My Experience On the Anabolic Diet

Nutrition
3122

[quote]wenzi wrote:
I prefer almonds to peanuts when I can get them. It’s always a bitch trying to find any nut without added crap in Hong Kong, and I expect you may have the same problem.

Almonds have more fat, less carbs, and more fibre, I believe, (meaning you can eat more, yeah!) though I don’t shun peanuts by any means - especially near the end of the week and I am craving sodium like a cow in the hot sun.

Sunflower seeds are good too if you can find them. Going to add some to my first carb up meal tomorrow of steel cut oats, some Grape Nuts (my favourite cereal, and a treat), and raisins. Figure it will look just like the shit I fed the birds with.

Now, that’s an idea for some cheap chow - a big bag o’ bird seed.
Be sure to read the packages, though, they love to add sugar or something to just about everything in the East. Oh, and those wasabi peanuts are just killer.
[/quote]

Yeah, I have the same problem with walnuts being coated with caramel and stuff…that’s how they sell them here.

The almonds ALWAYS are OVERSALTED and are freakin’ expensive!!

Peanuts (roasted and shelled) are pretty cheap though…I may just have to adjust for it and eat some of them instead.

Enjoy your carb-up man. :slight_smile:

3123

I was just reading the anabolic soultion having read the AD book before, and it mentions not to take sorbitol.

When eating all this meat and fat you are guaranteed to have breathe like a donkey and all sugar free gum is comprised of this Sorbitol substance,

I cant see my self carrying my toothbrush and toothpaste in my pocket !!!

“a naturally occuring sugar alcohol commonly used in “sugar-free” products. Its caloric content is similar to ordinary sugar, but it is absorbed more slowly, reducing its glycemic index, but often causing gastric discomfort, gas, and diarrhea when consumed in large quantities because intestinal bacteria have ample time to begin breaking it down before it is absorbed.
After being absorbed into the bloodstream, sorbitol is converted into fructose”

What’s a guy supposed to do !!!

3124

[quote]toogoodlookin wrote:
I was just reading the anabolic soultion having read the AD book before, and it mentions not to take sorbitol.

When eating all this meat and fat you are guaranteed to have breathe like a donkey and all sugar free gum is comprised of this Sorbitol substance,

I cant see my self carrying my toothbrush and toothpaste in my pocket !!!

“a naturally occuring sugar alcohol commonly used in “sugar-free” products. Its caloric content is similar to ordinary sugar, but it is absorbed more slowly, reducing its glycemic index, but often causing gastric discomfort, gas, and diarrhea when consumed in large quantities because intestinal bacteria have ample time to begin breaking it down before it is absorbed.
After being absorbed into the bloodstream, sorbitol is converted into fructose”

What’s a guy supposed to do !!!
[/quote]

…try packing some flavored dental floss -or dental tape (Mint, Cinnamon etc…).
They come in really tiny pkg’s anymore -and with all the meat you’re going to be chewing…it’ll come in handy!
:wink:

3125

Was doing a little reading and came across this article about Bodybuilders in the old days using a diet similar to this,

Check it out

3126

Thanks for the reply conor.

Another question- is the transition a bit like flu? Because i’m only 5 days in of eating shitloads of bacon, eggs, mince etc, and i’ve kept on with good veggies etc, now i feel shitty. It’s friday, and i’ve got so many plans for tomorrow, but i feel like death. Sound familiar- snotty nose, fever, lethargy etc?

Thanks guys

3127

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
Thanks for the reply conor.

Another question- is the transition a bit like flu? Because i’m only 5 days in of eating shitloads of bacon, eggs, mince etc, and i’ve kept on with good veggies etc, now i feel shitty. It’s friday, and i’ve got so many plans for tomorrow, but i feel like death. Sound familiar- snotty nose, fever, lethargy etc?

Thanks guys[/quote]

That’s it. Hit me on day 5 too, but not as bad as it sounds like it has you. Most guys seem to be hitting the wall a couple days later. It’ll pass. I woke up the next day and it was over.

–Tiribulus->

3128

Sounds like transition allright. I had that about a week ago too, about five days in yeah.

Today’s my first carb-up. Had me some oatmeal & protein powder, a banana and a small calcium-rich kids dessert for breakfast :slight_smile: later on there will be chicken and rice, and perhaps a pizza before I hit the town for a couple of beers. Strangely, I’m quite enjoying the carbs. First time I did the AD that was quite different…

Maybe this time I know the insulin spike is good for me :slight_smile:

3129

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
Thanks for the reply conor.

