.D candidates, I gave a lecture to six of them a few days ago at York University and lost them completely more than once.
DH note:
This last sentence was one of my favorites of all! Lost them more than once. This man is called the expert’s expert for a reason.
DH,
I’m also in this diet to gain, and your posts are awesome. Thanks so much.
DH,your help is invaluable.