My Experience On the Anabolic Diet

Nutrition
3982

[quote]SashaG wrote:
josh.shafer wrote:
I think I read in and interview somewhere that the average person’s muscles can hold 400 g’s of glycogen and the liver can hold 50. If this is true, it really now makes sense to me, the idea that those who are cutting should only load for one day.
450 g’s x 4 kcals/g=1800 kcals from carbs on a carb up day MAX for someone who is cutting.

Therefore, to keep optimum macros in place for a CHO load day, the max calories I should take in are 3600. Right? I’ve read the whole thread, but I don’t remember this ever coming up. I’m trying to stay ahead of the game with only a couple days to go until my load. Thanks in advance.

Josh,

The average person (male) can hold upwards of 900 calories of carbohydrates within their system spread across the liver (approx. 33%), muscle stores (50%) and blood glucose (17%). Now this is someone who is following a mixed diet rich in both carbohydrates, fats and proteins.

Now when you are following a ketogenic type diet like the AD or a prolonged carb depletion type diet like some others on this thread your carbohydrate stores become depleted within 3-4 days. This is when activities like weight training and some brain function are fueled via glucogenisis (I.e. the break down of protein for glucose). Because glucogenisis is an in-efficient system to derive energy in enough quantities to help us grow, we re-introduce carbohydrates after a set number of days.

As an additional note, this is why it is essential to keep your protein levels very high when moving from carbohydrate burning to fat burning. During the transition phase your body will look to protein stores to fuel activities until it becomes used to using free fatty acids to perform non-intense functions.

Hope that helps but shoot back with any questions.

Cheers,

Sasha
[/quote]
Sasha,
Thanks for the reply. I forgot about glucose in the blood. Do you really mean 900 cals or 900 carbs? And also, would you recommend continuing to eat at bw x 18 for a while after my first carb-up or going straight to a cut or mass phase? Thanks for your help.
Josh

3983

[quote]josh.shafer wrote:
SashaG wrote:
josh.shafer wrote:

Sasha

Sasha,
Thanks for the reply. I forgot about glucose in the blood. Do you really mean 900 cals or 900 carbs? And also, would you recommend continuing to eat at bw x 18 for a while after my first carb-up or going straight to a cut or mass phase? Thanks for your help.
Josh

[/quote]

Josh,

I actually mean 900 calories worth of carbohydrates so that’s approximately 225 grams. As mentioned, this is an average male not necessarily a trained one. The greater your level of lean muscle mass, the greater the level of stored carbohydrates one has in the the body. Now this changes when we shift our metabolism into a fat burning state.

I would recommend sticking with the 18x BW for the first couple of carb ups to gauge how your body is responding. Keeping your protein levels high in the two week induction is most important for muscle sparing and upped fat intake will help to signal to your body to shift to sourcing FFAs through diet and stores as energy.

As has been mentioned a lot in this thread it is very important to monitor and adjust your approach based on how your body reacts. Just stick with the recommended program for the first 4-6 weeks.

Hope that helps mate and good luck.

Cheers,

Sasha

3984

Sasha,
Thanks for the info. I really don’t have any problem eating at the level I am right now. This is great. If I find out that I can recomp at this intake, I’ll be happy, because I really hate “dieting”. It seems to me so far, that this diet will allow you to eat a lot more calories than usual. Is that your experience?

3985

So I gorged at Christmas (hangs head in shame…=P)

I forgot, believe it or not, that X-mas was monday and I did my normal Sat-Sun CHO load…then extended it approx 16 hours.

I felt like total crap…no energy, massive headache, and just overall like “blah.”

I get home and eat a P/F meal and within 10 minutes I’m back to feeling at least 75% of normal.

Good thing this should only happen 1-2x/year, IMHO.

Gee, and I’m getting my measurements done on Fri or Mon…it should be…interesting to say the least. :wink:

AD

3986

Sasha…

So my question would be: What is the downside of using protein-turned-glycogen for the fueling of intense activities as opposed to glycogen from carbs?

And you mentioned muscle breakdown on the days where I didn’t eat enough protein. How much daily protein intake is required to thwart this breakdown?

You have a lot of theoretical knowledge, not withstanding any empirical knowledge of your experience, on this subject. Where did you study?