Another question- is the transition a bit like flu? Because i’m only 5 days in of eating shitloads of bacon, eggs, mince etc, and i’ve kept on with good veggies etc, now i feel shitty. It’s friday, and i’ve got so many plans for tomorrow, but i feel like death. Sound familiar- snotty nose, fever, lethargy etc?

Thanks guys[/quote]

dannyrat,

Mate . . . this happened to me as well. I felt like I had a sore throat and I felt like I was coming down with the flu. Don’t worry, it passes.

Keep chugging through and you’ll be flying in no time.

Cheers,

Sasha

3130

This is being touched upon a bit and I want to clear this up:

“As far as recovery, again in the book the doc says to fiddle around with your carb timing to see what works best for you. He also says that once adaptation is complete, usually several weeks, some guys can get away with a bit more carbs overall and/or a mid week spike meal.”

  1. This is for those who are NOT well fat adapted. You’re talking a small minority here, guys. If you do well on the AD after 6 strict weeks, ASSUMING sufficient caloric intake and CHO choices to load on, then you don’t need to worry with this.

  2. As little as 10-20g of glucose will be more than enough to work in concert with your whey or EAA’s after (NOT BEFORE) you’re workout. ALL we “need” glucose for is an insulin stimulator to help amplify protein synthesis. We do not need to worry about refilling glycogen stores.

Remember, everybody using Surge and wallowing in CHO is different than you are. You get SUPERcompensation from the load and this can easily be maintained (stores) for 3+ days after load.

In effect you spend 5 days with plenty of glucose availability directly and indirectly. If anything Thurs and Fri will have you relying on more IMT (intramuscular triglyceride) and buring up the fat.

Remember NO CHO before training. That negates lipid oxidation. And IF able to handle it after 2 months on the strict AD, then add small amount (less than 20g) glucose afterward.

  1. IF and only IF, you are very lean (under 8%) then you can bump CHO up, but again, WHY? You will get the insulin kick from far fewer CHO than what is suggested and you’ll even get some stimuation from using whey alone before the workout (30-45mins prior) and then again just after.

I know this is hard to remember and put into context but many of the conclusions that come from well intentioned and usually educated people is based upon snapshot type studies, under specific conditions, AND are not AT ALL relevant to those of us who have an altered energy cycle via fat adaptation.

It’s a bit like black people getting in a stir over the latest findings on sunscreen. It’s just really doesn’t apply if you’re not a light skinned white person.

Everything has to be taken in context and this is exactly why Dave Barr exposed the point about not needing to worry with glycogen stores after workouts. You DON’T use that much unless you train for hours per day via anaerobic activities AND you don’t need a huge surge to get a positive insulin response.

Best,
DH

My new slogan: Keep it in context

3131

Below is some good reading for everyone. Also, I encourage the use of Surge on the weekend workouts, lest one think I’m anti. It is all about timing. Use faster proteins for the effect on the low CHO days with the possible addition of a kick of CHO to the tune of 10-20g. This leaves you enough to use the rest of the day, if you are smart.

Enjoy:

1: J Nutr. 2002 Aug;132(8):2174-82.
Plasma glucagon and insulin responses depend on the rate of appearance of amino acids after ingestion of different protein solutions in humans.
? Calbet JA,
? MacLean DA.
Copenhagen Muscle Research Center, Rigshospitalet, Section 7652, Blegdamsvej 9, Denmark. lopezcalbet@terra.es
To find out whether the hormonal response to feeding with protein solutions is influenced by the nature and degree of protein fractionation, we examined insulin and glucagon responses after intake of protein solutions containing the same amount of nitrogen (2.9 g each) in three men and three women. Four test meals (600 mL) [glucose (419 kJ/L), pea (PPH) and whey peptide hydrolysates (WPH) (921 and 963 kJ/L, respectively) and a cow’s milk solution (MS) containing complete milk proteins (2763 kJ/L)] were tested. Peptide hydrolysates elicited a faster increase in venous plasma amino acids than did MS (P < 0.05). Despite the higher carbohydrate content of the MS, the peptide hydrolysates elicited a peak insulin response that was two and four times greater than that evoked by the MS and glucose solutions, respectively (P < 0.05). The insulin response was closely related to the increase in plasma amino acids, especially leucine, isoleucine, valine, phenylalanine and arginine, regardless of the rate of gastric emptying. The three protein solutions elicited similar increases of plasma glucagon; however, the response was fastest for both peptide hydrolysates (P < 0.05) and more prolonged for the MS (P < 0.05). The glucagon response was linearly related to the increase in plasma amino acids, regardless of the rate of gastric emptying or meal composition (r = 0.93, r = 0.96 and r = 0.78, all P < 0.05, for the PPH, WPH and MS). Among the plasma amino acids, tyrosine (r = 0.82-0.98, P < 0.05) and methionine (r = 0.98, P < 0.001) were most closely related to the plasma glucagon response. This study shows that the glucagon response to feeding with protein solutions depends on the increase in plasma amino acid concentrations. The combined administration of glucose and peptide hydrolysates stimulates a synergistic release of insulin, regardless of the protein source
^
^
(DH Note: We don?t need it to be THAT high (combo of high CHO and AA?s), just high enough to get the job done. Excess CHO beyond this is unnecessary and may well lessen the effect of the Carb Load. This is specific to those of us on the AD and fat adapted.)

