[quote]IL Cazzo wrote:
To anyone having trouble with fiber…take a tsp of xanthan gum with one of your shakes…do NOT stray too far from the bathroom. Seriously.[/quote]
actually start out with 1/2 tsp. I don’t think normal humans can handle a whole tsp IC. Not everyone is as huge as you 
Alternatively you can pop a few chewable benefiber pills and get a similar but less “dramatic” effect. But if you want to see a long, unbroken human poo… xanthan it is.
-chris
I would not CHO up yet if I were you. No matter how much you think you’ve ‘crashed’ or ‘are depleted’ the 12 day break in has its necessity. Without it you will suffer the transition for longer until you’re adapted. It’s about sending a hard signal to your body about things to come. You have to get it used to burning FFA for ATP.
So, get zened out and stick it for 12 days. Shit if it were about depletion I could be depleted in two days. Shit just run for 1.5 hours to get depleted.
Also what are your stats (rough guess) regarding your goals? Are you reasonable BF% (10-15) trying to bust that last layer? Or are you more of a guy trying to lose a gut? If the later then you will have to look farther back into your Italian heritage to the days before pasta when they ate tapas style with lots of fish and veggies. Your CHO ups will likely end up being either A) shorter B) further spaced C) cleaner or D) all of the above.
Ask some control on your CHO ups will help you strip more fat. Ask IC what happens when your CHO ups turn into fruity pebbles and pasta abortions. Until you become more CHO sensitive, hit the 12 day and then try 6/1 for a bit.
Good training dude.
-chris
[quote]mikecc wrote:
realpeanutbutter wrote:
mikecc wrote:
Whats up guys, nearing the end of the first week. First carb-up is tomorrow night. (Fri Night → Sun Night) I could definately feel myself very sluggish today, I think today was my crash day. I am just very worried that since I crashed today, when I go to carb-up tomorrow, that my body will just go back to being a “carb-burning machine” rather than a “fat-burning machine.” Any feedback?
By first week do you mean you have only been on it for less than a week? did you do the 12 day break in?? you should possibly post pone that first CHO (carb) up until after 12 days low CHO. The 12 days help expedite the adaptation. I did a 12 then a 8 and another 8 day interval before I went to a 5/2.
Depends your goals. Mine worked great for me. now my intervals are more tuned and depend on my goals and training season. How do you like the low carb days other than your crash? food taste good? like animals? eggs? fishes? get your self a good set of recipies that you like for the low CHO days.
BTW what are the goals??
-chris
I was actually hoping I could get by with the 5/2 that the original ebook said! 
I mean my friends said they definately noticed me paler looking and overall more tired throughout the week, so I am definately carb depleted.
Yes, food is good, especially the salmon I just ate for dinner. Just I’m ready to get some of that starch in me (i come from an italian family and id kill for some pasta right now!)
Basically, I read in some posts earlier that it
took some guy like 8 days to crash, instead of the 5, and I figured Dr. D added that 12 day interval period is for the occasional person like that. If I carbup tomorrow my only fear is undoing everything I did for the entire week.
Goals? Lose body fat without losing muscle.
[/quote]
Preface: take this with a grain of salt, and feel free to mentally include “I think” or “maybe it’s because” before each of the following thoughts, as I haven’t taken the time to reference anything :S
I think realpb is right on about the 12 days.
Glycogen depletion is useful once one is fat-adapted, immediately pre-carbup because glycolysis increases the body’s glycogenic capacity immediately thereafter (thus the rationale for PWO carbs).
However, the 12-day transition phase is NOT about carbs. It’s about fat. The AD is about fat. It’s about providing the body with enough fat that it recognizes lipids as an abundant supply of energy, so it substantially increases lipolytic enzymes in the mitochondria, whose job it is to oxidize FFAs in the blood stream, whether these FFAs come from dietary fat or bodily fat (which is probably why Dr D purports caffeine to be such a powerful fat-burner on the AD – caffeine increases plasma FFAs).
The purpose of carb restriction is twofold: first, carbs are a prime energy source, so in their presence, fat oxidation will take a back seat. Secondarily, carbs illicit a large insulin response (relative to fat/pro) amd of one is consuming MASSIVE amounts of fats (in order to become “mitochondrially fat-adapted”), insulin will shuttle those FFAs into adipocytes like they were wearing rocket boots.
