[quote]Bronx Bomber wrote:
NOt to be a dick, but this diet is outdated and sucks. Jeff rage made a valid suggestion. UD2 Can’t be beat. You might as well do protein cycling for all the good this will do.
Not to be a dick. and who wants to read through 12 pages of an ineffective diet?
[/quote]
Thanks for those gems. As stated previously, this thread is for assisting those using this diet, it is not to convince people to use it. If you want to use UD2, go ahead and do it.
I’ll leave my comments to this:
Somebody doesn’t have the first clue as to the real dynamics of the AD. A little clue…if the term ketogenic is being thrown around, you just missed the bus stop. Check out Di Pasquale’s writing and educate yourself.
Know anybody with the credentials both professionally and competitively of Di Pasquale? I didn’t think so. Thats why Mauro is called “the expert’s expert” in not only performance nutrition but also AAS. He writes texts for collegiate and professional usage and serves on some of the highest boards in medicine and sport. Oh and in his spare time he makes programs that “suck” and are “dated”.
If one can’t grace us with the respect to actually read the aforementioned pages in the thread where this has been addressed and cannot put forth some effort on doing some REAL reading, then don’t bother to stop by. Really, what’s the point. Ironically, what you are looking for is in there, but you are evidently too lazy to read. How’s the training going with that “drive”, bro?
Perhaps someone is jealous of the biggest most successful thread on a legit topic in T-Mag history…
You refuted you own points. Jeff Rage says the diet is good and worked for a lot of people, you then commend his conclusions, then you state that is sucks. Very smart and professional of you.
Get with the program. The Metabolic Diet (written for the medical community and the lay public) came out in 2000. The Anabolic Solution for BB and PL came out in 2002. Know what you are talking about before you speak. Makes you look much smarter.
DH
[quote]Bronx Bomber wrote:
mdragon wrote:
Jeff Rage wrote:
Wow, 12 pages! (Too much for me to read.)
This is an old CKD. It has worked for many people. However, I would suggest looking at Bodyopus or The Ketogenic Diet for more updated versions of such a diet.
Honestly you may want to find a different thread if you are going to argue for BodyOpus. I don’t think anyone on this thread will bother arguing and if you read all 12 pages you’ll find the diets you mentioned have been discussed and thrown out of our minds as being options. Not being a dick but this is a thread about the AD and how to implement it. Not an arguement for a “better” diet.
NOt to be a dick, but this diet is outdated and sucks. Jeff rage made a valid suggestion. UD2 Can’t be beat. You might as well do protein cycling for all the good this will do.
Not to be a dick. and who wants to read through 12 pages of an ineffective diet?
[/quote]
excellent thread folks.
I’m moving along pretty well, just had a question for those in the know…
what’s the best way to handle an “out of schedule” carb up? I’m not referring to a moment of weakness in which I down a bag of cookies, I’m curious more about what the best plan of action would be for a planned mid-week carb deviation.
example: getting in carbs wednesday and thursday. is it best to skip the previous weekends carb up, then skip the following one as well? or should there be a brief carb up, or maybe carb meal the weekend before?
obviously, the simplest option is to not deviate from the schedule, but if it seems inevitable, what’s the best method?
[quote]Bronx Bomber wrote:
mdragon wrote:
Jeff Rage wrote:
Wow, 12 pages! (Too much for me to read.)
This is an old CKD. It has worked for many people. However, I would suggest looking at Bodyopus or The Ketogenic Diet for more updated versions of such a diet.
Honestly you may want to find a different thread if you are going to argue for BodyOpus. I don’t think anyone on this thread will bother arguing and if you read all 12 pages you’ll find the diets you mentioned have been discussed and thrown out of our minds as being options. Not being a dick but this is a thread about the AD and how to implement it. Not an arguement for a “better” diet.
NOt to be a dick, but this diet is outdated and sucks. Jeff rage made a valid suggestion. UD2 Can’t be beat. You might as well do protein cycling for all the good this will do.
Not to be a dick. and who wants to read through 12 pages of an ineffective diet?
[/quote]
Must be hanging out with the DieselWeasel huh?
[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
I’ll leave my comments to this:
Somebody doesnt have a friggin clue as to the real dynamics of the diet. For one it is not ketogenic. Check out Di Pasquale’s writing and educate yourself. The ignorance!
Know anybody with the credentials both professionally and competitively of Di Pasquale? I didn’t think so.