1: Pancreas. 1989;4(3):305-14
Role of amino acids in stimulation of postprandial insulin, glucagon, and pancreatic polypeptide in humans.
? Schmid R,
? Schusdziarra V,
? Schulte-Frohlinde E,
? Maier V,
? Classen M.
Department of Internal Medicine II, Technical University of Munich, F.R.G.
Protein-rich meals stimulate secretion of insulin, glucagon, and pancreatic polypeptide (PP) from the endocrine pancreas. On the one hand, this is due to increased levels of circulating amino acids, and, on the other, neural and/or endocrine factors can contribute to activation of islet cell function. The present study was designed to determine, first, pancreatic endocrine function and postprandial amino acid levels after a protein and a protein-carbohydrate meal and second, insulin, glucagon, and PP levels during infusion of amino acid mixtures that imitate the postprandial amino acid pattern. In healthy volunteers the ingestion of a protein-rich meal (300 g tenderloin steak) elicited within 1 h an increase of virtually all amino acids by 20-400 mumol/L above basal values. The infusion of two different amino acid solutions available for use in humans showed that Aminosteril-N-Hepa (AS) was better for the imitation of the so-called “insulinogenic” amino acids while Aminoplasmal L-10 (AP) gave more comparable plasma levels of the “glucagonogenic” amino acids. Both solutions were not able to imitate the postprandial amino acid pattern completely. With regard to insulin levels, both solutions gave a comparable increase, while AP but not AS stimulated glucagon and PP levels. This suggests that circulating amino acids may be responsible for 60% of the postprandial insulin response after a protein meal, while their contribution to glucagon release can only be roughly estimated at 30-60%. The contribution of circulating nutrients to the greater insulin response after the protein-carbohydrate meal was comparable (60%), while the attenuated glucagon response can be ascribed almost completely to the effect of circulating nutrients. In conclusion, the present data demonstrate that the composition of amino acid mixtures is as yet not ideal for a complete imitation of the postprandial amino acid pattern. The insulin, glucagon, and PP response depends on the amino acid mixtures and accordingly the respective plasma amino acid concentrations obtained during infusion studies. The adequate imitation of plasma amino acid levels is of critical importance for the evaluation of absorbed and circulating amino acid effects in the postprandial state.

3132

Ta Sasha, i’m going to chill and keep on the AD

3133

I’m getting the distinct impression that the reading of the thread is becoming neglected. I see questions that were addressed, usually in detail, back at the beginning. Just a reminder to you guys. If you are taking the time to look up info on the diet on other sites and read it (a good thing) then you should have time to read the thread and gain an education.

Rant over.

DH

Vince’s Name has been mentioned repeatedly, and many other topics have been touched on. Check it out on the thread.

3134

[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
This is being touched upon a bit and I want to clear this up:

My new slogan: Keep it in context
[/quote]

Thanks DH. I think this was me. I should’ve known better than writing from memory instead of actually looking it up. While you’re here can I ask what happens if you overdo the protein during a carbup?
Thanks and I’ll try n be more careful.

–Tiribulus->

I had to edit this post because I didn’t see your next two before responding the first time. That is indeed fascinating. I knew lipids and proteins did elicit some insulin response, but had no idea it could that pronounced for aminos.

