My Experience On the Anabolic Diet

[quote]AlphaDragon wrote:
industrialplaid wrote:
Does anyone have thoughts about how effective creatine supplementation will be on this diet? I’ve started adding 5g daily into my workout shake (a scoop of whey with a little heavy cream). I’m concerned that all the literature I’ve encountered has suggested that sugars are an important part of making sure that creatine is actually stored in the muscle bellies. Without significant carbs on a daily basis, will the creatine still be used, or will I be pissing away my money (both literally and figuratively)?

Would it be possible to take in enough creatine during the weekend carb up to use throughout the week (like we do with glycogen)?

As has been said a few times on this monstrous thread, while we will probably get enough “creating” through our carnivorous feasts, it has been linked to better protein absorption (post workout). So it’s a good thing to take creatine.

Personally, I’d take creatine for about 6-8 weeks (every day) and then take a week break from it.[/quote]

What I’m asking is not whether or not supplementing creatine is a good idea. I’m asking whether or not supplementing creatine in the absence of simple carbs is at all effective.

If it is, or isn’t, I’m also curious to know why.

[quote]industrialplaid wrote:
AlphaDragon wrote:
industrialplaid wrote:
Does anyone have thoughts about how effective creatine supplementation will be on this diet? I’ve started adding 5g daily into my workout shake (a scoop of whey with a little heavy cream). I’m concerned that all the literature I’ve encountered has suggested that sugars are an important part of making sure that creatine is actually stored in the muscle bellies. Without significant carbs on a daily basis, will the creatine still be used, or will I be pissing away my money (both literally and figuratively)?

Would it be possible to take in enough creatine during the weekend carb up to use throughout the week (like we do with glycogen)?

As has been said a few times on this monstrous thread, while we will probably get enough “creating” through our carnivorous feasts, it has been linked to better protein absorption (post workout). So it’s a good thing to take creatine.

Personally, I’d take creatine for about 6-8 weeks (every day) and then take a week break from it.

What I’m asking is not whether or not supplementing creatine is a good idea. I’m asking whether or not supplementing creatine in the absence of simple carbs is at all effective.

If it is, or isn’t, I’m also curious to know why.[/quote]

yes creatine absorption will still take place mius simple carbs (CHO). To paraphrase:

You don’t NEED CHO to make creatine “work” in your muscles. It helps, a lot, in the same sense that a giant insulin spike helps anything be rushed into either muscle or fat.

So for now just take it with breakfast and pre-bed meal. It will be absorbed just like any other amino acid. Your body has been absorbing amino acids without sugar for years. also, creatine absorption is better among individuals that eat more meat products on a regular basis. So in fact it may be better on AD than on other higher CHO programs.

-chris

[quote]AlphaDragon wrote:
As has been said a few times on this monstrous thread, while we will probably get enough “creating” through our carnivorous feasts, it has been linked to better protein absorption (post workout). So it’s a good thing to take creatine.

Personally, I’d take creatine for about 6-8 weeks (every day) and then take a week break from it.[/quote]

Creatine is cheap and safe enough to use just for the psychological effect if that’s all there was, but I believe in it. There’s just too much supportive data. Studies don’t always impress me, but when you have dozens and dozens showing at least some effect with no drawbacks in healthy individuals and it costs peanuts by supp standards, whwy the hell not?

I get a few grams here and there post work out during the week and 3 grams 3 times a day on load days. It probably is a good idea to take a break now and again like Alphadragon says, though Dave Barr has a fairly convincing theory as well here:

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=768093

has anyone on AD had problems with plateauing? i’m female, began AD mid-Nov and have been hovering around 20% bodyfat for about 3 weeks now. what can i do?

[quote]dissipate wrote:
has anyone on AD had problems with plateauing? i’m female, began AD mid-Nov and have been hovering around 20% bodyfat for about 3 weeks now. what can i do?[/quote]

Well, you haven’t been ‘on’ for that long -really…it’s only been 6 weeks or so since you came out of the induction phase, right?

