I’m sorry if this is a stupid question…but is the point of the AD to go into ketosis? Will it not work if you are not in ketosis? Can too much protein take you out of ketosis?
Thanks!
[quote]sarah1 wrote:
I’m sorry if this is a stupid question…but is the point of the AD to go into ketosis? Will it not work if you are not in ketosis? Can too much protein take you out of ketosis?
Thanks!
[/quote]
Yes to all the questions. But you would have to eat a ton of protein to get knocked outa ketosis. Probably well over 2g/lb of bodyweight.
[quote]Bizmark wrote:
sarah1 wrote:
I’m sorry if this is a stupid question…but is the point of the AD to go into ketosis? Will it not work if you are not in ketosis? Can too much protein take you out of ketosis?
Thanks!
Yes to all the questions. But you would have to eat a ton of protein to get knocked outa ketosis. Probably well over 2g/lb of bodyweight.[/quote]
I hate to interject here but the point of the AD is not to go into to ketosis as it is simply a transition phase during the first 3 days of carbohydrate deprivation. Once you have moved through the state of ketosis your body will begin to utilize dietary fats and body stores for energy with the exception of certain activities.
These include anaerobic training (including sprints) and brain function for example. The reason why there is a prolonged break in period is to shift your body through ketosis not float in and out of ketosis.
As to your question as to whether it would work if you weren’t in ketosis, yes, as mentioned the aim is not ketosis so don’t worry about that state.
As to your protein question. If you restrict your diet to only protein for a prolonged period of time would you see your body begin to source energy through the breakdown of protein. As long as you are supplying yourself with some form of dietary fats those will be the primary source of energy.
There seems to be quite a lot of confusion as to the true nature of the AD and its application. While individualisation is key to this lifestyle there are a lot of people who are following variations that can hardly be called Anabolic Diets. Worse yet, they are confusing a lot of the new folks trying to develop an understanding of how this diet works.
Follow the book to the letter for at least 2 months and then you can start to look at modifying the approach based on your progress.
Best,
Sasha
Wow Sasha-
Thanks for the detailed response. I’m trying to follow the diet to a T, but I’m still just trying to grasp exactly how it works…the theory. Can you explain at all more? And what is the purpose of the carb ups and why do they come every 5 days? It seems to me if you’re trying to train your body not to use carbs you shouldn’t eat them ever. Is it just for the mental break?
Also, do you think you can really “retrain” your body’s systems? I always thought that your body by default burt carbs first, then fat, then protein if there was no fat. If your body is used to getting only protein does it get “good” at burning protein and then when fats are introduced does it still ignore them? That seems odd, but the diet seems to claim the case when you give your body fats for a long time…and also, if your body really is retrained how long does it last?
Have you tried the AD? Do you think it is a good long term approach for lean gains in muscle mass?
Also, what are the problems with eating a very high protein diet? What’s wrong with using protein as energy as long as you have enough extra to spare?
Thanks!
[quote]SashaG wrote:
Bizmark wrote:
sarah1 wrote:
I’m sorry if this is a stupid question…but is the point of the AD to go into ketosis? Will it not work if you are not in ketosis? Can too much protein take you out of ketosis?
Thanks!
Yes to all the questions. But you would have to eat a ton of protein to get knocked outa ketosis. Probably well over 2g/lb of bodyweight.
I hate to interject here but the point of the AD is not to go into to ketosis as it is simply a transition phase during the first 3 days of carbohydrate deprivation. Once you have moved through the state of ketosis your body will begin to utilize dietary fats and body stores for energy with the exception of certain activities.
These include anaerobic training (including sprints) and brain function for example. The reason why there is a prolonged break in period is to shift your body through ketosis not float in and out of ketosis.
As to your question as to whether it would work if you weren’t in ketosis, yes, as mentioned the aim is not ketosis so don’t worry about that state.
As to your protein question. If you restrict your diet to only protein for a prolonged period of time would you see your body begin to source energy through the breakdown of protein. As long as you are supplying yourself with some form of dietary fats those will be the primary source of energy.