So…
the 12 day transition isn’t really about carb depletion, it’s about fat adaption. The carb absence is probably more about insulin than anything.
Which leads me to my next question – do you think a person can be simultaneously carb and fat adapted? Talking in terms of enzymes, why couldn’t one simultaneously have sufficient proper enzymes for efficient metabolism of both substrates? Aren’t “carb crashes” due to sudden seratonin hits from carbs? So if one were to theoretically eat carbs in the morning and PWO (when insulin sensitivity is maximized), eat mostly PRO in the afternoon to transition, and fats in the evening (when the insulin from carbs has cleared) couldn’t one maintain both lipolytic [i]and[/i] glycolytic enzymes? Wouldn’t this make it possible to keep mediocre glycogen stores and good fat metabolism simultaneously?
[quote]realpeanutbutter wrote:
I’d say you’re right. It depends on goals as well. CHO is highly necessary for cell growth but not necessarily respiration. Before agriculture what were our CHO sources? plants, primarily, which ADers get plenty of (I hope).
Since muscle glycogen is in such low concentration (1%) in the muscle mass it is feasible that it can be replaced by other areas like the liver etc. and metabolism of veggies.
The CHO loads are key for growth but not necessarily performance. There are strong guys that don’t get very many CHO in. fatty acid oxidation can compensate for tons of energy.
Not many people concerned with training do much atkins. Most people who are interested in growth don’t typically look at weight loss diets.
Long and short: load when you need to. It could be after each training session or each week or each month, depending on your goals.
-chris
Tiribulus wrote:
Everything I’ve read by those who are in a position to know a hell of a lot more about these things than I do says that anaerobic work is fueled exclusively by glycogen and not having enough of it will result in a dramatically decreased capacity for weight training.
That is THE principle that separates cyclical diets from straight keto diets like Atkins.
Without proper reloads leptin/insulin levels (among many other things) come into play and your body sees itself as starving and begins utilizing aminos regardless of how much fat is there which is why there are no muscular Atkins proponents.
Others can explain in greater and better detail than I can. Look, I’m not telling anybody what to do and I have plenty left to learn, but I’m just relaying what has been said by those who are true authorities in these areas.
[/quote]
A couple of points, IMHO:
Theories are nothing more than ideas about the physical world. The don’t really exist except to explain cause and effect in terms of language so we can all understand. They can be dead wrong and stlll correctly explain a result. Until a result proves a theory wrong… it is correct. Arguing theory (what I read, what I heard…etc) does not change the results, but it does give one a history of understanding allowing you or me today to begin with more knowledge than our forefathers.
How does this apply? As an example, it several takes several months even years to get to point where you are truly a fat burner with all of the effects of such. You would then be able to max a lift - or begin an 8 week program to find your max and compare this result with a previous max you had under a different eating method - not including the possible effects of training alone. So now compare this to a high carb diet, moderate carb diet, low fat/low carb diet and you talking years/a decade of personal research. These threads and supporting literature allow you to start at a later point, taking the results of others as your own.
My now 11 years of this eating pattern is my recorded knowledge of myself, and those whos bodies act as mine does can have similiar results. We develop our theories from our results - reading something to the contrary and holding it as truth in the face of concrete results is worthless.
I think the problem with application of Atkins is in the audience and emphasis: people on Atkins are usually trying to lose weight. The common misheld belief deeply brainwashed among the commoners is that low fat is the way to go. I believe these two ideas combine to set up a failure: they don’t eat enough fat to sustain them!
Ths leads me to the last idea of the day:
Once I tried a cyclical diet based on low carb… one day of high fat followed by one of low to moderate. Always low carb and mod/high protein.
You tend to feel weak at times and performance drops off somewhat but you burn bodyfat like a furnace. If anyone wants to try it, for even a week, I’d like to hear of your results. Once you’ve turned over to a fat burner is the best time to implement this cycle - two weeks is a good goal. Ask if you’d like an example.
My $.02…
SK
[quote]realpeanutbutter wrote:
IL Cazzo wrote:
To anyone having trouble with fiber…take a tsp of xanthan gum with one of your shakes…do NOT stray too far from the bathroom. Seriously.
actually start out with 1/2 tsp. I don’t think normal humans can handle a whole tsp IC. Not everyone is as huge as you
Alternatively you can pop a few chewable benefiber pills and get a similar but less “dramatic” effect. But if you want to see a long, unbroken human poo… xanthan it is.