Did you begin the AD at a calorie deficit (trying to cut)?

How severely are you cutting cals now?

What do your carb-ups look like?

There’s a lot of variables to consider, but let us know where you are and we’ll try to help.

peace

[quote]dissipate wrote:
has anyone on AD had problems with plateauing? i’m female, began AD mid-Nov and have been hovering around 20% bodyfat for about 3 weeks now. what can i do?[/quote]

Assuming you’ve been keeping your carbs low enough and fat high enough on non load days you are just now approaching the point where you can accurately judge what effect different strategies are going to have on you.

[quote]dissipate wrote:
has anyone on AD had problems with plateauing? i’m female, began AD mid-Nov and have been hovering around 20% bodyfat for about 3 weeks now. what can i do?[/quote]

What does your diet (and caloric intake) and stats look like?

[quote]dissipate wrote:
has anyone on AD had problems with plateauing? i’m female, began AD mid-Nov and have been hovering around 20% bodyfat for about 3 weeks now. what can i do?[/quote]

By plateauing I’m assuming you are using body fat as your marker of progress. Built into this is the assumption that you are using some tool to measure it, likely a home based convenience-based one at that. If it’s a BF% scale like titania then you are basically just getting a random number. If it’s calipers then you might not be getting much better.

The basic idea is that the measurement tool is likely highl inaccurate to say DEXA. So I would use the mirror as your guide instead. Also take pictures and compare each month.

Body fat is a tricky deal because a crusade to lean out almost always stall after a while. I find this is the key reason to lose fat in small intense spurts of about a month maybe 3 weeks. Then give yourself about another month to maintain and go at it again. Human body’s hate change.

rapid change such as major fat loss or even progressing fat loss is seen as an “oh shit” sign to your body and it fight to maintain body weight. Maintaining homeostasis is what your body is best at because it is what helps you survive trauma.

So gove your system a chance to stay stable for a bit before you rip off more layers of fat. Make sure to CHO up good during you maintaining time to really tell your body that it is ok to burn fat because we have food.

Also as a female you may have a hard time getting past 18%. try getting a DEXA to see where you are really at. But if you can keep your body from triggering its “oh shit” contingency mechanisms then you should be ok to get to a true 18%. I’ve also never seen a woman at 18% that looked anything other than lean/sexy/etc.

Look to more than one attribute to analyze progress/plateau/etc.

-chris

[quote]raviraj wrote:
thehorse65 wrote:
hello, im new to the thread but have been on this diet for a while. i have a problem. im 6ft 204 lbs and samoan so i have a hard time getting rid of some body fat…im eating a ton of fat but it feels as if im getting fat for some reason…the only way for me to get rid of my fat is starving myself!! i have been competing in jiu jitsu tornaments for a couple years so im pretty active. can anyone help me?

pls write here all u eat everyday and what workout u follow so the experts can really help u .[/quote]

wake up 4:30am

gym/track 5:00am
(depending on how cold it is) for cardio for 30 min on empty stomatch
120 push ups
50 pull ups

6am ish meal 1
3 eggs whole, 1 hamburger patty with cheese, 1 med. sausage down 2 caps olive oil

7:00am work

10:30 school, lunch around 12 ish 15 min break, i bring
1 or 2 steaks(t bone or rib eye) or chicken(with skin) with some veg(only green) with two fish oil caps

3:00pm work out…i follow a modified westside routine

5ish meal 3
steak or 2 hamburger patties with cheese, more eggs 3, and some olive oil…

7:00 wrestling/submission wrestling practice

10:00pm meal. 2 steaks(yeah i eat a lot of steak) sometimes with chicken on the side, some green veg, cheese(always about 3oz), some olive oil…

bed. then repeat. i always dring water or crystal light. i train hard because i DONT HAVE AN OFF SEASON… im trying to loose some but cant get ride of some fat for my tornament.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Cthulhu wrote:
So,how is everyone with eating spinach?
I’ve always ate spinach (about two pounds a week) since the whole spinach scare and E coli link, I’ve started back on organic spinach,although there wasn’t any E Coli found on organic spinach.