If one can’t grace us with the respect to actually read the aforementioned pages in the thread where this has been addressed and cannot put forth some effort on doing some REAL reading, then don’t bother to stop by. Really, what’s the point.
Perhaps someone is jealous of the biggest most successful thread on a legit topic in T-Mag history…
DH
[/quote]
I agree with all your points DH. What I’m wondering though, is why haven’t other T-Nation vets or big names chimed in to support Pisquale’s particular diet in this thread or otherwise recently? Whereas I have seen ud2 mentioned a few times by some T-Nation ‘experts’.
Good question/point. Chad Waterbury was just asked what he though of it on one of his last two articles. He said he felt it was a good diet
. Also, Charles Poliquin uses it (friends with and influenced by Dr. DiPas) with nearly ALL of his athletes. Noticed how much leaner he got in the last few years? He introduced it to Milos Sarcev too. Made note that Milos was impressed with how lean Charles stayed all the time with little effort. Poliquin monkeys around with carb load durations with different ranges of bodyfat for his trainees. Dave Barr is also highly respectful of Dr. D and enjoys his work. There are other reasons too, but that above is a good start.
Best,
DH
[quote]luddini wrote:
Disc Hoss wrote:
I’ll leave my comments to this:
Somebody doesnt have a friggin clue as to the real dynamics of the diet. For one it is not ketogenic. Check out Di Pasquale’s writing and educate yourself. The ignorance!
Know anybody with the credentials both professionally and competitively of Di Pasquale? I didn’t think so.
If one can’t grace us with the respect to actually read the aforementioned pages in the thread where this has been addressed and cannot put forth some effort on doing some REAL reading, then don’t bother to stop by. Really, what’s the point.
Perhaps someone is jealous of the biggest most successful thread on a legit topic in T-Mag history…
DH
I agree with all your points DH. What I’m wondering though, is why haven’t other T-Nation vets or big names chimed in to support Pisquale’s particular diet in this thread or otherwise recently? Whereas I have seen ud2 mentioned a few times by some T-Nation ‘experts’.[/quote]
Well this could go a few ways. If it happens to fall in the middle of the week then that’s fine. Keep it small and quick. It wont hurt if it is infrequent. Packing and planning goes a long way and you can always order a steak, grilled vegetables and a salad at any decent restaurant.
If a holiday like Christmas comes around what I’ll do is something like the hypothetical following:
Christmas eve is on Tues, and Christmas day is on Wed.
Follow the normal 5 days of fat/protein
Consume about 200g of CHO in a meal or two during Saturday evening.
Back to fat/protein again until Tues (Christmas Eve) and then do a normal full 36-48 hour load (tues am until wed pm). Eat all the goodies you want and don’t worry about it. 
Then do a week of fat/protein
You will now be in cycle to do another load for New Year’s Eve and New Year’s Day. This too would be tues and wed.
Go until Saturday and have a FULL day of CHO loading. Or Sunday. Just ONE day.
Normal week until the next normal weekend load. You are now back in cycle.
Short: Space a carb meal about 3 days away from a load and then lessen the following load or hit this same sequence (1-2 meals or 200-300g CHO)to get back in normal cycle.
I used the above example of Christmas and New Years because they are really big eating and drinking days and they are one week apart. How convenient!!
Other holidays such as Easter are on a weekend so that works out well.
Summer holidays are perfect either way. Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day are great for grilling so we can have a fat/protein day. Or if it is on the weekend, then throw in some baked beans, tater salad, and pie!
Thanksgiving. I do only a one day load the weeked before on Saturday. Then do a full load on Thanksgiving and the day after. Then go low carb till the next weekend. This is nearly a normal cycle.
Now you’re set!!
DH
[quote]xtolgax wrote:
excellent thread folks.
I’m moving along pretty well, just had a question for those in the know…
what’s the best way to handle an “out of schedule” carb up? I’m not referring to a moment of weakness in which I down a bag of cookies, I’m curious more about what the best plan of action would be for a planned mid-week carb deviation.
example: getting in carbs wednesday and thursday. is it best to skip the previous weekends carb up, then skip the following one as well? or should there be a brief carb up, or maybe carb meal the weekend before?
obviously, the simplest option is to not deviate from the schedule, but if it seems inevitable, what’s the best method?[/quote]
We have our first troll…our thread is truly successful now.
[quote]Bronx Bomber wrote:
mdragon wrote:
Jeff Rage wrote:
Wow, 12 pages! (Too much for me to read.)
This is an old CKD. It has worked for many people. However, I would suggest looking at Bodyopus or The Ketogenic Diet for more updated versions of such a diet.