-chris[/quote]
I almost started with a TBS! But, when blending up the shake, i noticed it was at the thickness i wanted to make a “frozen protein powered pudding type thing.”
Anyway, yea, don’t go crazy with the xanthan…it’s potent!
[quote]dashforce wrote:
Preface: take this with a grain of salt, and feel free to mentally include “I think” or “maybe it’s because” before each of the following thoughts, as I haven’t taken the time to reference anything :S
I think realpb is right on about the 12 days.
Glycogen depletion is useful once one is fat-adapted, immediately pre-carbup because glycolysis increases the body’s glycogenic capacity immediately thereafter (thus the rationale for PWO carbs).
However, the 12-day transition phase is NOT about carbs. It’s about fat. The AD is about fat. It’s about providing the body with enough fat that it recognizes lipids as an abundant supply of energy, so it substantially increases lipolytic enzymes in the mitochondria, whose job it is to oxidize FFAs in the blood stream, whether these FFAs come from dietary fat or bodily fat (which is probably why Dr D purports caffeine to be such a powerful fat-burner on the AD – caffeine increases plasma FFAs).
The purpose of carb restriction is twofold: first, carbs are a prime energy source, so in their presence, fat oxidation will take a back seat. Secondarily, carbs illicit a large insulin response (relative to fat/pro) amd of one is consuming MASSIVE amounts of fats (in order to become “mitochondrially fat-adapted”), insulin will shuttle those FFAs into adipocytes like they were wearing rocket boots.
So…
the 12 day transition isn’t really about carb depletion, it’s about fat adaption. The carb absence is probably more about insulin than anything.
Which leads me to my next question – do you think a person can be simultaneously carb and fat adapted? Talking in terms of enzymes, why couldn’t one simultaneously have sufficient proper enzymes for efficient metabolism of both substrates? Aren’t “carb crashes” due to sudden seratonin hits from carbs? So if one were to theoretically eat carbs in the morning and PWO (when insulin sensitivity is maximized), eat mostly PRO in the afternoon to transition, and fats in the evening (when the insulin from carbs has cleared) couldn’t one maintain both lipolytic [i]and[/i] glycolytic enzymes? Wouldn’t this make it possible to keep mediocre glycogen stores and good fat metabolism simultaneously?[/quote]
well said. very legit.
And the theory at the end is JB’s rational for most people. It’s what PN is all about. PN (precision nutrition) is basically carb cycling too, just smaller cycles that run between training sessions instead of weekends. depending on your tolerance i suppose.
-chris
[quote]IL Cazzo wrote:
realpeanutbutter wrote:
IL Cazzo wrote:
To anyone having trouble with fiber…take a tsp of xanthan gum with one of your shakes…do NOT stray too far from the bathroom. Seriously.
actually start out with 1/2 tsp. I don’t think normal humans can handle a whole tsp IC. Not everyone is as huge as you
Alternatively you can pop a few chewable benefiber pills and get a similar but less “dramatic” effect. But if you want to see a long, unbroken human poo… xanthan it is.
-chris
I almost started with a TBS! But, when blending up the shake, i noticed it was at the thickness i wanted to make a “frozen protein powered pudding type thing.”
Anyway, yea, don’t go crazy with the xanthan…it’s potent!
[/quote]
Yeah I tried the gum in shake routine once and then accidentally left it for a few minutes. It was thick as caulking glue after that. I turned the shaker upside down, didn’t even move.
“How the fuck am i going to eat this?”
then i thought…
“more importantly, what would this have done to my guts? It would be like being pregnant or housing a shit-tzu in my colon.”
I ate it with a spoon, which i stick in and then couldn’t get out easily, in four different servings. Got a little GI “spring-cleaning” in that week.
-chris
[quote]realpeanutbutter wrote:
IL Cazzo wrote:
realpeanutbutter wrote:
IL Cazzo wrote:
To anyone having trouble with fiber…take a tsp of xanthan gum with one of your shakes…do NOT stray too far from the bathroom. Seriously.
actually start out with 1/2 tsp. I don’t think normal humans can handle a whole tsp IC. Not everyone is as huge as you
Alternatively you can pop a few chewable benefiber pills and get a similar but less “dramatic” effect. But if you want to see a long, unbroken human poo… xanthan it is.