The organic spinach I bought has seven grams of fiber,no carbs,and two grams of protein, which is great because I can add quite a bit of spinach to my daily produce intake and still feel good about it. This diet is great,but I found that when I don’t eat enough greens on my low carb days I start feeling like shit,so spinach has really come in handy.

I eat a lot of spinach. There’s a small market by us that sells it really fresh for a buck a bag. They also have big bunches of broccoli for a buck which I also partake of freely. Raw garlic is also one of my daily habits as is celery.[/quote]

Yeah,this organic spinach I bought is quite palatable-especially with beef or chicken.

[quote]AlphaDragon wrote:
industrialplaid wrote:
Does anyone have thoughts about how effective creatine supplementation will be on this diet? I’ve started adding 5g daily into my workout shake (a scoop of whey with a little heavy cream). I’m concerned that all the literature I’ve encountered has suggested that sugars are an important part of making sure that creatine is actually stored in the muscle bellies. Without significant carbs on a daily basis, will the creatine still be used, or will I be pissing away my money (both literally and figuratively)?

Would it be possible to take in enough creatine during the weekend carb up to use throughout the week (like we do with glycogen)?

As has been said a few times on this monstrous thread, while we will probably get enough “creating” through our carnivorous feasts, it has been linked to better protein absorption (post workout). So it’s a good thing to take creatine.

Personally, I’d take creatine for about 6-8 weeks (every day) and then take a week break from it.[/quote]

Correct.
If you’re eating enough beef, you’re getting enough creatine.

[quote]Pauli D wrote:
Did you begin the AD at a calorie deficit (trying to cut)?
[/quote]
the 12-day induction was done at maintenance levels. after that, i tried to cut at about 200 cals below maintenance.

i’m ashamed to say i’m unsure… sorry, i understand this makes it difficult to determine whether i’m cutting too severely or whether my cal intake is above maintenance even. after waking up at 5.45am to go to the gym and returning home at 7pm, am just too exhausted to measure and calculate anything!

1.64m
58.5kg
suprailiac measurement with accu-measure callipers says about 20% bodyfat.

5.45am black tea or coffee with splenda

8am if starving, half-palm-sized portion of chicken breast, lean pork or whatever leftover meat there is

1pm palm-sized portion of lean meat and a handful of sunflower seeds and almonds

7pm two palm-sized portions of lean meat and one to two handfuls of sunflower seeds and almonds. some salad without dressing or some leafy green veg. also, 3 fish oil caps.

the big gaps in-between meals are of no worry to me because i’m also doing intermittent fasting whenever i can.

during the last carb-up (10.15am-9pm same day) i had:
2 slices bread
half bowl rice
half medium bag no-fat pretzels
palm-sized portion of durian
2 peaches
1 slice pineapple
1 banana
1 slice brioche
1 chipolata
some grilled mushrooms
palm-sized portion scrambled eggs
1 strip bacon with fatty bits removed
2 green bean biscuits
1.5 palm-sized portion boiled chicken
0.5 palm-sized potion curry fish
about 1 cup watercress
1 small bowl fried salmon skin
about 10 pieces sushi (seared tuna, tempura, soft shell crab, tobikko)

hmm alright. yeah my body seems to go into panic mode at 20% - i’ve always had big problems at this stage, even when i did measure and calculate food intake, and i’d really appreciate any advice on smashing this plateau.

thanks everyone!

[quote]realpeanutbutter wrote:
You don’t NEED CHO to make creatine “work” in your muscles. It helps, a lot, in the same sense that a giant insulin spike helps anything be rushed into either muscle or fat.

