I second the milk issue. Sunday evening is always a bit scary if you’re all bloated out from milk. I react poorly to it as well.
DH -
Wow! Thank YOU! Of course the additional CHO would come from AD approved sources (veggies and negligible carbs from protein and fat sources). Just to clarify, when you say 50g, we are talking Total Carbs - Fiber, correct? Other advocates don’t necessarily make that distinction.
First of all I just want to say this thread has been very informative and is 90% of the reason I’ve just joined this forum.
I’m looking to get back in shape and while I have done well on atkins in the past for weight loss I would like to put on some muscle this time around and believe this will be a much better plan. My question is seeing as how I do have a high BF%(probably higher than 35%) should I still use 18x bodyweight to figure caloies per day or should I cut back to take into account my lean body mass? I weigh over 285 pounds and 18x bodyweight is over 5000 cals wich seems high for someone who does not have the muscle mass that a bodybuilder would.
thanks, Eric
When I did the transition last summer, I did the 18X exactly and felt as though I added some fat during the adaptation. If you know how many calories it takes for you to maintain on a regular diet, I would use close to the same numbers and use that as a starting point. I feel that 18x can be overkill for some people, however, it also can be just right or sometimes too little, all depends on the person.
[quote]ec_fritz wrote:
First of all I just want to say this thread has been very informative and is 90% of the reason I’ve just joined this forum.
I’m looking to get back in shape and while I have done well on atkins in the past for weight loss I would like to put on some muscle this time around and believe this will be a much better plan. My question is seeing as how I do have a high BF%(probably higher than 35%) should I still use 18x bodyweight to figure caloies per day or should I cut back to take into account my lean body mass? I weigh over 285 pounds and 18x bodyweight is over 5000 cals wich seems high for someone who does not have the muscle mass that a bodybuilder would.
thanks, Eric[/quote]
IMO, I don’t think you need to go that high. When I started getting back in shape I was around 290 and 28% BF. I’ve lost of 50 lbs of fat and put on some nice muscle.
When starting this diet, there was no way I could eat the 18x amount. I aimed for 3000 calories, which on some days I have hard time getting to if I am eating lean meats such as chicken or turkey. It’s much easier to hit your calories levels with beef, or it is for me.
Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress.
EGC
[quote]ec_fritz wrote:
First of all I just want to say this thread has been very informative and is 90% of the reason I’ve just joined this forum.
I’m looking to get back in shape and while I have done well on atkins in the past for weight loss I would like to put on some muscle this time around and believe this will be a much better plan. My question is seeing as how I do have a high BF%(probably higher than 35%) should I still use 18x bodyweight to figure caloies per day or should I cut back to take into account my lean body mass? I weigh over 285 pounds and 18x bodyweight is over 5000 cals wich seems high for someone who does not have the muscle mass that a bodybuilder would.
thanks, Eric[/quote]
New protein: Just received some Dymatize ISO 100 protein with zero carbs and zero fat. Seems perfect for this diet. Has anyone tried it?
Thanks.
EGC
I have a small question for DH or anyone experienced in the AD AND NHE.
Doc. DiPasquale says high carb/moderate fat on the refeeds to control insulin output while Rob Faigin suggests STRICTLY carbs with as little fat and protein as possible. Is one method more efficacious than the other? I’ve also heard of a diet almost EXACTLY like the NHE except with carbs + fat on the refeeds every 3rd day to control insulin. Thoughts?
I’m not going to get technical here becasue I’m not sure myself, but I would like to say that while Faigin emphasizes mainly carbs on the loads, he does say that meals can include up to 20 grams of protein and up to 20 grams of fat, so he’s not completely anti C+F.
[quote]AceDeuce wrote:
I have a small question for DH or anyone experienced in the AD AND NHE.
Doc. DiPasquale says high carb/moderate fat on the refeeds to control insulin output while Rob Faigin suggests STRICTLY carbs with as little fat and protein as possible. Is one method more efficacious than the other? I’ve also heard of a diet almost EXACTLY like the NHE except with carbs + fat on the refeeds every 3rd day to control insulin. Thoughts?[/quote]
Yes. Whenever I use the term CHO, I’m limiting it to “active” CHO for our uses here. I prefer, for clarity, to think of fiber as it’s own category
DH
[quote]zdrax wrote:
DH -
Wow! Thank YOU! Of course the additional CHO would come from AD approved sources (veggies and negligible carbs from protein and fat sources). Just to clarify, when you say 50g, we are talking Total Carbs - Fiber, correct? Other advocates don’t necessarily make that distinction. [/quote]
On caloric levels, I feel that a better number is BW x 15 to break-in. This is where you have to know yourself a little or at least if you tend to gain fat then go with the above to start and if you are an ectomorph then go for x18.