There seems to be quite a lot of confusion as to the true nature of the AD and its application. While individualisation is key to this lifestyle there are a lot of people who are following variations that can hardly be called Anabolic Diets. Worse yet, they are confusing a lot of the new folks trying to develop an understanding of how this diet works.
Follow the book to the letter for at least 2 months and then you can start to look at modifying the approach based on your progress.
Best,
Sasha
[/quote]
From a beginners standpoint, wouldn’t getting into ketosis be an initial aim?
But I can see how checking regularly like I do isn’t necessary, I just do it to see when my body is giving off the most ketones, which seems to be right after I workout, judging from the ketostix I took the last few days.
In response to what I had stated earlier, I was just going off of some stuff at c-k-d.com that Lyle Mcdonald had found. And it just said that ketosis was the aim for a ckd etc… Thats also where I found the citric acid thing.
But after reading your post it finally sunk in. I don’t really see how the body could use anything else but fats or proteins in the absence of carbohydrates. Because its not getting anything else. So it technically doesn’t matter about the citric acid, unless it can be used as energy somehow.
Anyway, thanks for clearing that up sasha. And also for telling me that I was wrong in the nicest possible way :-).
Hi guys, I started reading this thread yesterday and I also started the AD again yesterday (did it shortly before)
I’ve read the original book twice now but nowhere in the book does it state that you have to do an initial 12 day high pro/high fat phase, so a 12 day weekday phase so to speak.
The sample starter menu’s in the book also just do 5 high fat/high pro immediately followed by a carb loading weekend, again no mentioning of the 12 day weekday phase.
I read in the beginning of this thread that disc hoss and others said this 12 day phase is what you should start with, but where does this come from ?
Thx guys 
[quote]Jeroen wrote:
Hi guys, I started reading this thread yesterday and I also started the AD again yesterday (did it shortly before)
I’ve read the original book twice now but nowhere in the book does it state that you have to do an initial 12 day high pro/high fat phase, so a 12 day weekday phase so to speak.
The sample starter menu’s in the book also just do 5 high fat/high pro immediately followed by a carb loading weekend, again no mentioning of the 12 day weekday phase.
I read in the beginning of this thread that disc hoss and others said this 12 day phase is what you should start with, but where does this come from ?
Thx guys :)[/quote]
It says it in the Anabolic Solution; which is the book that replaced the AD. PM me your e-mail address and Ill send it to u.
[quote]Jeroen wrote:
Hi guys, I started reading this thread yesterday and I also started the AD again yesterday (did it shortly before)
I’ve read the original book twice now but nowhere in the book does it state that you have to do an initial 12 day high pro/high fat phase, so a 12 day weekday phase so to speak.
The sample starter menu’s in the book also just do 5 high fat/high pro immediately followed by a carb loading weekend, again no mentioning of the 12 day weekday phase.
I read in the beginning of this thread that disc hoss and others said this 12 day phase is what you should start with, but where does this come from ?
Thx guys :)[/quote]
The original AD manual did not include a 12 day induction phase - you are correct. It came in a later revision and it is more effective at forcing your body to use fat for energy quicker and less painfully. I was toying around with CKD before the original book was printed and - even before there were terms for it - and I never did a 12 day induction. But I do think this is the way to go for those coming from higher carb diets.
Sarah, Biz, anyone else who cares…
I agree with sasha, that views like mine are confusing to newcomers - that being said…
The AD is a low carb diet - period. I was privy to the scuttlebutt going around in the early nineties:
The carb load phase of the diet was introduced to induce as much muscle fullness on bodybuilders as possible - without anabolic steroids! Period. This was the original intention of the carb ups - to take Vince McMahon’s WFB duders and get them show ready with no drugs. Dr D’s personal mix was much less carb load centered.
Yes, the carb load does increase insulin and all the effects of which (read through this thread, they’ve all been discussed).
Yes, carb loading for less than 48 hrs (24 in some of us) will not take us out of the fat burning mode.
The fact of the matter is, humans do not need any form of glycogen. Your body will make as much as it needs from fat and protein to fuel your brain and intense events (see sasha’s posts).