-SK

3987

its hard being smart in a givin area…then your prone to everyone elses ignorance…so bear me with me now :)…at ~15%BF 165 lbs, wanting to cut obviously, how many carbs yall think i should have. with the way ive been doing it (unmonitered mostly clean carbups for a day) ive maintained.

3988

[quote]sifuinkorea wrote:
Sasha…

So my question would be: What is the downside of using protein-turned-glycogen for the fueling of intense activities as opposed to glycogen from carbs?

And you mentioned muscle breakdown on the days where I didn’t eat enough protein. How much daily protein intake is required to thwart this breakdown?

You have a lot of theoretical knowledge, not withstanding any empirical knowledge of your experience, on this subject. Where did you study?

-SK[/quote]

SK,

There’s absolutely no problem with using glycogen derived from protein however it is just an in-efficient and cost prohibitive approach. In terms of the amount of dietary protein required for glucogenisis this depends on so many factors that it is difficult to approximate. What we do know is that approximately 58% of protein ingested will appear as glucose in the blood stream so we can assume this conversion. Given that you’ve adapted to a ketogenic diet your daily requirements will be lower than one who is still on a mixed diet (this is due to your body’s shift to becoming much more glycogen and protein sparing).

While the majority of your glycogen requirements will be satisfied by the breakdown of FFAs and ketone production, you still require some form of glycogen for your brain, high intensity activities and a few other areas of the body.

Now we know that glycogen stores are fully depleted after approximately 3 days of fasting (non-carbohydrate intake) so we must assume that beyond that period we are deriving any glycogen needs from protein (either dietary or from the body). The brain requires approximately 40 grams of glucose (ketones fuel the other 160 grams) so to satisfy just the brain’s requirements we would need approximately 70 grams of protein (70 x 0.58 = 40.6). Now, if we look at the requirements of the muscle stores in the average untrained man we see that they hold approximately 500 calories (125 grams) of glucose in their muscles. To satisfy this requirement we need approximately 215 grams of protein. This will come down the better your adaptation to the ketogenic diet. Already we are up to close to 300 grams. Now we want to grow on top of all those requirements . . . this is where we run into problems.

Also, we are also neglecting the use of one of the most anabolic substances in the body for muscle growth, insulin. I will dig deeper into this one a little later.

I am not trying to knock your approach and if it works for you, go for it. And as for my qualifications, aside from working with a supplement company in Canada (it rhymes with Bufflecheck) I just read and apply my learnings.

Hope that helps a bit and I look forward to a good chat regarding all this.

Cheers,

Sasha

3989

[quote]SashaG wrote:
sifuinkorea wrote:
Sasha…

So my question would be: What is the downside of using protein-turned-glycogen for the fueling of intense activities as opposed to glycogen from carbs?

And you mentioned muscle breakdown on the days where I didn’t eat enough protein. How much daily protein intake is required to thwart this breakdown?

You have a lot of theoretical knowledge, not withstanding any empirical knowledge of your experience, on this subject. Where did you study?

-SK

SK,

There’s absolutely no problem with using glycogen derived from protein however it is just an in-efficient and cost prohibitive approach. In terms of the amount of dietary protein required for glucogenisis this depends on so many factors that it is difficult to approximate. What we do know is that approximately 58% of protein ingested will appear as glucose in the blood stream so we can assume this conversion. Given that you’ve adapted to a ketogenic diet your daily requirements will be lower than one who is still on a mixed diet (this is due to your body’s shift to becoming much more glycogen and protein sparing).

While the majority of your glycogen requirements will be satisfied by the breakdown of FFAs and ketone production, you still require some form of glycogen for your brain, high intensity activities and a few other areas of the body.

Now we know that glycogen stores are fully depleted after approximately 3 days of fasting (non-carbohydrate intake) so we must assume that beyond that period we are deriving any glycogen needs from protein (either dietary or from the body). The brain requires approximately 40 grams of glucose (ketones fuel the other 160 grams) so to satisfy just the brain’s requirements we would need approximately 70 grams of protein (70 x 0.58 = 40.6). Now, if we look at the requirements of the muscle stores in the average untrained man we see that they hold approximately 500 calories (125 grams) of glucose in their muscles. To satisfy this requirement we need approximately 215 grams of protein. This will come down the better your adaptation to the ketogenic diet. Already we are up to close to 300 grams. Now we want to grow on top of all those requirements . . . this is where we run into problems.