So for now just take it with breakfast and pre-bed meal. It will be absorbed just like any other amino acid. Your body has been absorbing amino acids without sugar for years. also, creatine absorption is better among individuals that eat more meat products on a regular basis. So in fact it may be better on AD than on other higher CHO programs.

-chris[/quote]

Thanks for the responses guys. I’d be really curious to see a study that measured creatine’s effect in groups who were taking it with simple sugars, and groups (like us) whose diets included lots and lots of red meat.

I’m going to try taking 5g a day in a shake, and we’ll see what happens.

[quote]dissipate wrote:

<<< the big gaps in-between meals are of no worry to me because i’m also doing intermittent fasting whenever i can. >>>

[/quote]

May not be THE answer, but this actually is a worry. Your metabolism will not be nearly as efficient with these long gaps. I would also bet a shiny new penny (hold on to your hat) that you’re not eating enough (especially fat) to utilize adipose fat stores for energy sufficiently and your body is thus clinging to them to protect against starvation. Counterintuitive I know, but you may be surprised.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
dissipate wrote:

<<< the big gaps in-between meals are of no worry to me because i’m also doing intermittent fasting whenever i can. >>>

May not be THE answer, but this actually is a worry. Your metabolism will not be nearly as efficient with these long gaps. I would also bet a shiny new penny (hold on to your hat) that you’re not eating enough (especially fat) to utilize adipose fat stores for energy sufficiently and your body is thus clinging to them to protect against starvation. Counterintuitive I know, but you may be surprised.[/quote]

…imagine my surprise when I didn’t start leaning out until I ate more -more than I had ever eaten before…

Truth…

peace

[quote]Pauli D wrote:
…imagine my surprise when I didn’t start leaning out until I ate more -more than I had ever eaten before…

Truth…

peace[/quote]

I kid you not!!! Goes against every instinct there is doesn’t it. LOL

[quote]Cthulhu wrote:
Yeah,this organic spinach I bought is quite palatable-especially with beef or chicken. [/quote]

I love spinach, but there’s not really a place here to get organic. I just eat it right out of the bag.

yo i need a diet i dont know a lot about nutrition so if you have your log like every food you ate things like that it would be good. i am tryin to put on lean muscle mass. If anyone could help me out let me know. thanks bros

[quote]dissipate wrote:
Pauli D wrote:
Did you begin the AD at a calorie deficit (trying to cut)?

the 12-day induction was done at maintenance levels. after that, i tried to cut at about 200 cals below maintenance.

How severely are you cutting cals now?
i’m ashamed to say i’m unsure… sorry, i understand this makes it difficult to determine whether i’m cutting too severely or whether my cal intake is above maintenance even. after waking up at 5.45am to go to the gym and returning home at 7pm, am just too exhausted to measure and calculate anything!

What does your diet (and caloric intake) and stats look like?
1.64m
58.5kg
suprailiac measurement with accu-measure callipers says about 20% bodyfat.

5.45am black tea or coffee with splenda

8am if starving, half-palm-sized portion of chicken breast, lean pork or whatever leftover meat there is

1pm palm-sized portion of lean meat and a handful of sunflower seeds and almonds

7pm two palm-sized portions of lean meat and one to two handfuls of sunflower seeds and almonds. some salad without dressing or some leafy green veg. also, 3 fish oil caps.

the big gaps in-between meals are of no worry to me because i’m also doing intermittent fasting whenever i can.