Culturally, we eat plenty of carbs - pasta for Italians like me, chocolates for Valentine’s day and Easter. Cookies on X-mas, etc, etc, etc… You do not need them! If you need a mental break to regain your past life of sugar and sweets, then go ahead and carb up on the weekends. The further down the road you get, the better you will feel without ever carb loading. You will perform better, you will feel better, and you will be in better health. I know that Biz, and maybe Tirib are going through this mental see-saw as of late.
It is the low carb portion of the diet that is the crucial. If you never have an insulin surge, you will grow just as large and as strong, and perform just as well over time.
The bottom line is, you do not NEED any form of DIETARY glycogen. Short carb loads will not knock you out fat fueling mode. Dr. D would agree with me.
If you have any doubts in what I claim, experiment for yourself. If you can objectively get past cultural and psychological factors, you will see.
Here’s another link on insulin: Ron Rosedale, M.D. - Insulin and Its Metabolic Effects
Good luck, friends.
-SK
[quote]sifuinkorea wrote:
The carb load phase of the diet was introduced to induce as much muscle fullness on bodybuilders as possible - without anabolic steroids! Period. This was the original intention of the carb ups - to take Vince McMahon’s WFB duders and get them show ready with no drugs. Dr D’s personal mix was much less carb load centered.
Yes, the carb load does increase insulin and all the effects of which (read through this thread, they’ve all been discussed).
Yes, carb loading for less than 48 hrs (24 in some of us) will not take us out of the fat burning mode.
The fact of the matter is, humans do not need any form of glycogen. Your body will make as much as it needs from fat and protein to fuel your brain and intense events (see sasha’s posts).
Culturally, we eat plenty of carbs - pasta for Italians like me, chocolates for Valentine’s day and Easter. Cookies on X-mas, etc, etc, etc… You do not need them! If you need a mental break to regain your past life of sugar and sweets, then go ahead and carb up on the weekends. The further down the road you get, the better you will feel without ever carb loading. You will perform better, you will feel better, and you will be in better health. I know that Biz, and maybe Tirib are going through this mental see-saw as of late.
It is the low carb portion of the diet that is the crucial. If you never have an insulin surge, you will grow just as large and as strong, and perform just as well over time.
The bottom line is, you do not NEED any form of DIETARY glycogen. Short carb loads will not knock you out fat fueling mode. Dr. D would agree with me.
If you have any doubts in what I claim, experiment for yourself. If you can objectively get past cultural and psychological factors, you will see.
Here’s another link on insulin: Ron Rosedale, M.D. - Insulin and Its Metabolic Effects
Good luck, friends.
-SK[/quote]
Yikes. Completely disagree on performance and growth factors.
It’s true that humans do not need any form of carbohydrate whatsoever. However, the purpose of the carb-load on the AD is to provide muscles with the very best fuel for high intensity activity.
I’m not going to claim that it’s the very act of insulin pumping carbs in to the muscle as the reason for growth. I will tell you that glycogen is a better fuel for high intensity performance simply because it’s oxidized at a far more rapid rate than fat, ketones, or aminos. It’s a direct shot of sugar. What does that mean? Sustainable, powerful bursts of energy.
Let’s not forget the powerful recovery effect this has on the body by saving it the trauma of going in to hyper oxidative mode to provide fuel for the body and brain ON TOP OF repairing muscles and restoring neurotransmitter and CNS balances.
The faster you can recover, the sooner you can hit the weights at your body (and mind’s) utmost ability.
The horse is dead… and let’s stop beating it. Carbs aren’t necessary. Very true. However, if you’re looking to recover and grow faster, you should carb-load. Again, I’m not claiming any esoteric action of insulin in building muscle other than to provide the body with the fuel it evolutionarily prefers for high intensity activity. Not coincidentally, obliging the body leads to better gains.
As far as the original purpose of the AD, of course it was to make the wrestlers look their best. The use of “muscular fullness” is completely misleading though. To suggest that people only look bigger as an illusion from glycogen concentration is half of the story. How about because they’re big and strong, too?
The purpose of the AD is to induce muscle growth over the shortest period of time without the use of steroids via the maximization of endogenous hormones. It’s true that low-carb diets increase GH, testosterone… that’s all fine and dandy. But if your body is in a constant catabolic state and is constantly fighting just to reassume its equilibrium… well, you ain’t gonna grow very fast.