Also, we are also neglecting the use of one of the most anabolic substances in the body for muscle growth, insulin. I will dig deeper into this one a little later.

I am not trying to knock your approach and if it works for you, go for it. And as for my qualifications, aside from working with a supplement company in Canada (it rhymes with Bufflecheck) I just read and apply my learnings.

Hope that helps a bit and I look forward to a good chat regarding all this.

Cheers,

Sasha
[/quote]

Sasha,

I assumed you weren’t knocking anything… and I too, am just looking to learn.

An inefficient system - using glycogen derived from protein. Is this because it costs energy to transform protein into glycogen? What’s the source of this energy? Fat? Problem solved. (Conjecture on my part).

300g of protein of fuel glycogen run systems - so on top of any protein I need for whatever else, I need at least 300g just for brain function and intense events. This just can’t be. Even if the number was lower - 200g let’s say.

I don’t think that I ever eat as much as 200g of protein in a day. Some days - sure, but not most. And most of my almost daily exercise comes in the form of high intensity. I’m not educated enough in the formulas to begin to work numbers, but how could this add up? I would have to getting visibly smaller by the day and losing preformance daily as well, no?

As I have said, as long as my fat intake is relatively high I can eat much fewer calories, and by default less protein, and still feel more muscular fullness and perform at a higher level. Is there some other energy system involved that takes up this theoretical slack?

One more thing, and I am not attempting to discredit what you are saying as much as I am trying to match the theory to the real world - my goal is not to gain muscle size, in fact I would rather be stronger and faster at a lighter bodyweight. I read somewhere that super intense exercise causes releases in hormones condusive to muscular growth/strength increases. Could this mimic the affect of glucose-induced hormone release?

Il cazzo and I seem to have similiar findings, maybe he could chime in with his 2 cents.

Sorry for the questions, but I’m enjoying the path.

-SK

3990

[quote]sifuinkorea wrote:
SashaG wrote:
sifuinkorea wrote:
Sasha,

I assumed you weren’t knocking anything… and I too, am just looking to learn.

An inefficient system - using glycogen derived from protein. Is this because it costs energy to transform protein into glycogen? What’s the source of this energy? Fat? Problem solved. (Conjecture on my part).
[/quote]

What I mean by in-efficient is that it takes a high level of protein to mimic what we could get from a 1 to 1 ratio with carbohydrates PWO or through a load. From a practical, real-world stand point you would need a lot protein just to sustain a function that could easily be satisfied from carbohydrates (again in a load or PWO). I am not advocating gorging on carbs daily, I am simply recommending meeting these requirements through some form of glycogen.

I am not saying that we need 200-300 grams of carbohydrates daily but for the average guy (I think it’s a 150 lb/20% BF guy) he stores approximately 300 grams of carbs in his muscles. Now, as we are weight training throughout the week without replenishing those stores we are depleting those stores.

Now, even when if we’re fully fat adapted we’re still completely depleted after 3-4 days. As to your experience, I am imagining that your metabolism has slowed to manage this wastage. Your body isn’t actively looking to atrophy so it will respond to not getting carbohydrates over the long term by slowing your metabolism. Your exercise will be the only active taxation on protein via glucogenisis as it cannot be fueled by FFAs.

Muscular fullness is a subjective thing but as far as I’m aware, glycogen within the muscle stores isn’t the only contributor to fullness.

Mate, I do not feel like you are trying to discredit me and nor am I with you. I just know that there are a lot of people who follow this thread and are looking to it for answers. It is easy to sway ones opinion in this area with points of view and I am simply advocating mine.

As for Il Cazzo and others that have followed the velocity diet, from my understanding this is a very controlled diet that is restricted to a 28 day period. It is a fasted state type diet that is excellent when used in isolation and not perpetually. Same goes for the Get Shredded Diet.

