My Experience On the Anabolic Diet Part II

Yes. That is perfectly fine. do it this way for a good 60 days. Then you can drop fat to as low as 40%. BUT CHO always stays low.

with fat this high, your energy will be very good and your body will be very liberal with using it.

In this example, 200g P (800cal), 200 F (1800 cals), and 25g CHO (100 cals) is 2700 cals total. Not too excessive at all.

DH

[quote]EasyRhino wrote:
DH wrote:
2. keep this caloric level and change your macros to fit the diet. I like a near 1:1 ratio of protein and fat grams. 200g pro and 200g fat for a 160-180lb guy for example.

Just looking at this from a difference (haven’t done AD myself), I guess that means that more than 2x of your calories are going to come from fat vs protein. That’s cool?
[/quote]

Not familiar with it directly. I’ve read his Keto book some time back. He is of the opinion that its good for cutting and accpetable for gaining. He focuses on the ketosis aspect way too much and misses the big picture adaptations in my estimation from that book.

Lyle is not a big guy, which is fine, but I don’t like his critiques (the same ones I hear everywhere as these guys read each other’s work and parrot one another). I addressed many of these critiques above.

Beyond that, I can’t say too much.

DH

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
DH, every once in a while I see a really knowledgeable poster who is constantly willing to help others. Cephalic_carnage and ScottM are 2 I’ve noticed in the past. I’m seeing now your definitely one of those guys too. Kudos.

Do you have an opinion on Lyle McDonalds UD2?[/quote]

  1. That is me rambling. Be glad my wife has trained me not to ramble like I did for years. :slight_smile:

  2. Always eat veggies. But my focus was how to help you load better and allow a longer, better load by keeping it buffered with these suggestions I gave.

  3. yeah, you can eat some goodies, but if you do the things I’ve listed it will help you significantly. And as you get leaner, you can enjoy more crap. BUT as is always emphasized, its about results.

  4. Any vinegar is fine.

  5. Well on smoothing with pop and milk, what this is telling you is that sucrose, lactose, and HFCS all work to fill fat stores EVEN THOUGH you’re muscle and liver are still depleted. These sugars will fill both, but quality CHO will have higher glucose content, which is better for filling muscle and liver. Its nutrient partitioning to a degree. Certain sugars do a better job of going toward muscle and others (percentage wise) fill fat stores faster. So, you see its not just about how much, but both how much and what kind.

  6. all days are at maintenance for at leat 30-60 days. You will be adjusted and can then begin to see which phase you will want or need. Mass, cutting, etc…

  7. Well, thats a huge discussion. If you have less than 2 yrs experience OR can’t at least bench your bodyweight for some reps and squat and/or dead 1.5x bodyweight, then you will be able to progress (load wise) faster because you have more potential then another guy who is at or above these markers. Just realize that you need to not go nuts on training. I like Poliquins definition of techincal failure. If speeds slows too much or technqiue fails, then you have failed. Stop the set. If speed slows signficantly, then call it quits. Those 5 second agonizing reps are frying the nervous system, particulary with the volume we use to build muscle. PLs can do it because the volume is lower. This is a huge and separate subject…

  8. Yeah, I don’t eat ā€œalotā€ per se. Don’t confuse what I need with what YOU need, though. This is HIGHLY individual. I like slow steady moderate cardio (a nice walk) 2-3x per week for cardio health and circulation.

When I started, I took my weight x 15 and then broke the macros down. For example at 170:
170x15=2550 cals
200g Pro=800 cals
190g Fat=1710 cals
25g CHO=100 cals

Thats about 2600. Close enough.

Then on the loads, I kept it low moderate protein, moderate fat, and moderate high CHO:

100-125g Pro=500 cals about 15-20% or so
100g Fat= 900 cals about 25-35% or so
325-350g CHO= 1300 cals about 50-60% or so

Don’t get too hung up on my numbers. They are a good guideline and will help you know what works best for you.

Best,
DH

[quote]Needmassquick wrote:
Wow thats a lot, did you just write that out now or get it from somewhere? I’ll try to break my questions up along the post so it’s easier.

DH wrote:

  1. Eat veggies/salad at EVERY meal. Fiber powder will do in a pinch too, but we’d like it to come from quality foods vs a container. But the container is fine too.

  2. Eat the veggies/salad FIRST at each meal. This will help reduce the total amount you eat and lower the glucose release rate of the rest of your meal.