What do your carb-ups look like?

during the last carb-up (10.15am-9pm same day) i had:
2 slices bread
half bowl rice
half medium bag no-fat pretzels
palm-sized portion of durian
2 peaches
1 slice pineapple
1 banana
1 slice brioche
1 chipolata
some grilled mushrooms
palm-sized portion scrambled eggs
1 strip bacon with fatty bits removed
2 green bean biscuits
1.5 palm-sized portion boiled chicken
0.5 palm-sized potion curry fish
about 1 cup watercress
1 small bowl fried salmon skin
about 10 pieces sushi (seared tuna, tempura, soft shell crab, tobikko)

Also as a female you may have a hard time getting past 18%. try getting a DEXA to see where you are really at. But if you can keep your body from triggering its “oh shit” contingency mechanisms then you should be ok to get to a true 18%.
hmm alright. yeah my body seems to go into panic mode at 20% - i’ve always had big problems at this stage, even when i did measure and calculate food intake, and i’d really appreciate any advice on smashing this plateau.

thanks everyone![/quote]

You are not eating enough. My sister did this same thing and now her metabolism is deadly slow. To lean out well you have to get your metabolism way up past 3000cal/day and then take 200 cal off per weekuntil youn get to 10x BW (roughly). Your metabolism was likely never high unless you have ever put an effort into eating 3000+ cals of clean food per day. Get your metabolism up without gaining fat and then try leaning again.

Also, you are eating next to no fat. I didn’t think i wa eating to little fat until i started eating a lot of cheese. this really helps. Cheese is great because it also offers vitamins etc. You need to fat transition and eat super frequently. starvation will make you look skinny and not lean. Your body will harbor more fat if it feels you are starving.

First learn good habits like eating every 2 hours max eating every 1:45 would be better for you. even if it’s only a prtein shake or a couple eggs. You have to get your metabolism up before you will ever lean out to the point where you want. Also what are your muscle gains like?

If you don’t have a decent base of active muscle first then you will have a hard time leaning out as easily. Muscle seems to “eat” fat very well.

right now lets say your metabolism is at about 1700 cals (and im likely being generous, depending on how long you have been “cutting” for). you eat only about 1650 cals per day. thats only 5 cals of fat/muscle loss. Your metabolism will meet your food intake over time. therefore if you ramp cals up to 300 per day (over time) and then cut 200 per week it won’t ever quite catch up until you’re done cutting and you ramp it back up without regaining. This way you aregetting 200 cals burned plus w/e for training.

How long have you been trying to lose weight?

-chris

[quote]thehorse65 wrote:
raviraj wrote:
thehorse65 wrote:
hello, im new to the thread but have been on this diet for a while. i have a problem. im 6ft 204 lbs and samoan so i have a hard time getting rid of some body fat…im eating a ton of fat but it feels as if im getting fat for some reason…the only way for me to get rid of my fat is starving myself!! i have been competing in jiu jitsu tornaments for a couple years so im pretty active. can anyone help me?

pls write here all u eat everyday and what workout u follow so the experts can really help u .

wake up 4:30am

gym/track 5:00am
(depending on how cold it is) for cardio for 30 min on empty stomatch
120 push ups
50 pull ups

6am ish meal 1
3 eggs whole, 1 hamburger patty with cheese, 1 med. sausage down 2 caps olive oil

7:00am work

10:30 school, lunch around 12 ish 15 min break, i bring
1 or 2 steaks(t bone or rib eye) or chicken(with skin) with some veg(only green) with two fish oil caps

3:00pm work out…i follow a modified westside routine

5ish meal 3
steak or 2 hamburger patties with cheese, more eggs 3, and some olive oil…

7:00 wrestling/submission wrestling practice

10:00pm meal. 2 steaks(yeah i eat a lot of steak) sometimes with chicken on the side, some green veg, cheese(always about 3oz), some olive oil…

bed. then repeat. i always dring water or crystal light. i train hard because i DONT HAVE AN OFF SEASON… im trying to loose some but cant get ride of some fat for my tornament.

[/quote]

divide those meals up to eat more frequently over the day.

tally up calories, then begin reducing by 150 per week for 4 weeks then maintain for 2 or so and then go back up.

Make that 30 mins cardio into tabata training.

Are you CHOing up?

Maybe you can modify your west side into something more fatloss oriented like meltdown or german body comp. W/S and BJJ do not mix well recovery wise.

-chris