We are advocating a lifestyle with the AD, not a diet. Anyone following a standard ketogenic diet with restricted carbohydrate intake for a prolonged period will run into the same issues that others have with the Atkins diet. Even with in-frequent carb loads, we are not maximizing the benefits from our bodies in my opinion.

In terms of mimicking insulin, growth hormone secretion from intense exercise cannot do that however what we have seen is that on ketogenic diets, GH release is increased which helps us grow and release fat into FFAs.

I have to run but I’ll jump on later to continue :wink:

Cheers.

Sasha

3991

[quote]josh.shafer wrote:
I think I read in and interview somewhere that the average person’s muscles can hold 400 g’s of glycogen and the liver can hold 50. If this is true, it really now makes sense to me, the idea that those who are cutting should only load for one day.
450 g’s x 4 kcals/g=1800 kcals from carbs on a carb up day MAX for someone who is cutting.

Therefore, to keep optimum macros in place for a CHO load day, the max calories I should take in are 3600. Right? I’ve read the whole thread, but I don’t remember this ever coming up. I’m trying to stay ahead of the game with only a couple days to go until my load. Thanks in advance.[/quote]

Well, I think that you should try and see, but your numbers look good to start, and also remember a few things about those numbers.

  1. They probably come in normal conditions, when you haven’t eaten carbs for a while and are generally delpleted like on the AD you can have supercompensation, where you can store more carbs than normal…maybe 100 g or more depending how big you are.

  2. Some carbs will be burnt throughtout the day, so I think you shouldn’t be too anyalitical and calculate how many carbs you can store in muscles thoughtout the day.

  3. nonetheless I think you’re calcuations provide a good starting point, go from there and see how fat loss and lifts are going.

3992

[quote]SashaG wrote:
sifuinkorea wrote:
SashaG wrote:
sifuinkorea wrote:
Sasha,

I assumed you weren’t knocking anything… and I too, am just looking to learn.

An inefficient system - using glycogen derived from protein. Is this because it costs energy to transform protein into glycogen? What’s the source of this energy? Fat? Problem solved. (Conjecture on my part).

What I mean by in-efficient is that it takes a high level of protein to mimic what we could get from a 1 to 1 ratio with carbohydrates PWO or through a load. From a practical, real-world stand point you would need a lot protein just to sustain a function that could easily be satisfied from carbohydrates (again in a load or PWO). I am not advocating gorging on carbs daily, I am simply recommending meeting these requirements through some form of glycogen.

300g of protein of fuel glycogen run systems - so on top of any protein I need for whatever else, I need at least 300g just for brain function and intense events. This just can’t be. Even if the number was lower - 200g let’s say.

I don’t think that I ever eat as much as 200g of protein in a day. Some days - sure, but not most. And most of my almost daily exercise comes in the form of high intensity. I’m not educated enough in the formulas to begin to work numbers, but how could this add up? I would have to getting visibly smaller by the day and losing preformance daily as well, no?

I am not saying that we need 200-300 grams of carbohydrates daily but for the average guy (I think it’s a 150 lb/20% BF guy) he stores approximately 300 grams of carbs in his muscles. Now, as we are weight training throughout the week without replenishing those stores we are depleting those stores.

Now, even when if we’re fully fat adapted we’re still completely depleted after 3-4 days. As to your experience, I am imagining that your metabolism has slowed to manage this wastage. Your body isn’t actively looking to atrophy so it will respond to not getting carbohydrates over the long term by slowing your metabolism. Your exercise will be the only active taxation on protein via glucogenisis as it cannot be fueled by FFAs.

As I have said, as long as my fat intake is relatively high I can eat much fewer calories, and by default less protein, and still feel more muscular fullness and perform at a higher level. Is there some other energy system involved that takes up this theoretical slack?

Muscular fullness is a subjective thing but as far as I’m aware, glycogen within the muscle stores isn’t the only contributor to fullness.

One more thing, and I am not attempting to discredit what you are saying as much as I am trying to match the theory to the real world - my goal is not to gain muscle size, in fact I would rather be stronger and faster at a lighter bodyweight. I read somewhere that super intense exercise causes releases in hormones condusive to muscular growth/strength increases. Could this mimic the affect of glucose-induced hormone release?

Il cazzo and I seem to have similiar findings, maybe he could chime in with his 2 cents.

