Comparison with T-Dawg 2.0?
I’ve read the good doctor’s articles and most of this thread. Have any of you guys done say, 12 weeks on the AD, and then a 12 week on T-Dawg? (Sorry if I missed it, if you’ve posted.)
Headhunter - I’m in the middle of converting from the T-Dawg to the AD (low cal - still in fat loss mode). I’ll post my thoughts in a few weeks once I have more experience/results.
Got a PM on this and thought all could enjoy from the reply I gave…
On training, that is very subjective. Consider this…
Should I train power style on compound moves when I’m fully loaded and strong OR would it make more sense to use higher rep bodybuilding when my glycogen is maxed? On the one hand you can push big poundages, on the other you can effectively hit better weight for reps with a full tank. Toward the end of the week perhaps I should hit low reps as these keep the set duration to 10 seconds or less thus utilizing ATP directly for energy. Fat readily provides the ATP for this part of the week. Not so simple a question.
Here again is the key. Adaptation. Real adaptation. Say 4-6 months. At this time you are using FFA’s beautifully, you have triglyceride “on site” to give the fuel. Taking the position of glycogen and glucose. Also, when we do need glucose for longer set durations (20 secs or more)we can derive it from our stores OR, if need be, gluconeogenesis on the fat intake can provide it.
Duchaine seeing this one dimensionally is the big issue. The carb up is indeed important BUT it is NOT the all important issue. The key is the total hormonal cascade. Test, GH, glucagon, insulin etc… The focus on ketosis and then supercompensation is not the point. When you adapt, ketosis takes a hike. The common conception is that we spend the week hanging around and burning a little fat for the all important loading period. Our whole week is shot and an afterthought compared to the load. Way off base as this is far from the point.
During the week while insulin is under control, GH is humming and T levels (suppressed by high CHO intake) are optimized. You have a good/low insulin level to continue shuttling nutrients into the muscle. We are using insulin as a weapon to create high T, and GH levels during the week, and then for a forced anabolic event on the loads. You see one side is as necessary and anabolic as the other. ONCE you adapt.
On training, Doc is an old school PL and readily concedes the reins to the individual to see how they choose to order their training. You don’t need to build a workout around this diet. You would IF you forever stayed in the ketosis cycle but once you fully adapt, you don’t need to. The only thing I do is avoid anything strenuous on my last low carb day. This is dictated by experience and individuality. Ready for a surprise? I do well with low reps toward wed and thurs. Again, because ATP is center stage and because I’m fully adapted. You see everyone wants to base a strategy around a transient state of ketosis before a good solid adaptation occurs. Crazy. They look at what the body is doing the first month or so and ASSUME this scenario is the new norm.
Now you know why Duchaine and Lyle are some of my biggest annoyances. They made laws, formulas and judgements before adaptation gets to really settle in. That’s what I mean by “good observation, bad conclusion” or starring at the finger pointing instead of what the finger is pointing at. Di Pas points this out over and over but people still fail to see the subtle but important difference.
On your personal best loading parameters, that will take time and patience. You wont learn this baby in a few weeks, as I’m sure you know. This is a new learning process for a new metabolic state. It wont likely come quickly. I still tweek it and sometimes my “formula” doesn’t always do as good as winging it with some common sense. Try hammering the CHO for massive calories from time to time. Nothing is static.
Remember that Berardi points out that some people can’t lose weight until the push calories up to surprisingly high “bulking” numbers. So much for making sense or having all the numbers just right. ;-). The human body is an unpredictable thing.
Going with Duchaine’s formula for 12-16g/kg LBM is fine, but again, from where are these numbers derived? Atletes that spend more time in the aerobic and glycolytic pathways such as cyclists? Can it be extrapolated to almost purely anaerobic athletes such as ourselves? Possibly. We don’t know. Honestly, once you train for a long while your own sense is better than a formula.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s good to have a starting place but it’s kinda like the varied formulas for caloric intake. Gives you a ballpark but don’t get married to it. Its all relative. Also look at the concept of calories in/calories out where we know that energy balance doesn’t work in a neat 1:1 ratio. See how something can look good on paper and can be “proven” by a scientist and a calculator, but when we discover some new aspect/process of the body we must alter our concepts, sometimes drastically?