This is the importance of muscle glycogen. It serves as your primary energy substrate so that the rest of your calories can go to the rapid restoration of muscular, neural, and CNS equilibriums. The body’s ability to remain as anabolic, or maybe best put, less catabolic, as possible is therefore very advantageous to growth.
And then there’s the G-Flux factor. Faster recovery through preferential use of particular energy substrates leads to more rapid performances increases… and these occur over shorter periods of time.
Faster performance increases over shorter periods of time… sounds like steroids. To a lesser degree, it sounds like the Anabolic Diet, the non-steroid user’s steroid.
Agreed, the horse is dead.
And agreed, glycogen and the corresponding insulin are energy “turbo-chargers”. I am saying this: over time your body will function supremely sans the glycogen - even at intense levels. Of course glycotic energy will always be of higher output than non - relatively, but your non-glycotic energy level can par with your past glycotic level. It’s relative, look “further to the right of the chart”.
Recovery? Questionable, again this from personal experience with none of the fancy scientific studies that seem so bible-like to some of us.
So you and I will agree to disagree.
I need to echo the thoughts of Ovalpine as I have always been a strong proponent of carb ups and the NECESSITY of carbohydrates on a lifestyle like that of the AD. As I have mentioned many a time, there are certain functions in which your body requires glycogen to function. Now how you fuel that function is your business however seeing as we’re here to improve our body composition, muscle mass maintenance and growth is a priority.
So rather than breakdown those vital proteins for energy in the absence of carbohydrates, why not take advantage of your body’s advanced state of carbohydrate sensitivity and replenish your glycogen stores, reset leptin levels and raise your body’s basal metabolic rate.
While I appreciate the great feeling of being dry and lean, this fear of carbohydrates is unfounded and has become a hinderance not only for people following the AD, but this site as a whole. There’s a reason why bodybuilders use insulin. It’s because it’s one of the most powerful muscle-building substances in our body’s. Be wise in its use and you will be ok.
Sorry for the rant.
Best,
Sasha
Maybe these have been posted before… but here they are again…
Power Talk part 1
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=460954
Power Talk part 2
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=460959
This is a 2 part interview with Dipasquale. It’s in the second part that he shares his view on ketosis. Which is pretty much what sasha has been telling us.
[quote]sifuinkorea wrote:
Agreed, the horse is dead.
And agreed, glycogen and the corresponding insulin are energy “turbo-chargers”. I am saying this: over time your body will function supremely sans the glycogen - even at intense levels. Of course glycotic energy will always be of higher output than non - relatively, but your non-glycotic energy level can par with your past glycotic level. It’s relative, look “further to the right of the chart”.
Recovery? Questionable, again this from personal experience with none of the fancy scientific studies that seem so bible-like to some of us.
So you and I will agree to disagree.
[/quote]
I agree that the body has an incredible ability to adapt. Truly amazing, really.
I would like to add that I also base the majority of what I say on personal experiences, I just plug in the scientific mumbo-jumbo as corollaries to intuitions and sentiments. In this case, recovery truly is an interesting topic.
I engage in high intensity physical activity on the average of 4x/week. I also sit at 6% bf. In other words, I don’t have a ton of endogenous fuel for my body. There is a fine line that I walk toward the end of the week between exercising hard and not feeling sick afterwards.
So I do agree… we must all gauge ourselves individually, but also take note of each other’s experiences. These respectful differences (I make it sound like we’re an old married couple) we have are ultimately for the betterment of each other and everyone.
[quote]Bizmark wrote:
Maybe these have been posted before… but here they are again…
Power Talk part 1
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=460954
Power Talk part 2
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=460959
This is a 2 part interview with Dipasquale. It’s in the second part that he shares his view on ketosis. Which is pretty much what sasha has been telling us.[/quote]
Biz again coming through in the clutch. You are the Michael Jordan of finding relevant websites and PDFs.
By the way ovalpline, how’s your Chilean experience treating you?