Are these for everyday or just the carb load? I’d be eating a set amount of calories generally anyway so I don’t think it would matter in terms of reducing how much I eat. The glucose rate could be good though, never heard of eating a lot of veggies during a carb load.

  1. Eat quality CHO on the loads. Baked potatoes, sweet potatoes, peas, beans, rice, pasta, oatmeal, some of that brick like amish bread, and all the berries and fruits you want. The best choices are HIFWAC. High fat and water content. Melons, grapefruit, etc…

But its all good on the load. Then you can add in a treat. You wont have much room and consequently wont do much damage. Also, you wont find your cravings are out of control with the veggies and quality CHO in you already.

This is something I was going to do this time around since last time I stuck with almost entirely high GI carbs for about 700g of carbs or more (cereal, waffles, ff ice cream, etc…)

  1. Take 1-2tbsp of vinegar with each meal. This is strong stuff so chase it down with some water or tea. It will give a warm sensation in the throat and gut. It is slightly acidic and will assist with digestion as well as acid reflux problems. Because it is acidic, your body will secrete less endogenous HCL. Vineagar helps alkalize your system via a feeback loop of sorts.

Does it matter what kind of Vinegar (balsamic, distilled, apple cider, etc…)?

  1. Drink only a few ounces of liquid with a meal. Drinking more makes many some people smooth out faster. You can drink all you want between meals and about 30 mins after the meal. Dont forget your lemond wedge. Its your friend. :wink:

  2. Avoid milk and much ice cream. Milk is notorious for making most people smooth out rapidly. And the bloating as well. Many people don’t have the enzymes to digest it well once they pass about 2 years of age.

For these 2, does it matter if they make you smooth out faster if the carbs are the same? I thought being able to see when your smoothing out was to show you when you’ve had enough carbs but if those just make you seem smooth without being too much carbs would it matter, especially if you have a set amount your going to be eating anyway?

  1. Cut the load off at 33 hours to start. Saturday at 8am - Sunday at 5pm. If you follow the above advice then you should be able to handle this duration well most likely. use a protein, fiber, moderate fat meal (say 10-15g) around 8pm on Sunday to allow your body to clear the glucose and reestablish fat burning sooner.

And I’m originally keeping both of these days at the set ~2700 calories (or whatever maintenance is) overall?

Try to add work when you can to your training sessions. BUT don’t push it every workout like you always hear. That only works for beginners or on paper.
Sleep well and don’t party often.

Could you explain what you mean here? I understand you can’t push to absolute failure and beyond every workout and whatnot but you should be shooting for progress each time and pushing yourself correct?

Oh. I only eat about 3500 during the week and maybe 4000 on the loads. I don’t need all that much to grow. Especially if I don’t want to get too fat. This is highly individual.

Wow thats all? That seems like nothing for 240+lb person. Are you doing cardio? A lot of people mention how they can eat higher calories while on a keto/AD type diet…to gain anyway. What did you need when you were only 160-170lb and how do your AD calories relate to how much you need during a higher carb diet? I thought I was going to get to be eating a lot :frowning: lol[/quote]

In case you were wondering…yes, school is now in session.

Go DH, GO!

;^)

Hi Guys

Need some advice or encouragement

On day 15 of the diet and Ive pretty much had a dull headache the entire time, getting good gym sessions in as I do them first thing but Im pretty much wiped out for the rest of the day. I try to go out some evenings but Im shattered at 7 pm and as a result I really cant enjoy myself. My mood is pretty terrible, most people have noticed Im not the happy person I used to be. I wasnt on high carb previously, only carbs before where from fruit, milk and a few oats but removing those really hasnt done me much good. Will things change? or could it be that the diet just doesnt suit me?

any help appreciated

Dan

Hey!

Can someone of you tell me something about NHE by Rob Faigin? I think it“s nearly the same like the AD, isn t it?
Thank you!

[quote]SpiderDan wrote:
Hi Guys

Need some advice or encouragement

On day 15 of the diet…

Dan[/quote]

How did your first carb load go?
What are your macros like during the week?

[quote]SpiderDan wrote:
Hi Guys

Need some advice or encouragement

On day 15 of the diet and Ive pretty much had a dull headache the entire time, getting good gym sessions in as I do them first thing but Im pretty much wiped out for the rest of the day. I try to go out some evenings but Im shattered at 7 pm and as a result I really cant enjoy myself. My mood is pretty terrible, most people have noticed Im not the happy person I used to be. I wasnt on high carb previously, only carbs before where from fruit, milk and a few oats but removing those really hasnt done me much good. Will things change? or could it be that the diet just doesnt suit me?

any help appreciated

Dan[/quote]

Ditto to what Pauli asked… also, how are your kcals? Are you eating enough? And how about water? Drinking plenty of it?