The load numbers are variable as you would suspect. I like fat at 25%. Better load and stronger. But I’m very adapted and consequently at the point where I burn fat for at least the first 24 hours of the load along with glucose. GH, contrary to it’s usual nature, also stays elevated. See how adaptation changes much of what we “know” about ourselves? When you are reading research you must make sure that the variables tested match those in your life, otherwise you can’t pull too much info from it. It’s just not applicable if you aren’t in the study “mold”.
For instance, caffeine increases insulin in the presence of CHO, but burns fat in the absence of CHO and it’s concurrent insulin rise. And again, for a CHO eater, insulin and GH work in an antagonistic fashion versus the above. Another anomaly of adaptation.
Try working out over the load with whatever days (MxS or hypertrophy or whatever) to see if you get a better/ different load. Or try just the opposite so that you aren’t tapping your supply while trying to fill. And one more thing. Try upping your fat from your usual 15%. Once adapted, fat INCREASES the insulin response to CHO instead of the conventional wisdom that fat slows the digestion and therefore the insulin release.
Best,
DH
Okay guys, I have a problem. I have been battling lethargy the past ten days or so. It’s to the point that I’m starting to miss meals and workouts because I’ll be asleep for so much of the day.
I started working nights 6 weeks or so ago, from 11pm to 7 am, with about a 45 minute drive on each end. At first it didn’t really bother me, I nailed a test the second week after I started. However, it’s gone down hill, and I bombed a test in the same course a week ago. It’s hard to go to class and function when you’re asleep for hours on end and too exhausted to leave the house.
Is there something I need to be doing? Possibly some nutrient I’m not getting? I added b complex the other day and it doesn’t seem to be helping. I ate a big breakfast after work this morning thinking that might help but it didn’t, in fact I slept the longest I have in weeks. (I only got three hours of sleep yesterday though, so I think today was kinf of a fluke.)
Any ideas?
[quote]conorh wrote:
Okay guys, I have a problem. I have been battling lethargy the past ten days or so. It’s to the point that I’m starting to miss meals and workouts because I’ll be asleep for so much of the day.
I started working nights 6 weeks or so ago, from 11pm to 7 am, with about a 45 minute drive on each end. At first it didn’t really bother me, I nailed a test the second week after I started. However, it’s gone down hill, and I bombed a test in the same course a week ago. It’s hard to go to class and function when you’re asleep for hours on end and too exhausted to leave the house.
Is there something I need to be doing? Possibly some nutrient I’m not getting? I added b complex the other day and it doesn’t seem to be helping. I ate a big breakfast after work this morning thinking that might help but it didn’t, in fact I slept the longest I have in weeks. (I only got three hours of sleep yesterday though, so I think today was kinf of a fluke.)
Any ideas?[/quote]
I feel ya dog, sorry about that intro, nobody in Idaho talks like that but I just got done watching ‘Coach Carter’ and it kind of rubbed off on me. Night Shift just sucks, no way around it. I worked for 9 years rotating from 7 am to 7pm then 7pm to 7am. It takes awhile for your body to adjust to working nights, that is if it ever adjusts. When I worked nights I would hit my workout right after waking up. I tried to go right after work a couple of times but was too beat to do any good. Strange enough I found that not drinking coffee was better in the long run. At first I drank strong, black coffee as much as I could. By the time morning rolled around I was so jacked I couldn’t sleep for an hour after getting home. Later on I quit coffee and it was a bit of a panic driving home that first time as I’d convinced myself that I’d fall asleep driving if I didn’t have coffee. Over time my body/system adjusted and I was able to sleep and wake up much better without the coffee. Just give it some time. Nights just kill you at first but humans are built to adapt. If your gym is very far away you might think about working out in the garage. This way you won’t be beaten down by the drive. Keep up on the AD. I first tried the AD when on that crazy shift and the AD was just great to keep my energy up. Beware of the goodies fellow night shifters bring to work. Where I worked everybody brought donuts and cookies and all kinds of junk to munch on at night.