-chris
I almost started with a TBS! But, when blending up the shake, i noticed it was at the thickness i wanted to make a “frozen protein powered pudding type thing.”
Anyway, yea, don’t go crazy with the xanthan…it’s potent!
Yeah I tried the gum in shake routine once and then accidentally left it for a few minutes. It was thick as caulking glue after that. I turned the shaker upside down, didn’t even move.
“How the fuck am i going to eat this?”
then i thought…
“more importantly, what would this have done to my guts? It would be like being pregnant or housing a shit-tzu in my colon.”
I ate it with a spoon, which i stick in and then couldn’t get out easily, in four different servings. Got a little GI “spring-cleaning” in that week.
-chris[/quote]
Is the xanthan gum you guy’s use powder form? Is that the only way it comes? Also, do you order it online? I need something to thicken up my shakes.
Thanks
[quote]dunbar wrote:
realpeanutbutter wrote:
IL Cazzo wrote:
realpeanutbutter wrote:
IL Cazzo wrote:
To anyone having trouble with fiber…take a tsp of xanthan gum with one of your shakes…do NOT stray too far from the bathroom. Seriously.
actually start out with 1/2 tsp. I don’t think normal humans can handle a whole tsp IC. Not everyone is as huge as you
Alternatively you can pop a few chewable benefiber pills and get a similar but less “dramatic” effect. But if you want to see a long, unbroken human poo… xanthan it is.
-chris
I almost started with a TBS! But, when blending up the shake, i noticed it was at the thickness i wanted to make a “frozen protein powered pudding type thing.”
Anyway, yea, don’t go crazy with the xanthan…it’s potent!
Yeah I tried the gum in shake routine once and then accidentally left it for a few minutes. It was thick as caulking glue after that. I turned the shaker upside down, didn’t even move.
“How the fuck am i going to eat this?”
then i thought…
“more importantly, what would this have done to my guts? It would be like being pregnant or housing a shit-tzu in my colon.”
I ate it with a spoon, which i stick in and then couldn’t get out easily, in four different servings. Got a little GI “spring-cleaning” in that week.
-chris
Is the xanthan gum you guy’s use powder form? Is that the only way it comes? Also, do you order it online? I need something to thicken up my shakes.
Thanks[/quote]
I don’t know if this is what you’re looking for. some psyllium seed husk will do just fine without the “holy shit” effect of xanthan gum. Xanthan gum is only for those on the verge of needing an enema. there are softer-core things that you should try to thicken shakes before resorting to the digestive version of draino.
To thicken shakes use gelatin powder and keep them in the fridge for a bit.
-chris
ive been on for ~5months now and ive tweeked my carb loads and i no longer desire the shit carbs (except cookies and brownies…but im excellent at resisting)…well anyways im at 15% BF and i weigh 163.6 constantly for the past month and a half now…
i wrestle so i dont wanna gainany weight and id like to bee able to balance inbetween the 159 and 171 weight classes so that i can switch between the two if needed.
ive been really careful in getting 2000 cals every weekday with ~160 fat ~110-130 protein and 22-27 carbs…because of the exhausting practices right after school (still in high school) i have no time to weight train…and im nervous about dropping cals because of my energy thatll ill be needing for practices and meets…PLEASE HELP
[quote]bkmacky9288 wrote:
ive been on for ~5months now and ive tweeked my carb loads and i no longer desire the shit carbs (except cookies and brownies…but im excellent at resisting)…well anyways im at 15% BF and i weigh 163.6 constantly for the past month and a half now…
i wrestle so i dont wanna gainany weight and id like to bee able to balance inbetween the 159 and 171 weight classes so that i can switch between the two if needed.
ive been really careful in getting 2000 cals every weekday with ~160 fat ~110-130 protein and 22-27 carbs…because of the exhausting practices right after school (still in high school) i have no time to weight train…and im nervous about dropping cals because of my energy thatll ill be needing for practices and meets…PLEASE HELP[/quote]
Try cutting out cheeses and up the meats. Also try treating fats like carbs. Like having the healthy ones earlier in the day and then just lean meat and veggies at night.