Sorry for the questions, but I’m enjoying the path.

-SK

Mate, I do not feel like you are trying to discredit me and nor am I with you. I just know that there are a lot of people who follow this thread and are looking to it for answers. It is easy to sway ones opinion in this area with points of view and I am simply advocating mine.

As for Il Cazzo and others that have followed the velocity diet, from my understanding this is a very controlled diet that is restricted to a 28 day period. It is a fasted state type diet that is excellent when used in isolation and not perpetually. Same goes for the Get Shredded Diet.

We are advocating a lifestyle with the AD, not a diet. Anyone following a standard ketogenic diet with restricted carbohydrate intake for a prolonged period will run into the same issues that others have with the Atkins diet. Even with in-frequent carb loads, we are not maximizing the benefits from our bodies in my opinion.

In terms of mimicking insulin, growth hormone secretion from intense exercise cannot do that however what we have seen is that on ketogenic diets, GH release is increased which helps us grow and release fat into FFAs.

I have to run but I’ll jump on later to continue :wink:

Cheers.

Sasha
[/quote]
I, for one, am benefitting greatly from this discussion. Thanks fellas.
Josh

3993

[quote]YoungGunner wrote:
josh.shafer wrote:
I think I read in and interview somewhere that the average person’s muscles can hold 400 g’s of glycogen and the liver can hold 50. If this is true, it really now makes sense to me, the idea that those who are cutting should only load for one day.
450 g’s x 4 kcals/g=1800 kcals from carbs on a carb up day MAX for someone who is cutting.

Therefore, to keep optimum macros in place for a CHO load day, the max calories I should take in are 3600. Right? I’ve read the whole thread, but I don’t remember this ever coming up. I’m trying to stay ahead of the game with only a couple days to go until my load. Thanks in advance.

Well, I think that you should try and see, but your numbers look good to start, and also remember a few things about those numbers.

  1. They probably come in normal conditions, when you haven’t eaten carbs for a while and are generally delpleted like on the AD you can have supercompensation, where you can store more carbs than normal…maybe 100 g or more depending how big you are.

  2. Some carbs will be burnt throughtout the day, so I think you shouldn’t be too anyalitical and calculate how many carbs you can store in muscles thoughtout the day.

  3. nonetheless I think you’re calcuations provide a good starting point, go from there and see how fat loss and lifts are going.
    [/quote]
    Thanks for the feedback, Gunner. I think I’m really needing this carb-up. I’m on week 3 of New Rules of Lifting Fat Loss II and the workouts are very taxing with short rests. After lifting, it is a struggle to carry out the rest of my day. I think weekly carb-ups are going to be my savior, since it’s been well over 2 weeks since I had one.
    Josh

3994

[quote]SashaG wrote:
sifuinkorea wrote:
SashaG wrote:
sifuinkorea wrote:
Sasha,

I assumed you weren’t knocking anything… and I too, am just looking to learn.

An inefficient system - using glycogen derived from protein. Is this because it costs energy to transform protein into glycogen? What’s the source of this energy? Fat? Problem solved. (Conjecture on my part).

What I mean by in-efficient is that it takes a high level of protein to mimic what we could get from a 1 to 1 ratio with carbohydrates PWO or through a load. From a practical, real-world stand point you would need a lot protein just to sustain a function that could easily be satisfied from carbohydrates (again in a load or PWO). I am not advocating gorging on carbs daily, I am simply recommending meeting these requirements through some form of glycogen.

300g of protein of fuel glycogen run systems - so on top of any protein I need for whatever else, I need at least 300g just for brain function and intense events. This just can’t be. Even if the number was lower - 200g let’s say.

I don’t think that I ever eat as much as 200g of protein in a day. Some days - sure, but not most. And most of my almost daily exercise comes in the form of high intensity. I’m not educated enough in the formulas to begin to work numbers, but how could this add up? I would have to getting visibly smaller by the day and losing preformance daily as well, no?

I am not saying that we need 200-300 grams of carbohydrates daily but for the average guy (I think it’s a 150 lb/20% BF guy) he stores approximately 300 grams of carbs in his muscles. Now, as we are weight training throughout the week without replenishing those stores we are depleting those stores.