Barry
Okay, can I just say that Hoss, you rule. With some of the trolls on this forum it is refreshing to get posts filled with knowledge and made with the desire to help. Thanks.
Thank you, JC. It’s one of my passions and my pleasure. I don’t know it all, but I’ve got a few tid bits. ;-).
Best,
DH
Like my new Avatar? Big, dumb, lovable Hoss from Bonanza!
[quote]JohnnyChainsaw wrote:
Okay, can I just say that Hoss, you rule. With some of the trolls on this forum it is refreshing to get posts filled with knowledge and made with the desire to help. Thanks.[/quote]
ConorH,
I’ve been on/off nights for 8 years. It does get better and here are a few tips:
When you get up take a brisk walk in some fresh air and sunlight. This will send messages to your brain to become alert.
Put sheets of cardboard covered with aluminum foil on your bedroom windows. Make sure you seal every crack and face the Al to the outside to reflect sunlight. I also use a sleep mask (local drug store) and earplugs to sleep. I have a fan on low speed to give an additional low droning noise to block out cars/lawnmowers/dogs barking/kids, etc…
You MUST sleep in complete darkness and quiet. It’s been shown that our body actually begins to awaken when even our SKIN is exposed to sunlight let alone our eyes. My room is like a tomb at Fort Knox.
Tell everyone you know that you are NOT available from 8am-5pm. Yeah that’s right. 9 hours. Your quality of sleep is just not on par with night sleep and you need a good amount. Tell them that if they call or bug you, you’re going to do the same to them on your lunch break at 3am. Nobody considers it acceptable to bug people at night and it is equally unacceptable for others to bug you. You’ve got to get direct all the time and downright rude a few times. Trust me. ;-).
Try using about 300-600mcg of Melatonin (Melatonex w/B6) works well. Use it for a week or two. Then wean off. It’s not good long term.
Avoid caffeine 3-5 hours before bedtime.
Use a dose of PowerDrive if you need a pickup. 1-1 1/2 dose only. More is too much tyrosine and too many CHO.
Go to bed at the SAME TIME everyday. You MUST give your body a schedule to adjust to. You cannot adjust to haphazard sleep bouts. You will feel hideous. I went a few months without working out and thinking I was losing my mind until I really knuckled down on this.
Keep your bedroom cool. You cannot sleep comfortably in heat.
Go to bed when you get home. You are not available or “home” to:
take care of the kids
run errands
make phone calls
pay bills
do physical labor (like mowing lawn)
etc…
SCHEDULE YOUR SLEEP OR PEOPLE WILL STEAL IT FROM YOU!
Everyone I work with complains and feels like a zombie because they hit the “honey do” list when they get home. Wifey feels that now you are her’s and she has some things for you to do. NO. Be direct. She doesn’t get assaulted with laundry, errands, and the like at 3am. People have the most difficult time getting this through their thick heads. To them you are home and you are up. Perfect time to get something done. Remind them you just worked and now must sleep so that you may work again or those bills won’t get paid at all. You’ll have to train people to think beyond their own little world and empathize with your situation. They won’t go without kicking and sreaming usually.
Best,
DH
Shoot, I’m mad now. 
Thanks Moz and Hoss, that just about covered everything.
The best solution, I believe is giving them my two weeks notice Monday,
This was just a summer job before school mind you, so it’s not like I’m bailing unexpectedly.
Thanks.
I second those thanks to AD vets like DH, Barry, IC and all. It’s pretty freakin’ rare to have a direct line to those who have gone through exactly what you are going through, and I think we all really appreciate it.
BTW Barry-At least half the “guys” in my “gym” talk like that, but it’s free (college rec center) and I’ve got an mp3 player. The other day I asked for a dip belt at the check out center, and the lilly-white, A+F drenched, fake blond asked “Are you trippin’ dawg? What be 'dat?” Needless to say, I ended up using a dumbbell that day.
-CA
[quote]Charles Atlas wrote:
I second those thanks to AD vets like DH, Barry, IC and all. It’s pretty freakin’ rare to have a direct line to those who have gone through exactly what you are going through, and I think we all really appreciate it.