I’m guessing your trying to cut. Perhaps up your egg intake too.
But if you’ve been on for 5 months I don’t see how you don’t have lower percent bodyfat. Usually this diet cuts you up immediately if your eating lower calories.
Also talk to sifuinkorea, or check the other thread about the fat cycling.
-Biz
How long have you been wrestling? From a fellow wrestler and ADer…
Good work on the consistency over 5 months. Don’t worry about the occasional food orgy if you are ‘in-season’ your body needs those browines and cake while in season.
For your weight class issues think of it this way: Take your weight right after carb load and before. The before weight should be right around 160-161# and the after weight about 3# or more heavier. This way you can easily get into 160. To get into the 170 class do this:
Get some rolls of quarters, 7# worth. Stick them in your jocks and then go weigh in. No reason to weigh any heavier if it isn’t muscle. Might as well just weigh in and fight right after a CHO load of oatmeal. find a comfy weight and stick to it. 165 is a good medium.
MOST IMPORTANTLY…
2000 cals is not enough, especially on low carb weekdays. It is almost fuking impossible to gain fat mass on low carb when you are training almost everyday (if im correct) and are still in HS. slowly ramp up those low carb cals, by about 100 cals each day. Do this while monitoring your wieght and staying consistent on the mat. When you gain a pound maintain the same cals for 3 days. If you keep gaining then go down 100 and stay there. Then after two weeks at that cal level try moving up without gaining fat again.
Your body will adapt to extra cals and creat a better metabolism. This will help you perform hard on the mat and have more energy and recovery ability. You will also likely get way stronger. Try and hit the weights maybe once a week if possible. You will find it helps immeasurably on the mat. opponents are much easier to do shit with if you can force them around.
ramp up those cals. 2000 isn’t anyhting for wrestlers.
-chris
[quote]bkmacky9288 wrote:
ive been on for ~5months now and ive tweeked my carb loads and i no longer desire the shit carbs (except cookies and brownies…but im excellent at resisting)…well anyways im at 15% BF and i weigh 163.6 constantly for the past month and a half now…
i wrestle so i dont wanna gainany weight and id like to bee able to balance inbetween the 159 and 171 weight classes so that i can switch between the two if needed.
ive been really careful in getting 2000 cals every weekday with ~160 fat ~110-130 protein and 22-27 carbs…because of the exhausting practices right after school (still in high school) i have no time to weight train…and im nervous about dropping cals because of my energy thatll ill be needing for practices and meets…PLEASE HELP[/quote]
thanx a lot bro…i have decent strength. i take pride in my coach calling me a horse:] im a senior and its my first year…we’ve only had 4 meets and 3 tournaments ive already lettered and im a starting varsity playa. i think ill go up to 2500 tops annk ill try cycling my calories on the non carb days… on my carb up i just do a (mostly) healthy non-monitered carb up. i know i get at least 600-700 carbs on this day. and yes i do take a day to workout. the only bummer thing is when season started (1 1/2 months ago) i stopped the weights in fear of overtraining so ive been doing all these sprints and body workouts in practice. and so i recently began putting in a session of weights over the weekend and i noticed a loss in intensity and reps of what i use to do…but perhaps its just my calorie intake.
Can anyone help me out with Carbups? I fucking hate these. I’ve been so good for the last month of carbups, eating sweet potatoes, oats with raisins, bananas, brown rice and pasta etc, some cheese, olive oil and fish oil, and some PRO sources where necessary. But i always feel like shit. I train, but feel sleepy, and often actually have to sleep. My thoughts are like ‘wha?’, so slow and shit, contrasted to weekdays of attanetion and alterness, weekends are shit. And i want to go out and have fun, you know? Please give me some next-level insight, if you can. Thanks
Calories are your training limit. More cals = more training, to a point. You are surely limiting intensity and workload with so few cals. You can easily get way past 3000. Your body sets metabolic levels based on activity and whenyou’re a fat burner you won’t have to worry about BF gain.
If you’re a horse on 2000 (this is almost starving dude) you’ll be a mule at 4000. keep it real killer.