Now, even when if we’re fully fat adapted we’re still completely depleted after 3-4 days. As to your experience, I am imagining that your metabolism has slowed to manage this wastage. Your body isn’t actively looking to atrophy so it will respond to not getting carbohydrates over the long term by slowing your metabolism. Your exercise will be the only active taxation on protein via glucogenisis as it cannot be fueled by FFAs.

As I have said, as long as my fat intake is relatively high I can eat much fewer calories, and by default less protein, and still feel more muscular fullness and perform at a higher level. Is there some other energy system involved that takes up this theoretical slack?

Muscular fullness is a subjective thing but as far as I’m aware, glycogen within the muscle stores isn’t the only contributor to fullness.

One more thing, and I am not attempting to discredit what you are saying as much as I am trying to match the theory to the real world - my goal is not to gain muscle size, in fact I would rather be stronger and faster at a lighter bodyweight. I read somewhere that super intense exercise causes releases in hormones condusive to muscular growth/strength increases. Could this mimic the affect of glucose-induced hormone release?

Il cazzo and I seem to have similiar findings, maybe he could chime in with his 2 cents.

Sorry for the questions, but I’m enjoying the path.

-SK

Mate, I do not feel like you are trying to discredit me and nor am I with you. I just know that there are a lot of people who follow this thread and are looking to it for answers. It is easy to sway ones opinion in this area with points of view and I am simply advocating mine.

As for Il Cazzo and others that have followed the velocity diet, from my understanding this is a very controlled diet that is restricted to a 28 day period. It is a fasted state type diet that is excellent when used in isolation and not perpetually. Same goes for the Get Shredded Diet.

We are advocating a lifestyle with the AD, not a diet. Anyone following a standard ketogenic diet with restricted carbohydrate intake for a prolonged period will run into the same issues that others have with the Atkins diet. Even with in-frequent carb loads, we are not maximizing the benefits from our bodies in my opinion.

In terms of mimicking insulin, growth hormone secretion from intense exercise cannot do that however what we have seen is that on ketogenic diets, GH release is increased which helps us grow and release fat into FFAs.

I have to run but I’ll jump on later to continue :wink:

Cheers.

Sasha
[/quote]

And I look forward to it…

but, I invited Il cazzo because he is a lifestyle AD duder, or at least he seems so from his posts. His V-diet venture was a leave of sorts from his normal fodder, or an attempt to get back on track - he would know best, however.

And crackers and cheese are on the menu for tonite anyway. I’m just curious about some things you were talking about. You seem to have the scientific theory down, so I ask: what is your personal diet mode? I’ve read some of your psots and it seems like more of a TKD - that is, a diet of low carbs but supplemented with carb feedings after workouts. Let me know.

And how do you reply to a post so you can type yellow in between the original post’s grey???

-SK

3995

[quote]sifuinkorea wrote:
SashaG wrote:
sifuinkorea wrote:
SashaG wrote:
sifuinkorea wrote:

And I look forward to it…

but, I invited Il cazzo because he is a lifestyle AD duder, or at least he seems so from his posts. His V-diet venture was a leave of sorts from his normal fodder, or an attempt to get back on track - he would know best, however.

And crackers and cheese are on the menu for tonite anyway. I’m just curious about some things you were talking about. You seem to have the scientific theory down, so I ask: what is your personal diet mode? I’ve read some of your psots and it seems like more of a TKD - that is, a diet of low carbs but supplemented with carb feedings after workouts. Let me know.

And how do you reply to a post so you can type yellow in between the original post’s grey???

-SK

[/quote]

SK,

So I did start the AD much earlier in the year, I think around May, and did follow it with success for approximately 5 months. Currently, I am following a targeted ketogenic diet where the only source of carbohydrates I get aside from vegetables and the occasional fruit is during and PWO. I train for aesthetics and general health and my training follows a periodization protocol where strength, power and hypertrophy are all targeted. Currently I’m around 210 lbs. at approximately 12-14% BF at 6’0".