Honestly you may want to find a different thread if you are going to argue for BodyOpus. I don’t think anyone on this thread will bother arguing and if you read all 12 pages you’ll find the diets you mentioned have been discussed and thrown out of our minds as being options. Not being a dick but this is a thread about the AD and how to implement it. Not an arguement for a “better” diet.
NOt to be a dick, but this diet is outdated and sucks. Jeff rage made a valid suggestion. UD2 Can’t be beat. You might as well do protein cycling for all the good this will do.
Not to be a dick. and who wants to read through 12 pages of an ineffective diet?
[/quote]
As I’ve said before, “Let us play in our sandbox and you play in yours.” We don’t need to play together. Not a thread to argue the validity of the diet, it is a thread to learn this outdated sucky diet. We like out dated. BTW Dan John likes this diet too.
Just talked to Dan John through e-mail and he said it is one of his favorite diets.
[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
Good question/point. Chad Waterbury was just asked what he though of it on one of his last two articles. He said he felt it was a good diet
. Also, Charles Poliquin uses it (friends with and influenced by Dr. DiPas) with nearly ALL of his athletes. Noticed how much leaner he got in the last few years? He introduced it to Milos Sarcev too. Made note that Milos was impressed with how lean Charles stayed all the time with little effort. Poliquin monkeys around with carb load durations with different ranges of bodyfat for his trainees. Dave Barr is also highly respectful of Dr. D and enjoys his work. There are other reasons too, but that above is a good start.
Best,
DH
luddini wrote:
Disc Hoss wrote:
I’ll leave my comments to this:
Somebody doesnt have a friggin clue as to the real dynamics of the diet. For one it is not ketogenic. Check out Di Pasquale’s writing and educate yourself. The ignorance!
Know anybody with the credentials both professionally and competitively of Di Pasquale? I didn’t think so.
If one can’t grace us with the respect to actually read the aforementioned pages in the thread where this has been addressed and cannot put forth some effort on doing some REAL reading, then don’t bother to stop by. Really, what’s the point.
Perhaps someone is jealous of the biggest most successful thread on a legit topic in T-Mag history…
DH
I agree with all your points DH. What I’m wondering though, is why haven’t other T-Nation vets or big names chimed in to support Pisquale’s particular diet in this thread or otherwise recently? Whereas I have seen ud2 mentioned a few times by some T-Nation ‘experts’.
[/quote]
So I think I have been inspiried to give this a go. My only question is, after reading Dr. D’s books, both for powerlifters and BBers, would this be a good diet for a guy who does athetic type training? Not that powerlifters aren’t athelets, but I’m just finishing Waterbury’s SFM and am going to be moving to Westside for Skinny Bastards with a lot of sprint work.
Would I just need to up the carbs a wee bit here and there as needed to compensate for the additional energy systems work that I’ll be doing opposed to people who just lift?
[quote]JohnnyChainsaw wrote:
So I think I have been inspiried to give this a go. My only question is, after reading Dr. D’s books, both for powerlifters and BBers, would this be a good diet for a guy who does athetic type training? Not that powerlifters aren’t athelets, but I’m just finishing Waterbury’s SFM and am going to be moving to Westside for Skinny Bastards with a lot of sprint work.
Would I just need to up the carbs a wee bit here and there as needed to compensate for the additional energy systems work that I’ll be doing opposed to people who just lift?[/quote]
This is only based on my personal experience but…
You don’t need to up the carbs at all until you’ve figured out how you respond to the diet. Don’t be worried about the energy systems work, I had no problems even when starting out. To give you some idea of my energy systems workload that week, I was taking 20lb. X-Vest walks for 30mins upon waking every day in addition to 2 “Running Man” style interval sprint sessions per week, (at the "good shape level, weeks 3 and 4), and in addition to this on Friday (the least “carb-loaded” day of the week) I did an X-Vest century circuit with 18lbs.
I’ve actually found, (despite my small problems with the AD), that I have a ton more energy for bike riding, sprinting, basketball etc. It seems that you have a good deal more energy to “grind” out the last few miles, or sprints, or whatever. It’s like you can just reach down in your belly and pull out as much of that energy-rich fat as you need to complete the task. I’m not saying it doesn’t hurt, but there is a noticable difference, at least for me. This is one of the key reasons I’ve stuck with the AD, in spite of the fact that I haven’t yet gotten some of the positive aspects of the diet others have. Sorry for the rant.