-chris
[quote]bkmacky9288 wrote:
thanx a lot bro…i have decent strength. i take pride in my coach calling me a horse:] im a senior and its my first year…we’ve only had 4 meets and 3 tournaments ive already lettered and im a starting varsity playa. i think ill go up to 2500 tops annk ill try cycling my calories on the non carb days… on my carb up i just do a (mostly) healthy non-monitered carb up. i know i get at least 600-700 carbs on this day. and yes i do take a day to workout. the only bummer thing is when season started (1 1/2 months ago) i stopped the weights in fear of overtraining so ive been doing all these sprints and body workouts in practice. and so i recently began putting in a session of weights over the weekend and i noticed a loss in intensity and reps of what i use to do…but perhaps its just my calorie intake.[/quote]
Start by cuttingout that pasta and rice bullshit. Start out easy one yourself. Try an all fruit carb up twice or so. All fruit weekends are much nicer on your pancreas. Then start adding certain things to the fruit base. Add some oat meal, but just oat meal, for two carb ups. If you feel like poopy then X the oats and try potatoes and Swt potatoes. Add things in until you have figured out what makes you feel like a sack of various hooker body parts.
The fruit base should take it easy on you. You will feel light and fresh. But also gassy for the first few. But pull back the apples and oranges, kiwis grape fruits. Try everything at the store. I would bet my pants, if i were wearing any, that it is the rice and pasta and shit like that that makes you feel shitty. That crap makes me feel shitty even by itself without a bunch of other CHO shit helping it fuk me in the ear. White wheat flour has the same insulin response as pure sugar soooo, consume accordingly.
It’s those types of spikes that will make you feel like a prom date after a “roofy colada” on weekends. Also you could carb up on weekdays and use the weekend as low CHO days. shitting your pants at work is always fun. but you won’t have that problem once you simplify your CHO ups and find out what it is that bothers you. I bet it’s that damn pasta.
BTW keep the milk down too. or buy lactse free shit. your body will soon become piss poor at digesting milk sugars because you don’t give it any. and whent at happens the milk makes you go…
brrrap… brrrrrrap… brrrrap… like atrumpet from your asshole.
-chris
[quote]dannyrat wrote:
Can anyone help me out with Carbups? I fucking hate these. I’ve been so good for the last month of carbups, eating sweet potatoes, oats with raisins, bananas, brown rice and pasta etc, some cheese, olive oil and fish oil, and some PRO sources where necessary. But i always feel like shit. I train, but feel sleepy, and often actually have to sleep. My thoughts are like ‘wha?’, so slow and shit, contrasted to weekdays of attanetion and alterness, weekends are shit. And i want to go out and have fun, you know? Please give me some next-level insight, if you can. Thanks[/quote]
Anyone here got any mass gain succuess stories on the AD?
hey guys, AD goin great. anyway, someone told me that cosntant spiking of the insulin levels (carbups) will cause the lichins of something to shutdown and basically become a diabetic…is there any truth to this?
[quote]Brendan Ryan wrote:
Anyone here got any mass gain succuess stories on the AD?[/quote]
mine is semi in the making- started at 176 in early september and am sitting at 210ish right now. i have added an extra 4-8 hour carb up during the week and then on the weekend have a 24-36 hour carb up on the weekend, basically anything goes free for all, and my BF has probably not risen more than one or two percent (started at 12) and I am a FFB.
granted some of these gains were prob on the tail end of my newbie gains, but i got a lot bigger. i’m going to keep this up until I hit 220-230. (i’m 6’2)
[quote]kkeane wrote:
Brendan Ryan wrote:
Anyone here got any mass gain succuess stories on the AD?
mine is semi in the making- started at 176 in early september and am sitting at 210ish right now. i have added an extra 4-8 hour carb up during the week and then on the weekend have a 24-36 hour carb up on the weekend, basically anything goes free for all, and my BF has probably not risen more than one or two percent (started at 12) and I am a FFB.
granted some of these gains were prob on the tail end of my newbie gains, but i got a lot bigger. i’m going to keep this up until I hit 220-230. (i’m 6’2)[/quote]
Nice work man, im about 3 weeks into the AD, and although im improving composition, im having a hard time keeping my weight up. I have missed meals because of work and finals, but that wont be a problem after tomorrow, so im hoping that i will be able to use the AD more to my benefit after that. On a side note, as Brendan knows, my numbers in the gym have been improving with the AD.
–WS4