During my time on the AD I learned a tremendous amount on how my body reacts to different protocols. Specifically, carb tolerance and fat consumption. While I think the AD is absolutely brilliant for powerlifters and fat loss, the area in which it fell down for me was mass gain via hypertrophy. While modifications like mid week carb feedings was helping, and a trial with Poliquin’s 4:1 eating ratio was good as well, I felt like the misappropriation of insulin release was detrimental to my experience. What I mean by that is that the power anabolic properties of insulin were not being best utilized in the situations where they needed to. Also, I found that managing my thyroid production of T3 and T4 was downregulated as a result of my experience on the AD (which is why I pushed the Iodine test earlier in the thread).

The bottom line is I think the AD is a great approach for people if done correctly. In my opinion, the guise of a leaner, stronger athlete in response to prolonged periods of no carbs was one of limited potential and mistaken appeal. Especially with a trained individual seeking hypertrophy and performance (think sprinters), the need for carbohydrates within a lifestyle such as this is ESSENTIAL. And even those who don’t fall into those two categories, your progress will halt if carbohydrate intake is halted for too long a period of time.

My opinions are very much a balance of experience and literature. If you are succeeding in your approach then continue as you see fit. I would just hesitate to prescribe your approach to others.

Cheers,

Sasha

PS. To get the yellow text between the quoted text you just need to surround the quoted text with [ quote ] and [ / quote ] without the added spaces.

3996

[quote]josh.shafer wrote:
SashaG wrote:
sifuinkorea wrote:
SashaG wrote:
sifuinkorea wrote:

I, for one, am benefitting greatly from this discussion. Thanks fellas.
Josh

[/quote]

Great, Josh. This is the point, even if we are revisiting some older subjects.

Sasha,

How many grams of veges would you say you eat on a given day? You said fruit is occasional - what and how much does that equate to? And how many grams of, I am assuming a high index, carbs do you get during and PWO?

Thanks.

3997

Being still young in this way of eating myself (my fifth month) I’ve been mainly just listening the last little while here. I’ve been pretty reasonably close to by the book, which I’ve read several times, since the beginning and that has been working quite well.

I am in no way averse to experimentation, either with diet or training, but Disc Hoss’s early advice to “just learn the mechanics as prescribed until you develop an intuition on where to go next” (paraphrase) has been good to me and I’ve repeated it endlessly in this thread.

I don’t have a whole lot more to offer at this point, except my own experiences. I’m certainly not going to tell anybody, especially guys with a lot more experience than I have, that they’re not happy with how they’ve been doing things, but DiPasquale is the pioneering master in this narrow field and one would think that he advocates regular cho loads for a well thought out and researched reason.

3998

[quote]sifuinkorea wrote:
josh.shafer wrote:
SashaG wrote:
sifuinkorea wrote:
SashaG wrote:
sifuinkorea wrote:

I, for one, am benefitting greatly from this discussion. Thanks fellas.
Josh

Great, Josh. This is the point, even if we are revisiting some older subjects.

Sasha,

How many grams of veges would you say you eat on a given day? You said fruit is occasional - what and how much does that equate to? And how many grams of, I am assuming a high index, carbs do you get during and PWO?

Thanks.

[/quote]

SK,

Tough to gauge on the veggies and fruit front but on non training days it would probably fall into the 75-100 grams range inclusive of fibre. Fruit only accompanies 2-3 of my 6-7 meals.

During my workout I am sipping on a drink that is 40 grams dextrose and 40 grams protein with 2:1 ratio of protein to carbs PWO (80 grams protein, 40 grams dextrose - CHO). One hour after PWO I will usually take in approximately 40-80 grams (based on the type of workout) of very low GI carbohydrates in the form of oatmeal (this is only because I train first thing in the morning).

I actively supplement with R-ALA, BCAAs and fish oils and on days that I do not train, all my carbohydrates come from fruit and vegetables.

As mentioned, it was the AD that really helped me ro understand how my body reacts to various macronutrients. And while I wouldn’t say that my current diet is completely ketogenic (if at all), it is based on that approach. It is not however the AD which is why I have not been documenting my progress.

Hope that makes sense but I’m very open to helping anyone on or off the AD with their approach to nutrition.

Cheers,

Sasha

3999

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Being still young in this way of eating myself (my fifth month) I’ve been mainly just listening the last little while here. I’ve been pretty reasonably close to by the book, which I’ve read several times, since the beginning and that has been working quite well.