That does indicate that there is little need for much additional cho post workput. If I get a chance I’m going to go back through this titanic thread again and create a pdf file out of the most pertinent info. I’m sure I’ll rediscover a bunch of stuff I don’t remember from the first marathon read.

3135

No problems. Yes, the idea for us is “enough”. We can enough of a response with faster proteins/AA’s and can include an acceptable amount of CHO. For me, I like the following:

Using 3x per week training
Sat: take whey (45mins prior)
take a Surge type drink after
take a second one an hour later

Mon:
*take whey (45mins prior)OR EAA (15g)about 20 mins prior
*take same immediately after
*take whey 1 hour later (3rd intake)

Wed:
*take whey 45min prior or EAA (15g) 20 min prior
*take same after w/15g glucose
*take whey 1 hour later

Having loaded on Sat and Sun, my Mon workout is good and Wed is fine with a little acceptable CHO.

DH

3136

No problems, Trib. None at all, just want to make sure folks are paying their dues by reading the thread. :wink:

Thought you all might like Dr. Stout’s response to me a few weeks ago:

DH, Your supplement regiment looks great. Recently, there was a paper showing the taking EAA prior to working out was much more anabolic than consuming intact protein. In addition, consuming EAA or BCAA with some carbs (i.e. 6g in 16oz of Gatorade) during your workout (between sets) will accelerate muscle gains much faster than consuming only EAA or CHO or Nothing. And finally, Post workout (in my opinion) should consist of a slow (casein) and fast (whey) protein spiked with BCAA for a total serving of 20 to 30 grams (10g Casein; 10g Whey, 5 to 10g BCAA)

Stimulation of Net Muscle Protein Synthesis by Whey Protein Ingestion Before and After Exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2006 Aug 8; [Epub ahead of print]

Liquid carbohydrate/essential amino acid ingestion during a short-term bout of resistance exercise suppresses myofibrillar protein degradation.
Metabolism. 2006 May;55(5):570-7.

Independent and combined effects of liquid carbohydrate/essential amino acid ingestion on hormonal and muscular adaptations following resistance training in untrained men.
Eur J Appl Physiol. 2006 May;97(2):225-38. Epub 2006 Mar 24.

Combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases postexercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects.
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Apr;288(4):E645-53. Epub 2004 Nov 23.

Note that he suggested only 28g of gatorade to be used during training. You’re seeing more and more researchers nixing the excessive CHO because, for those of us not training in an anaerobic fashion for hours a day, we don’t need to concern ourselves with glycogen stores via a CHO sledgehammer.

We are ONLY concerned with it’s synergistic effects with proteins for insulin stimulation and protein synthesis.

We should focus on taking the lowest common denominator from the research and tailoring it to the AD.

Also, as a note, I realize that you don’t get a significantly different anabolic respose taking whey before training vs after, BUT I’m theorizing that the pre consumption of whey will minimize protein degradation via amino acid presence in the blood.

Basically using cheaper whey to get an effect that is usually attributed to casein, namely the minimization of degradation via a longer sustained presence of AA in the blood.

It is suggested in the literature that the reason casein is “better” than whey in some instances is soley because of its time release effect. This is a double edged sword. After about 2 hours there is a refractory response and the body won’t continue with increased protein synthesis, but it will prevent degradation.

This is stated to be due to it’s prolonged presence. I suggest using whey drinks in succession so as to allow multiple protein synthesis kicks AND allow protein to be in the blood long enough to prevent catabolism. Best of both worlds.

For all interested, an excellent paper by Wilson and Wilson over at sportsnutritionsociety.org should be read, and re-read, and re-read. You can then read an applicable follow-up by the author, Jacob Wilson, at his site:

www.abcbodybuilding.com/proteinanalysisindex.php

3137

This study flows with my premise of pre workout whey can give us the benefit of casein and/or CHO (protection from protein degradation).