For those younger guys (and others) who are hung up on who is doing what. And why others dont follow things like Doc says…

CT’s recent post:

"With regards to carb/protein post-workout nutrition, I have read that the ensuing insulin spike can be detrimental to insulin sensitivity if someone has a higher amount of body fat. Would you suggest not using the protocol unless sufficient insulin sensitivity is attained?

  1. I actually do not recommend post-workout carbs anymore. Catecholamines released during the training session reduces the response to insulin. So post-workout carbs are not super effective… not moreso than only post-workout protein.

  2. I now recommend carbs PRE workout. This way you get your insulin spike to start loading up on aminos then you switch to a non-insulin mediated amino acid transport during the workout (muscle contraction is needed for this). This is the best way to get as much aminos as possible into the muscle, and thus to stimulate as much growth as possible."


Notice that on issue Number 2, we can accomplish this with BCAA, hydrolysate(s), and/or a minimal amount of CHO mixed with this (still keeping daily total maxed out at 30-50g CHO, depending on adaptation and bodyweight).

Again, those pesky CHO are not needed.

Now, if one wanted to play with an interesting CHO, I’d go with Vitargo. And no, this is not just waxy maize. That was the original formulation. Its oat barley now. But none of that matters. It was the actual process used by the company that makes it.

It is reputed to hammer straight into the muscles like no other carb. But if we are using BCAA and/or hydrolysate pre-workout, as Ive stated before, then we will stimulate insulin no interferenece with the GH and IGF-1 release of the workout.

Now that’s having your cake and eating too.

Best,
DH

Post up what’ve you’ve been eating/drinking during this time, too.

[quote]Pauli D wrote:
SpiderDan wrote:
Hi Guys

Need some advice or encouragement

On day 15 of the diet…

Dan

How did your first carb load go?
What are your macros like during the week?[/quote]

Good eye. Sounds like a dehyration headache at first glance. I’ve had those and realized my caffeine was too high and my water intake was too low.

Creatine helps as well.

DH

[quote]sunshne wrote:
SpiderDan wrote:
Hi Guys

Need some advice or encouragement

On day 15 of the diet and Ive pretty much had a dull headache the entire time, getting good gym sessions in as I do them first thing but Im pretty much wiped out for the rest of the day. I try to go out some evenings but Im shattered at 7 pm and as a result I really cant enjoy myself. My mood is pretty terrible, most people have noticed Im not the happy person I used to be. I wasnt on high carb previously, only carbs before where from fruit, milk and a few oats but removing those really hasnt done me much good. Will things change? or could it be that the diet just doesnt suit me?

any help appreciated

Dan

Ditto to what Pauli asked… also, how are your kcals? Are you eating enough? And how about water? Drinking plenty of it?

[/quote]

[quote]Pauli D wrote:
SpiderDan wrote:
Hi Guys

Need some advice or encouragement

On day 15 of the diet…

Dan

How did your first carb load go?
What are your macros like during the week?[/quote]

Carb load was okay, went for 24 hours PWO (around 10AM) saturday till around 12.00PM sunday consisted of 5 meals saturday and 2 sunday. Tried to keep it relatively clean stuck to oats, fruit, wholemeal muffins, wholemeal bread, museli and sweet potato. Didnt feel crash cause Ive been tired pretty much the whole time anyway so it was no change.

Macros during the week (me being around 175)

3126 cals
312g protein
12g carbs (doesnt include carbs from green veg)
202g fat

As far as I can tell these are the recommendations for the diet (18xbw, 60% fat 40% protein)

[quote]DH wrote:
Post up what’ve you’ve been eating/drinking during this time, too.

Pauli D wrote:
SpiderDan wrote:
Hi Guys

Need some advice or encouragement

On day 15 of the diet…

Dan

How did your first carb load go?
What are your macros like during the week?

[/quote]

Diet is pretty much

Meal 1 = 5 whole eggs 1 tbsp fish oil
PWO = 1.5 scoops whey, 1 scoop milk protein, 1 tbsp EVOO
Meal 2 = 200g steak mince + 100g cottage cheese
Meal 3 = 135g tuna + 25g almonds
Meal 4 = 200g steak mince 1tbsp EVOO
Meal 5 = 200g Chicken + 100g Feta cheese + 1 tbsp fish oil
Meal 6 = 50g double cream, 2 scoop , milk protein

Green veg with meals 2, 4 and 5

I thought about dehydration but the pipes are flowing clear

to put it in perspective its 17:15 here in the UK and Im just about keeping my eyes open, I didnt have this problem before I started this diet.