I am in no way averse to experimentation, either with diet or training, but Disc Hoss’s early advice to “just learn the mechanics as prescribed until you develop an intuition on where to go next” (paraphrase) has been good to me and I’ve repeated it endlessly in this thread.

I don’t have a whole lot more to offer at this point, except my own experiences. I’m certainly not going to tell anybody, especially guys with a lot more experience than I have, that they’re not happy with how they’ve been doing things, but DiPasquale is the pioneering master in this narrow field and one would think that he advocates regular cho loads for a well thought out and researched reason.[/quote]

Yes, Trib, and that is the thing about this thread - it is about experiences. There is a foundational approach to the AD; everything else is experience. That brings me to another point…

I owned, read, and implemented the original AD manual way back when. I’m sure the newer versions are much of the same - but what is the difference between the old manuscript and the newer PL/BB versions? Does anyone have them?

I ask because concerning the carb ups, I remember that Doc D was prepping Vince McMahons bodybuilders to compete without the use of drugs. This was because his WWF was under scrutiny and he didn’t want any other negative exposure with his guys on 'roids - away from the point though - Doc D had his breakthrough with his version of a CKD because of this situation, and his original plan called for the carb ups as part of a weekly “practice” towards a show quality physique. They had less to do with performance and more to do with muscular quality (for his audience, at the time) - something I am only mildly concerned with.

Anyway, the diet had been used by himself (Dr D) as well as others, since the early 70’s when he was PL’ing. But low/mod carbs with lots of fat and increased protein was the popular diet of the day for bodybuilders as well - just nothing cyclical about it. I also remember a lot of feedback at the time (mid 90’s) on his diet, and guys were saying that they were gaining and leaning out on more carbs than they thought they were eating due to a lack of nutritional stickers on products and the usual mistakes of a newbie AD’er. They were in effect eating a diet from the 70’s - low carbs (100g or so), mod fat, and mod protein.

I don’t believe this diet had been used in great bulk by performance athletes until relatively recently, but my small question to those who have patiently found their way to the end of this long post is: what is the difference between his earlier and later versions, if any? The catalyst for this long exposition was the last thing that tribulus mentioned in the above post: a well thought out and researched reason for more frequent carb loads, to paraphrase. I wonder how true/false this statement is.

I was just wondering what anyone’s thought were.

-SK

4000

Hello

This is my second time doing the AD.

This time, I’ve been through the 12 day induction period and have done two carb-ups. So far, everything has been going great. However, this week I caught the flu. I haven’t trained all week. I didn’t eat at all on Monday, but the rest of the week I’ve stuck to the diet albeit with lower calories than I usually consume.

Today it occurred to me I’ve been megadosing all week long with Nyquil (the Wal-Mart version). Under the inactive ingredients it lists high fructose corn syrup. So, my question:

Will I have to do the 12-day induction phase again? Will the HFCS turn me back into a carb-burner?

On a related note, since I haven’t trained all week, should I do a carbup this weekend?

Steve

4001

[quote]sawillows wrote:
Hello

This is my second time doing the AD.

This time, I’ve been through the 12 day induction period and have done two carb-ups. So far, everything has been going great. However, this week I caught the flu. I haven’t trained all week. I didn’t eat at all on Monday, but the rest of the week I’ve stuck to the diet albeit with lower calories than I usually consume.

Today it occurred to me I’ve been megadosing all week long with Nyquil (the Wal-Mart version). Under the inactive ingredients it lists high fructose corn syrup. So, my question:

Will I have to do the 12-day induction phase again? Will the HFCS turn me back into a carb-burner?

On a related note, since I haven’t trained all week, should I do a carbup this weekend?

Steve[/quote]

So your ending your 4th week on the AD, Steve?

I’d need more info, but it sounds like you may get by without carbing up this weekend and taking it easy the next. What I would recommend is that you take it easy this weekend by not hitting the carbs too hard, if at all, so you can get over your cold completely allowing you to resume training hard and locking back into the diet.

The double negative of less fat and HFCS during your conversion time does not make a positive. The recommnedation above was a minimum - you should probably start again. But the advice about this weekend still stands - too many carbs will keep that bug around a little longer than needed.

-SK