BTW Barry-At least half the “guys” in my “gym” talk like that, but it’s free (college rec center) and I’ve got an mp3 player. The other day I asked for a dip belt at the check out center, and the lilly-white, A+F drenched, fake blond asked “Are you trippin’ dawg? What be 'dat?” Needless to say, I ended up using a dumbbell that day.
-CA[/quote]
Well I guess somebody in Idaho talks like that then! You know I lived in California 20+ years ago and met a whole lot of Hispanics and Black people and I don’t remember them talking like that. Where in the world did this kind of dialect come from? That show Coach Carter was from a true story right in Calif. Thanks for the thanks on the advice. It is a good thing for me to see some guys sticking with the AD. Like I’ve said before I preached the AD to fellow gym rats years ago and not one of them stuck it out past the third or fourth week. Keep up the good work.
Barry
Thanx, DH. Good food for thought.
[quote]mozhne wrote:
Well I guess somebody in Idaho talks like that then! You know I lived in California 20+ years ago and met a whole lot of Hispanics and Black people and I don’t remember them talking like that. Where in the world did this kind of dialect come from? That show Coach Carter was from a true story right in Calif. Thanks for the thanks on the advice. It is a good thing for me to see some guys sticking with the AD. Like I’ve said before I preached the AD to fellow gym rats years ago and not one of them stuck it out past the third or fourth week. Keep up the good work.
Barry[/quote]
Yeah, I dunno what the deal is. I guess I see the worst of it because I go to school here at BSU, and that’s where most of the “city kids” congregate. Thanks man.
-CA
Just finished my 2nd carb up. Down 14lbs since I started. Went right into a cutting cycle after my first carb up. Diet rocks and for everyone just starting it. Just really stick with it and hang in there the first 2 weeks. I was gagging when I first started because I wasn’t use to eating so much meat. Now I crave it like a zombie craves brains. For anyone that has something bad to say about it. This mornings breakfast. Steak, eggs and bacon. How was you egg whites and wheat toast?
Ha Ha Ha,
I know what you mean. Looking back at my food log, I used to eat oat bran, fruit, and cottage cheese for breakfast. Now it’s eggs, bacon, and some of whatever I had for dinner the night before, (usually steak or pork).
Feeling great today, I’ve been getting better and better since I started eating large amounts of those veggies DH mentioned. This weekend I really emphasized starchy carbs, (e.g. bread, pasta, oatmeal, etc.) and it seemed to help. I felt really tight at the end of my carb-up last night, and I feel great now. I’m gonna eat one more time, take some Power Drive, and head to the gym. Hopefully I am now becoming a fat burner.
I want to thank MDrag, DH, Mozhne, and everyone else who have made this an awesome thread. You guys inspired me to retry the AD on July 4th weekend, and the results have been awesome so far! I tried the diet back when I was in college, but not having access to a kitchen killed me. I was all crash and never saw all the benefits this monster provides. All that being said, I found some interesting things in my search for information that I thought I would post.
- Here is something interesting to look at with respect to maintaining favorable hormonal profiles while using AD to cut fat:
An interesting thing to check out here is the similarities in the molecular structures of testosterone and cholesterol. As DH said, the body will make liberal use of anything that it contains in abundance. If the body has cholesterol in abundance, it will make use of it to make testosterone because the process to create testosterone from cholesterol is the simplest (perhaps only?) one that exists.
Metaphorically, it would be like wanting to get permission from your boss to do something. Should you just go directly and ask, or should you do all of the leg work, present a compelling argument, and require no more work from him than his signature? Essentially your doing the same thing with your body. You present a hypocaloric state combined with all of the building blocks necessary to maintain favorable hormonal profiles. (I think this might be a good takeaway for Owen70).
All that being said, there still needs to be a sanity check on the food taken in. The garbage in = garbage out rule applies here. You probably won?t maintain the best hormonal profiles on hotdogs and pork rinds. Quality fats from whole meats and olive oil plus the necessary green veggies are what you should be looking for while using AD to cut bodyfat. (This has been stated quite a few times by the veteran ADers on this board.)