I also take creatine PWO.

[quote]DH wrote:
Not familiar with it directly. I’ve read his Keto book some time back. He is of the opinion that its good for cutting and accpetable for gaining. He focuses on the ketosis aspect way too much and misses the big picture adaptations in my estimation from that book.

Lyle is not a big guy, which is fine, but I don’t like his critiques (the same ones I hear everywhere as these guys read each other’s work and parrot one another). I addressed many of these critiques above.

Beyond that, I can’t say too much.

DH

pumped340 wrote:
DH, every once in a while I see a really knowledgeable poster who is constantly willing to help others. Cephalic_carnage and ScottM are 2 I’ve noticed in the past. I’m seeing now your definitely one of those guys too. Kudos.

Do you have an opinion on Lyle McDonalds UD2?

[/quote]

Yea in his later books he states how he now believes ketosis itself isn’t really a requirement and it’s more the adaption to using fats as fuel that matters.

Now I’m getting excited to try it again :). 200g of fat a day is A LOT so I would definitely have a lot of leniency in what I ate (Also, basically any restaurant has burgers/steak/chicken). Gotta watch too much Saturated fat I guess though.

I wouldn’t be worried about body composition changing for the worse for 2 months if I kept it at maintenance and I could use that weight to keep a higher body weight up while getting stronger (something I might not have been OK with in the past but now sounds fine/fun).

I guess my only concern is what will happen when when trying to gain with this diet, although I’ll likely be cutting with it first since as I said I’ll use that maintenance period when I’m at the heaviest/highest bf% I want to be before cutting most likely. Just worried about bulking back up without peri-workout carbs :frowning: although I am seeing more now about how PWO carbs aren’t as beneficial as once believed.

[quote]DH wrote:

  1. Well on smoothing with pop and milk, what this is telling you is that sucrose, lactose, and HFCS all work to fill fat stores EVEN THOUGH you’re muscle and liver are still depleted. These sugars will fill both, but quality CHO will have higher glucose content, which is better for filling muscle and liver. Its nutrient partitioning to a degree. Certain sugars do a better job of going toward muscle and others (percentage wise) fill fat stores faster. So, you see its not just about how much, but both how much and what kind.
    [/quote]

2 things about this:
1.I think this was a big problem with my cut as I was too excited to stuff my face with tons of carbs, the majority of which came from sugars, milk, etc… So what your saying is those worse sugars preferentially go towards fat rather than filling depleted glycogen stores? I’ve seen many get really cut with 1000-2000g of carbs from crap but most were leaner so maybe thats why.

  1. Don’t all sugars get converted into glucose anyway?

[quote]DH wrote:

Then on the loads, I kept it low moderate protein, moderate fat, and moderate high CHO:

100-125g Pro=500 cals about 15-20% or so
100g Fat= 900 cals about 25-35% or so
325-350g CHO= 1300 cals about 50-60% or so

Don’t get too hung up on my numbers. They are a good guideline and will help you know what works best for you.

Best,
DH

[/quote]

Sounds good with the loads, similar to what I had (except lower protein) when I was doing a more moderate one. More food options with higher fat, but it worries me slightly. I guess if it’s at maintenance it will be fine.

[quote]DH wrote:
For those younger guys (and others) who are hung up on who is doing what. And why others dont follow things like Doc says…

CT’s recent post:

"With regards to carb/protein post-workout nutrition, I have read that the ensuing insulin spike can be detrimental to insulin sensitivity if someone has a higher amount of body fat. Would you suggest not using the protocol unless sufficient insulin sensitivity is attained?

  1. I actually do not recommend post-workout carbs anymore. Catecholamines released during the training session reduces the response to insulin. So post-workout carbs are not super effective… not moreso than only post-workout protein.

  2. I now recommend carbs PRE workout. This way you get your insulin spike to start loading up on aminos then you switch to a non-insulin mediated amino acid transport during the workout (muscle contraction is needed for this). This is the best way to get as much aminos as possible into the muscle, and thus to stimulate as much growth as possible."