You’ll need to adjust from there for any given purpose anyway.
DH
True, speedy. Also, Faigin allows for some more fat (pizza etc…) once you’ve done some cycles. Adaptation. Just as we’ve stressed here…about 50 pages ago or something. 
DH
[quote]speedy5323 wrote:
I’m not going to get technical here becasue I’m not sure myself, but I would like to say that while Faigin emphasizes mainly carbs on the loads, he does say that meals can include up to 20 grams of protein and up to 20 grams of fat, so he’s not completely anti C+F.
AceDeuce wrote:
I have a small question for DH or anyone experienced in the AD AND NHE.
Doc. DiPasquale says high carb/moderate fat on the refeeds to control insulin output while Rob Faigin suggests STRICTLY carbs with as little fat and protein as possible. Is one method more efficacious than the other? I’ve also heard of a diet almost EXACTLY like the NHE except with carbs + fat on the refeeds every 3rd day to control insulin. Thoughts?
[/quote]
Thanks for the replys. I read the book and I’m planning to start after this weekend. I dug out a set of power blocks and a simple flat bench that I’ve had in the closet for a while (I know, these things don’t work well sitting in a closet) and I’m plannig on doing a variation of the 20 rep squat program to start. I’ll let you know how I’m doing after I’ve been at it a little while.
Okay guys, I have to admit a dirty little secret. I love working out during carb loads. Why, you might ask?
Going into the gym - let’s be honest - with an engorged and very full stomach gives me such tremendous stability on lower body lifts. I kid you not I’ve put 35lbs onto my x 8 max, and increased my 1RM on the squat by atleast as much while losing fat. Unbelievable.
The loads make me so filled and tremendously vascular that the gym regulars (who see me depleted) give me looks of incredulity. It’s pretty amusing to be honest.
God I love this diet.
[quote]zdrax wrote:
Okay guys, I have to admit a dirty little secret. I love working out during carb loads. Why, you might ask?
Going into the gym - let’s be honest - with an engorged and very full stomach gives me such tremendous stability on lower body lifts. I kid you not I’ve put 35lbs onto my x 8 max, and increased my 1RM on the squat by atleast as much while losing fat. Unbelievable.
The loads make me so filled and tremendously vascular that the gym regulars (who see me depleted) give me looks of incredulity. It’s pretty amusing to be honest.
God I love this diet. [/quote]
I feel you exactly!
Especially the afternoon of the first day of the load i’m an ANIMAL.
Fresh fuel plus abundant cals plus non working day = the right attitude for heavy, cruel lifting
I’ve been reading this thread (in bits and pieces) and am thinking about giving the AD a solid shot. I’d like to ask some of the veterans a question (or 12).
I am a rugby player. currently 195 lbs. at 6’1" and my goals are to dramatically increase GPP, speed, strength and power. BF is approx. 10%.
Our season ended a month ago and I’ve basically been on my butt for that whole time. I’m going to spend the next 6 weeks systematically increasing my work capacity(GPP) and then move into a powerlifting cycle for 6 months followed by 3 months Olympic lifting.
i’ve got so many areas that need improving but I figure it all starts with strength so I may forgo anything but GPP and powerlifting until I feel that the OL is required to continue athletic progression. Not sure, we’ll see what happens.
My goals are to increase to 225 lbs. at 8% over the next few years. And I could get specific about what I want to do in the base lifts but suffice it to say I want to DRAMATICALLY increase strength.
I’m thinking either Berardi’s PN or the AD. Any thoughts? I have 8 months to experiment before next season abd I want to make good gains and figure out how to get maximum energy/power on game day by then.
Any help at all on which diet/ what I can expect as a rugger rather than BB or PL or BB will be tremendously appreciated!
Sean
I’ve been thinking alot about diets like the AD and NHE and why my first attempt at the AD wasnt successful. I think that I needed to eat alot more vegetables as my carb sources and not worry about STRICTLY being under 30g of carbs. If I give it another go, I’m going to try to eat alot more fibrous veggies and just try to stay under 40-50g carbs.
The other reason I dont think it worked for me the first time was I didnt eat nearly enough on the carb loads. I would have 2 bagels, some oatmeal, maybe some fast food if I wanted and some cereal and thats it. I think I need to be eating a LOT more on the carb loads and not worry about it. Has anyone else had similar conclusions?
Also, it seems to me that “bulking” calories are a bit higher than what they would be on a normal higher carb diet. Say for example that I need to eat 3200 calories to gain weight on a normal diet, I would need closer to 3500 on the AD BUT the gains would be leaner than on a typical diet. I know in Doc. D’s book he says people on the AD gain a higher proportion of muscle to fat, but do you have to eat higher calories than normal to do so?