Here’s my question though…if you’re filling up glycogen in the carb up so as to have it to use as fuel isn’t that going against the whole point of forcing your body to use fat as fuel? I’m not trying to beat a dead horse or anything…I’m just trying to come to understand this diet.
Another question then that would go along with it is why 5 days? What is magical about 5 days? Are you supposed to deplete glycogen in the first 3 or something? How would this approach differ from CW’s flip diet where you carb up every 4th day?
And then I also wanted to know…do you have to wait and stick with the diet for a few months before you notice good recovery? I definitely notice I am much more sore when I don’t use Surge. I’m also gaining fat and I’m only eating 1800 cals a day…I’m trying to stick this out but it certainly does not seem to be working at the moment…
Thanks!
I’m sorry…one more question. About the carb ups…it seems that you are supposed to be able to ignore calories as well…just eat a LOT. This seems to me a recipe for fat gain. Does the standard rule of calories in vs calories out somehow break down? And if so why?
Should one be eating below maintence durning the week and then having more on the weekend so that the total weekly calories balances out? Or should you just eat slightly above maint. every day and only change the RATIOS on the carb up, not the total cals?
Thanks again for this thread. I’m slowly getting through it all. I apologize if my question is a repeat…
Relevant facts:
I’ve been on the AD since Nov 1st.
Most recently carbed up on Sunday the 21st of Jan.
Lifted 3 days during that next week, basketball 1 day and 45 minutes cardio another day.
Ok so then on Saturday the 27th of Jan. My lower back went out and I was in a lot of pain and didn’t carb up on Sunday as I normally would have. I was in bed and didn’t eat very much all week but did eat high fat/prot.
Finally feeling better and last night went out to eat with my family that I haven’t seen in quite some time. I was going to stay away from carbs but had a couple glasses of wine and ended up eating a high carb dessert and I picked at other peoples high carb dinners.
Now I should be in a depleted state seeing as how I had a great week of workouts followed by a week in bed with no carb up, but now I’ve sort of started a carb up last night but it was high GI carbs on top of alot of fat/prot. Should I continue this and carb up the right way today?
Any help would be greatly appreciated and I really apologize if this post is dense and rambling.
[quote]sifuinkorea wrote:
By the way ovalpline, how’s your Chilean experience treating you?[/quote]
Man, it feels like I’m in Superman’s Bizarro World. All the guys have mullets and pompadours, 80’s music is king, and the women are very exotic. Obviously, I stick out like a sore thumb. I receive a mix of stares, some of interest, others of disdain… but always stares.
My Spanish is rapidly improving, but language is still effectively a barrier. I can’t seem to ever find what I’m looking for, understand what’s on restaurant menus, etc. I can only imagine that your experience in Korea (at least initially) was similar?
For now, I’m living with a Chilean family and will be through February 17th. They are good people, but it’s just not my preference because I’m privy to their ways, cooking, etc.
My exercise consists of pushups, dips between chairs, pull-ups underneath the stairs, sprints, and jogging. It’s a little more than deficient.
Chileans eat bread with everything and only VERY small portions of meat. Obviously a problem for me. I’m probably getting at most .8 grams of protein/lb/day and there have definitely been a couple where I managed only .5 grams of protein/lb. Avocados have become a food staple of mine. I have never found such incredible and cheap produce before.
Apart from training and nutritional deficiencies, the experience here is simply out of this world. I’m lost… completely. There are times when it’s incredibly mentally taxing and other times when I’m able to just roll with it. They are awesome experiences nonetheless.
My Intensive Language Program ends on February 17th, affording me time to travel. As of now the options are Buenos Aires, Argentina and Torres Del Payne (the south of Chile in Patagonia). I’m leaning towards Torres Del Payne because this would definitely be the best time of year climate-wise. A couple others in the program and I are discussing a 7 day backpacking trip.
Ultimately, I am just happy that I’m here… away from the normal routine and challenged by the very simplest of tasks.
As a final note, the wine here is unbelievable and CHEAP. A couple others and I will be picking up some bottles for tonight’s Super Bowl, which we do, in fact, get! On that note: sorry, Peyton Manning, but I’ve lost too much money on you in the past. Bears by 7.