Dnis,
As long as you keep fat at least 40-45% you will be fine. Just means that you’ll need to make up the difference with protein NOT CHO. In fact, when cutting you can go to something like:
40F/5-10CHO/50-55P (percentages)
Just don’t dip below 40% or you’ll begin to draw too much energy from protein and give your body a “taste” to perhaps tap into muscle for energy. Speculation on my part, but Doc D says go no lower than 40%.
Creatine, which provides ATP, is great for any day on the diet. One could argue that given enough red meat you wouldn’t “need” it, but I like it and feel better on it. I only do 5g per day as Dave Barr has convinced me that higher amounts are not needed. Remember, we use FFA’s broken down into ATP for fuel instead of glycogen broken down into ATP. Contrary to popular belief you DON’T need CHO because ATP is the primary fuel (along with intramuscular triglyceride) and can easily be attained from fat. The rest of your day is spent using fats in the oxidative system for energy. Adding creatine just helps with our supply. On the weekends, it’s great for the pump, too.
Many of us use/recommend/support:
Protein powder (Support T-mag’s Grow)
Fish Oil
Olive Oil (better than coconut oil)
Vitamin/Mineral combos
Surge (On weekend workouts only for a real blast/pump)
ZMA (cool before bed)
PowerDrive (My other coffee and a real help with CNS recovery
C19 (fine with any diet)
AlphaMale (great with any diet)
HotRox (for fat loss at Mach speed)
Creatine (good for any diet)
Any of the above are fine and many others are too. Should give you a “go” list.
DH
Also, anybody notice what copious amounts of modern drugs can do for Lou Ferrigno? If anybody has Pumping Iron then look at the difference. Know what? Louie (and all the guys in the 60’s and 70’s) look better back then IMHO. Ah the good ol’ days of safe/sane AAS usage.
Thought I’d shoot this out again as it is lost in the “netherworld” of this monster thread:
From Mauro DiPasquale:
At this point, a little biochemistry lesson may be in order so you can get a better idea of why The Metabolic Diet is superior to the competition. Adenosine Triphosphate (ATP) is the source of all metabolic activity in the human body. In order to get the energy the body needs for muscle contraction, breathing, brain cell function and virtually all other activities, ATP must be generated. People have gotten the idea that you must have the glycogen and the glucose that comes from carbohydrates for the body to produce and replenish ATP and survive. What people don’t understand is that the body can produce glucose without taking in carbs (gluconeogenesis) and that protein and fat can be used to provide energy and
replenish ATP. It’s a misconception that you must have large amounts of dietary carbs to function. When carbohydrates make up the bulk of your diet, you basically burn the glucose from the carbs as energy. Glucose enters the bloodstream and it’s either used for immediate energy or stored as glycogen in the liver and muscles. The glucose not stored as glycogen is made into triglycerides (bodyfat). When needed for energy, the stored glycogen is converted back to glucose and used up directly by a cell or transported through the bloodstream to other body cells for conversion and use as energy. When fat and protein make up more of your diet, you don’t have those large amounts of glycogen or glucose available for energy anymore. Most of your energy will come from the breakdown of free fatty acids in your diet or from the fat stored on your
body. As we discussed, some of the energy will come from glucose that is produced from mainly from glycerol (part of our body fat) and amino acids (at least on low carb diets). Instead of burning the stored glycogen or glucose for energy, the body burns free fatty acids or triglycerides (the storage form of the free fatty acids) and the glucose that it makes. Basically, a diet high in fat activates the lipolytic (fat burning) enzymes in your body and decreases the activity of the lipogenic (fat producing) enzymes. Dietary free fatty acids and triglycerides become the body’s main energy source. The triglycerides are broken down to free fatty acids and then ketones, a source that can be used for energy by body cells. In short, the free fatty acids and ketones take the place of glucose and the triglycerides act like glycogen. When carbs are the main form of energy to the body, the body produces insulin to process it and store it. This is all well and good but one of the problems with insulin is that it activates the lipogenic (fat producing) enzymes on the body and decreases the activity of the lipolytic (fat burning) enzymes. What this leads to is an increased storing of body fat and a decrease in the amount of stored fat that will be burned. The exact opposite occurs on the higher fat/lower carb diet. After undergoing the “metabolic shift” from being a carb-burning machine to a fat-burner, lipogenesis (the production and laying down of fat on the body) decreases, and lipolysis (the burning
of both dietary and bodyfat for energy) increases. You’re burning fat as your primary fuel, and instead of using glycogen or breaking down precious protein, you’ll burn off the fat on your body for energy as needed. This can have a big effect on overall bodyfat, and research has now begun to document the fact that while on a higher fat low carb diet, weight loss is due to the almost exclusive loss of bodyfat. In one study of ideal-weight human subjects, it was found that higher fat diets were accompanied by a very strong lipolytic (fat-burning) effect. In another study focusing on obese subjects, it was found that, when offered high carb/relatively low fat diets or low carb/relatively higher fat diets, the subjects on the lower carb diets lost significantly more fat. Though prevailing wisdom would predict that the higher fat diet would simply make people fatter, they actually lost more weight on the higher fat diet. It may sound crazy, but that’s the way the body works. Contrary to what most
people believe fat oxidation is regulated primarily by carbohydrate intake rather than by fat intake. Once you’ve adapted to a higher fat/low carb diet, fat doesn’t beget fat. Despite what you’ve been told, a properly designed higher fat/lower carb diet doesn’t put fat on. It takes fat off. Similar results have occurred in animal studies. Meanwhile, I’ve seen and heard of the positive effects of a high-fat diet time and time again both in my own practice, and from countless others who have tried it. The fat melts away. At the same time, as a bonus, body tone can be improved markedly thanks to the “protein protecting” nature of the diet.