Sorry for my rambling, I just had to type out some of the thoughts I’ve been having. 
You dont HAVE to take creatine with carbs. Alot of companies made creatine + simple carbs as a post workout product because the insulin spike supposedly helps shuttle creatine into the muscles. Just take 5g of creatine daily and you’ll be fine.
Ace Deuce,
I’ve only been on the diet for 6 or 7 weeks, but I have also found that LOTS of carbs are my friend on the loads. And I also think it’s true that you have to eat more to gain mass on this diet. I started at 3000 and was taking in 3500 calories on weekdays with God knows how much on the weekends and I am down 7 pounds since starting the diet. I am trying to put on some…no, a lot of mass and am taking weekday calories up to 4,000 and taking the restrictor plate off on the weekends to see what happens.
I’m 5’9", 164 lbs. right now and am starting a bulk that’s gonna go until I am tipping over 2 bills. What’s amazing is that my strength is way up since starting 6 total-body workouts a week but have dropped a pound in scale weight over the past three weeks. Like I said, I’m gonna see where going up to 4,000 from 3,500 calories on the weekdays and ridiculous carb loads takes me, but I honestly don’t see myself laying down much fat in the future. I’m sure there will be more increases in caloric intake to come. This diet works. I honestly can’t see myself ever going back to a more conventional diet.
Best of Luck,
Zac
[quote]RuggerSean wrote:
I’ve been reading this thread (in bits and pieces) and am thinking about giving the AD a solid shot. I’d like to ask some of the veterans a question (or 12).
I am a rugby player. currently 195 lbs. at 6’1" and my goals are to dramatically increase GPP, speed, strength and power. BF is approx. 10%.
Our season ended a month ago and I’ve basically been on my butt for that whole time. I’m going to spend the next 6 weeks systematically increasing my work capacity(GPP) and then move into a powerlifting cycle for 6 months followed by 3 months Olympic lifting.
i’ve got so many areas that need improving but I figure it all starts with strength so I may forgo anything but GPP and powerlifting until I feel that the OL is required to continue athletic progression. Not sure, we’ll see what happens.
My goals are to increase to 225 lbs. at 8% over the next few years. And I could get specific about what I want to do in the base lifts but suffice it to say I want to DRAMATICALLY increase strength.
I’m thinking either Berardi’s PN or the AD. Any thoughts? I have 8 months to experiment before next season abd I want to make good gains and figure out how to get maximum energy/power on game day by then.
Any help at all on which diet/ what I can expect as a rugger rather than BB or PL or BB will be tremendously appreciated!
Sean[/quote]
Brother, you join an 80-pages thread about AD and you ask what to choose between AD and PN? Ok, choose PN.
You want to mass-up and be stronger? Good for you, so does everybody else.
That is exactly the topic discussed in the previous 2000 posts. Spend sometime reading (at least) the highlights of the thread (mostly Disc Hoss and Il Cazzo’s posts) and i guarantee you it will be time very well spent.
You will learn so many useful things about your body and how to feed it that your choice will be a lot easier. Afterall, a strategic decision about how to eat and train for the next half a year is worth some hours (or days) of reading!
I wasn’t looking for be all/ end all recommendation. I’ve read maybe 20 pages of the thread (and yes I’ll admit that reading 1/3 of anything is a recipe for disaster) and I’ve noticed one guy who pursues an athletic endeavor somewhat similar to my own. Not saying that PLers or BBers etc aren’t atheletes, just vastly different from rugby. For that matter football is vastly different from rugby but it’s closer.
I’ve used something close to the PN to very succesfully lose fat. I have had zero success gaining muscle on the same eating plan (very possibly because I have not eaten enough calories). I’ve also noticed, or at least think I’ve noticed, a drop in T levels. less aggresive, not as strong, etc.
The AD seems to address both these issues, but you will all admit that the diet is “unconventional” and was designed for BB and PL. I was simply asking if it was as effective for more stamina/speed based sports in your collective opinions. Cause I’ve gotten the idea that energy levels go through the roof, but lately the thread has posts about energy drops at the end of the week, mid week carb spikes etc.
For what its worth I “feel” that a high fat/protein diet will work well for me but I haven’t yet experimented with it. And add in the wuss factor that I’m burned out on going backwards in my workouts and hesitant to start a new way of eating. yeah yeah the definition of insanity is doing the same thing expecting different results.
Anyway, think I’ll save as much of this thread onto the laptop so I can chew on it offline (taking your advice) and actually buy the book! Maybe I was just looking to shortcut the process.