What is your experience in Korea like?!
[quote]sarah1 wrote:
Here’s my question though…if you’re filling up glycogen in the carb up so as to have it to use as fuel isn’t that going against the whole point of forcing your body to use fat as fuel? I’m not trying to beat a dead horse or anything…I’m just trying to come to understand this diet.
Another question then that would go along with it is why 5 days? What is magical about 5 days? Are you supposed to deplete glycogen in the first 3 or something? How would this approach differ from CW’s flip diet where you carb up every 4th day?
And then I also wanted to know…do you have to wait and stick with the diet for a few months before you notice good recovery? I definitely notice I am much more sore when I don’t use Surge. I’m also gaining fat and I’m only eating 1800 cals a day…I’m trying to stick this out but it certainly does not seem to be working at the moment…
Thanks![/quote]
Ay, Sarah. You’re killing me. The thing is, I know where you’re coming from… I really do… you just must practice more patience.
First and foremost, you need to get your goals together. You want to get bigger and stronger. You also want to not experience fat gain. In fact, you want to lose fat. I want to earn $10,000/week on a $10/hour wage. You and I are both disillusioned.
In order to gain mass, and I’ve noticed you emphasize LEAN mass (all muscle is lean) you must be in a hypocaloric state (more calories in than out… yes, there are a few exceptions but they generally are either too esoteric and rare, or involve rookie weight lifter gains). This is just a fact.
Hypocaloric states stimulate protein synthesis, and protein synthesis stimulates muscle gain. Hypocaloric states also stimulate fat gain. They go necessarily hand-in-hand.
This bit of information is going to upset you, but you’re going to have to deal with it. You better be happy with gaining 70% muscle and 30% fat on a hypocaloric diet (remember, the only way you’ll be able to gain mass… yes, LEAN mass), 'cause it’s the best you’ll do (took these #s from CT, CW, and Berardi… verify for yourself). Most likely, the proportions won’t be as favorable.
All high-level athletes, including physique athletes, periodize their training and diet based on linear plans of ONE of the following: weight gain, fat loss, and maintenance. With that in mind, these plans are often based on seasonal changes (Winter = weight gain, Summer = fat loss).
Please take careful note that I wrote “weight gain” and “fat loss”, instead of “muscle gain” and “weight loss”. We understand that one can’t gain simply muscle… and weight loss that involves more than a smidgen of muscle loss is unacceptable. These are the realities.
As far as the glycogen repleneshing and fat adaptation, you need to reread what Sifu, Sasha, and I wrote. 1-2 day carb-ups don’t affect fat adaptation provided one is following the AD protocal of 5 day low carb, 2 day carb-up.
Glycogen is for high intensity exercise, and the body will use it judiciously. It will otherwise prefer fat, as it is now adapted to fat.
The magic of 5 days low-carb is that it primes your body for glycogen SUPERcompensation. Meaning that your body will be able to hold more glycogen that it normally would → higher intensity exercise thresholds and the other G-Flux stuff we’ve discussed recently (which you should re-read).
I’ve never done CW’s flip-diet, but I can tell you what I believe the differences are: the AD allows you to better maximize natural hormonal production through longer periods of low-carb dieting (5 instead of 3), and the glycogen supercompensation from the 2 day carb-up after the 5 day low-carb enables all this.
You’re sore in the absence of Surge because you’re not fully adapted to the diet… you’ve only been on it for days, really. Remember, we’re talking about adaptation taking a LONG-time, something we tried to emphasize before you started.
As far as fat gain and whatnot on 1800 calories. I really don’t even want to touch the subject until you’re more adapted. Again, we’re talking about long-term adaptations being necessary and you’re looking for a quick fix.
If you have in fact caused any fat gain, my best guess is it’s an effect of your own stress. Make sure you are getting fish-oil. Additionally, I think you are extremely over-dieted and your thyroid has dropped off. Just focus on getting adapted to the diet and eat when you are hungry, following AD principles of carb-loads and low-carb days and I believe your thyroid will naturally pick up.
Finally, relax. You make me stressed out. Buy the friggin’ book!