Concerning energy systems work… I’ve been pulling the sled for 50 meters (down slight grade) and 50 meters (up slight grade) = 1 rep. I’ve been performing 8-10 reps with around 300 for cardiovascular work every day this week. I’ve been amazed at my lack of soreness and overall recuperative abilities, and I’m consuming 20g of CHO or so a day. And to say it again, I think a Westside training template works great with the AD. Good luck!
[quote]dnissenbaum wrote:
okay guys, I’m on week three. This week so far my training has felt like crap unlike my 1st two weeks.
I did legs yesterday and it felt like crap, i was about 3/4 reps off my pace. I’m going to bump up my calories tomorow and see if that helps in the gym. My goal was to drop weight while maintaing performance- I’m also considering going to a westside barbell type of routine. Any words from the wise?[/quote]
Westside is ideal for the AD. Time it so your max effort days are a day after the end of your carb load and you will really like it. I’ve done Westside style with the AD quite a bit- 3-4 years and had great results. Right now I’ve changed things up a bit- Joints take a beating- but I think you will do real well with Westside/AD.
Barry
[quote]vasudeva wrote:
Concerning energy systems work… I’ve been pulling the sled for 50 meters (down slight grade) and 50 meters (up slight grade) = 1 rep. I’ve been performing 8-10 reps with around 300 for cardiovascular work every day this week. I’ve been amazed at my lack of soreness and overall recuperative abilities, and I’m consuming 20g of CHO or so a day. And to say it again, I think a Westside training template works great with the AD. Good luck![/quote]
Damn that’s alot o’ pullin’! Around here they have alot of draft horses people keep mostly for fun and to keep a connection to the old days. They get together and have ‘Horse Pulls’ where a team of draft horses competes to see how far/fast they can pull a given weight. You should start a ‘Man Pull’ event. My money’s on you Bro! Yea I like Westside too. About 18 years ago me and my dad were trapping and he had this spot way far away from anything. We get there and he pulls out a sled. You know a kids sled like kids ride in the winter. He’s got this harness rigged up and he starts buckling me in. Meanwhile he loads up all the traps and shovels and picks and he takes off across the frozen snow. I had to pull that rig for miles. Man you talk about sore hip flexors!
Barry
Hey all,
So tomorrow is my 2nd carb up. This one won’t be so clean as I’m going away. I switched from Carbolin 19 to HOT-ROX and I’m holding steady at 207 now. Looking to drop cals again next week. Lifting/running didn’t happen last week but I did some tough BJJ training sessions so that’s good. Never did ‘crash’ Hope I’m fat adapted…I must be or all the sausage I’m eating would’ve made me a whale by now.
Haven’t tried mid weeks spikes or any mods yet…
Good story, Barry. My dad never had me drag much more than my ass to church, or outside to cut the grass, or some other onerous chore.
I only drag on a daily basis for short lengths of time; maybe two weeks. I am interested to watch how my body adapts while on the AD.
Normally, I drag heavy on ME lower day, and light maybe twice more during the week for active recovery.
Really, since my days in the military, I don’t much care for energy systems work. However, I appreciate how humping a ruck really developed my work capacity; my lower body is a machine.
The sled work usually helps to keep unwanted BF away, and aids in restoration.