Note the last concluding statement in the study below:

: Eur J Appl Physiol. 2006 May;97(2):225-38. Epub 2006 Mar 24. Links
Erratum in:
Eur J Appl Physiol. 2006 May;97(2):239.
Independent and combined effects of liquid carbohydrate/essential amino acid ingestion on hormonal and muscular adaptations following resistance training in untrained men.Bird SP, Tarpenning KM, Marino FE.
School of Human Movement Studies, Charles Sturt University, Allen House 2.13, Bathurst, NSW, Australia. sbird@csu.edu.au

This investigation examined chronic alteration of the acute hormonal response associated with liquid carbohydrate (CHO) and/or essential amino acid (EAA) ingestion on hormonal and muscular adaptations following resistance training. Thirty-two untrained young men performed 12 weeks of resistance training twice a week, consuming ~675 ml of either, a 6% CHO solution, 6 g EAA mixture, combined CHO + EAA supplement or placebo (PLA). Blood samples were obtained pre- and post-exercise (week 0, 4, 8, and 12), for determination of glucose, insulin, and cortisol. 3-Methylhistidine excretion and muscle fibre cross-sectional area (fCSA) were determined pre- and post-training. Post-exercise cortisol increased (P<0.05) during each training phase for PLA. No change was displayed by EAA; CHO and CHO + EAA demonstrated post-exercise decreases (P<0.05). All groups displayed reduced pre-exercise cortisol at week 12 compared to week 0 (P<0.05). Post-exercise insulin concentrations showed no change for PLA; increases were observed for the treatment groups (P<0.05), which remained greater for CHO and CHO + EAA (P<0.001) than PLA. EAA and CHO ingestion attenuated 3-methylhistidine excretion 48 h following the exercise bout. CHO + EAA resulted in a 26% decrease (P<0.01), while PLA displayed a 52% increase (P<0.01). fCSA increased across groups for type I, IIa, and IIb fibres (P<0.05), with CHO + EAA displaying the greatest gains in fCSA relative to PLA (P<0.05). These data indicate that CHO + EAA ingestion enhances muscle anabolism following resistance training to a greater extent than either CHO or EAA consumed independently. The synergistic effect of CHO + EAA ingestion maximises the anabolic response presumably by attenuating the post-exercise rise in protein degradation.

PMID: 16456674 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

If we provide whey as a substrate and/or produce a higher blood AA concentration before we begin the process of degradation via training, we can alleviate the perceived need for a slow protein (casein) and glucose to protect protein levels WHILE we get an anabolic burst (protein synthesis up 68%) with more whey, or EAA’s. The protein in your system for the next 3 hour block, presented to your system in a pulse fashion will avoid the refractory problem with casein, AND will give us both anabolism and anti-catabolism. And did I mention whey is cheap and availabe for a great price here at the nation… :wink:

DH

3138

Hoss,

Your peri-workout ideas are fantastic and make a lot of sense. I have had much success with supplementing with Whey and EAA’s around my workouts.

Here’s a question to you regarding whey protein consumption throughout the day . . .

Given that fats slows the release of certain nutrients into the blood stream, would this not make whey supplementation, rather than casein, a better option throughout the day? We would not have to worry as much about protein wastage, and the time release issue, and I believe the body’s nitrogen balance would also benefit as well.

Thoughts?

Sasha

3139

This question is for Sasha, DH or anyone who can answer. For cutting fat, what do you think about cutting out a large % of fat intake and upping the protein. Assuming fat adaptation, wouldn’t the body use body fat for energy and the extra protein would spare muscle? If so, I’m going to try this for however long you think it would work and I’ll do another induction phase if you think it’d be necessary.

3140

[quote]allNatural wrote:
For cutting fat, what do you think about cutting out a large % of fat intake and upping the protein. Assuming fat adaptation, wouldn’t the body use body fat for energy and the extra protein would spare muscle?
[/quote]
What you mention is exactly DiPasquale’s advice for dropping bodyfat: To cut bodyfat once one is fat adapted, lower calories by decreasing dietary fat intake and keep protein intake the same or even increase it.
And it makes sense. On a lower carb diet, one should not decrease protein intake, and carbs are already low, so the only thing left to lower is dietary fat intake.

3141

[quote]TommyGunn wrote:
allNatural wrote:
For cutting fat, what do you think about cutting out a large % of fat intake and upping the protein. Assuming fat adaptation, wouldn’t the body use body fat for energy and the extra protein would spare muscle?

What you mention is exactly DiPasquale’s advice for dropping bodyfat: To cut bodyfat once one is fat adapted, lower calories by decreasing dietary fat intake and keep protein intake the same or even increase it.
And it makes sense. On a lower carb diet, one should not decrease protein intake, and carbs are already low, so the only thing left to lower is dietary fat intake. [/quote]

Cool, thanks. I haven’t read the book but it made sense when I thought of it. Also, by doing this, will your body burn its own fat until theres none left or will you lose your fat adaptation after some amount of time and start burning protein, requiring another induction phase?