- Here is an interesting excerpt from the following site regarding the relative health merits of fats (to include saturated fats): Fats, Oils, Fatty Acids, Triglycerides - Chemical Structure (Page 3 of 3)
The Fat Free Craze
The concept that some fats are essential for good health is just emerging in the awareness of the general public, but the aversion to fat resulting from many years of indoctrination against fat has resulted in great consumer demand for low-fat or nonfat products. Some manufacturers, eager to increase their sales, concoct products that use monoglycerides, diglycerides, or fatty acid esters of polyglycerol, and argue that these products are “Fat Free” because only triglycerides are fats.
Average consumers eat these products under the illusion that they are low in calories because the manufacturers do not disclose the calories of these components in the Nutrition Facts. In addition, most products containing monoglycerides, diglycerides, or artificial fats do not state whether the constituent fatty acids are saturated or hydrogenated. New regulations are often adopted as a reaction to abuses like this, but it is a slow process that may be further delayed by lobbying and enables manufacturers to continue reaping profits in the meantime.
Saturated Fats
For many years, saturated fats were equated with the “artery clogging” deleterious health effects associated with trans fats. Many authoritative medical sources advise decreasing the consumption of saturated fats because there is a relationship between serum total cholesterol concentrations and saturated fatty acid intake. However, several scientific studies indicate that saturated fats have beneficial biological effects and differ significantly from trans fats which are always bad.
It is worthwhile noting that the butterfat in human milk has 20% more saturated fats than lard. Saturated fatty acids, particularly medium chain fatty acids such as lauric and capric acids, have been found to play an important role in supporting the immune system. Studies of the effects of specific fatty acids on serum cholesterol levels have shown that of the three most common saturated fatty acids in tallow and lard, only myristic acid increases the level of cholesterol in the blood substantially, whereas stearic acid has no effect, and the polyunsaturated linoleic acid decreases it.
The quantitative relationship expressed by the Hegsted equation suggests that blood cholesterol levels may be lowered naturally by adding to our diet sources of linoleic acid such as safflower, sunflower, or grape seed oils.
okay guys- first monday after weekend load and I can definitely say that 24 hrs is MUCH better. Last weekend i felt like i was falling into a coma, and actually my training session suffered!
I carb up Sunday on Pasta, flax meal and whey- and I was a monster in the gym today (monday). Another thing I’ve realized- I don’t count calories over the weekend carb load, but now that i know 24 hrs is my limit- I also realized that i go not by the mirror (if I’m smoothing out as the good Dr says in the book- Cause I’m already smooth!) but when i start to drift I know I’ve had enough carbs- Has anyone else felt this after carb loading?
I was back on protien powder + udo’s/virgin coconut oil. Felt good all day.
So today was my first on the diet. I ate about 3900 cals and I’m starving. I thought it might be hard to eat this much, but when its steak and cheese and bacon, salads with olive oil and almonds and fish oil supps, its pretty easy. Felt a little down today, but that’s probably because I got about four hours of sleep last night.
Great to see some new blood posting! The down and dirty is that this diet rocks, you just have to play with sources, durations, and calories. But these are the details. The big picture is emerging as the AD’s thrust is the hormonal shift that it causes that the load and concurrent insulin spike is only a part. Albeit important, but it’s nothing without the full benefits of adaptation.
Now I hope it is becoming more clear as to what I meant the difference is between the “copycats” and the real AD. The focus being on ketosis and rebounding is taking the adaptation process and assuming it perpetuates itself forever. The adaptation emphasis says “you ain’t seen nothin’ yet”. Once you adapt, you are a new breed.
DH
Ok boys, I had a crisis going on here over the last week that caused me to not really give two shits about my diet or training. Basically I came off the diet for all intents and purposes.
Yesterday I came to my senses (plus the crisis ended…it’s not a boy or a girl) and I started back in on the AD. My question is, after this one week “carb up” do I need to endure the full 12 day entrance again? or if I go 5/2 will it get me back to where I want to be.
On a side note… I felt like shit the entire week, sure there were some other things contributing to it, but I was tired all the damn time and had the energy of a tortise. I would go to bed much earlier and had trouble waking up. I was late to work every single day (good thing i’m the boss) which is weird I am usually the first one here.
I am going to also start encorporating sprints into my weekly planner, Charles, What day do you do yours on?
V