Notice that on issue Number 2, we can accomplish this with BCAA, hydrolysate(s), and/or a minimal amount of CHO mixed with this (still keeping daily total maxed out at 30-50g CHO, depending on adaptation and bodyweight).

Again, those pesky CHO are not needed.

Now, if one wanted to play with an interesting CHO, I’d go with Vitargo. And no, this is not just waxy maize. That was the original formulation. Its oat barley now. But none of that matters. It was the actual process used by the company that makes it.

It is reputed to hammer straight into the muscles like no other carb. But if we are using BCAA and/or hydrolysate pre-workout, as Ive stated before, then we will stimulate insulin no interferenece with the GH and IGF-1 release of the workout.

Now that’s having your cake and eating too.

Best,
DH

[/quote]

Is the insulin response from BCAA’s and hydrolysate biphasic like that from carbs would be? Unfortunately when I do the AD/CKD I hit 30-50g from trace carbs so theres no room for added carbs.

Regarding pre-workout carbs though, I’ve been having oatmeal 45min. pre workout than a whey + Banana shake during the workout. With this research though I’m considering moving the whey+banana shake to something like 10min. Pre-workout. My reasoning being that the insulin from the shake might interfere with the catecholamines but I’m not sure

edit: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/md53.htm Since when does Mauro suggest high carbs and low fat?!? Now I can’t do the AD! lol…

Good to hear. Doc is always at the fore on this issue. You can get a bit confused when you read other guys’ tweaks. It looks reasonable, but often starts to Frankenstien the whole thing.

DH

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
DH wrote:
Not familiar with it directly. I’ve read his Keto book some time back. He is of the opinion that its good for cutting and accpetable for gaining. He focuses on the ketosis aspect way too much and misses the big picture adaptations in my estimation from that book.

Lyle is not a big guy, which is fine, but I don’t like his critiques (the same ones I hear everywhere as these guys read each other’s work and parrot one another). I addressed many of these critiques above.

Beyond that, I can’t say too much.

DH

pumped340 wrote:
DH, every once in a while I see a really knowledgeable poster who is constantly willing to help others. Cephalic_carnage and ScottM are 2 I’ve noticed in the past. I’m seeing now your definitely one of those guys too. Kudos.

Do you have an opinion on Lyle McDonalds UD2?

Yea in his later books he states how he now believes ketosis itself isn’t really a requirement and it’s more the adaption to using fats as fuel that matters.
[/quote]

NMQ, dont overthink or worry about this.

  1. Try to work on cutting some of the trace carbs. A good lc protein and oil between meals helps cut trace carbs. You should be able to find 15-20g if you try.

A spoon of honey works as easy as anything.

also, if you do any weekend training, then CHO is an option to play with.

amino/protein insulin stimulation is monophasic. Check my post a few days ago. I hit on this.

DH

You are a worrier. :wink:

Just jump in and enjoy this ride. It produces and its easy.

Just decide to put you mind to and ride it out. You’ll be better off than you would’ve been.

DH

[quote]Needmassquick wrote:
Now I’m getting excited to try it again :). 200g of fat a day is A LOT so I would definitely have a lot of leniency in what I ate (Also, basically any restaurant has burgers/steak/chicken). Gotta watch too much Saturated fat I guess though.

I wouldn’t be worried about body composition changing for the worse for 2 months if I kept it at maintenance and I could use that weight to keep a higher body weight up while getting stronger (something I might not have been OK with in the past but now sounds fine/fun).

I guess my only concern is what will happen when when trying to gain with this diet, although I’ll likely be cutting with it first since as I said I’ll use that maintenance period when I’m at the heaviest/highest bf% I want to be before cutting most likely. Just worried about bulking back up without peri-workout carbs :frowning: although I am seeing more now about how PWO carbs aren’t as beneficial as once believed.

DH wrote:

  1. Well on smoothing with pop and milk, what this is telling you is that sucrose, lactose, and HFCS all work to fill fat stores EVEN THOUGH you’re muscle and liver are still depleted. These sugars will fill both, but quality CHO will have higher glucose content, which is better for filling muscle and liver. Its nutrient partitioning to a degree. Certain sugars do a better job of going toward muscle and others (percentage wise) fill fat stores faster. So, you see its not just about how much, but both how much and what kind.

2 things about this:
1.I think this was a big problem with my cut as I was too excited to stuff my face with tons of carbs, the majority of which came from sugars, milk, etc… So what your saying is those worse sugars preferentially go towards fat rather than filling depleted glycogen stores? I’ve seen many get really cut with 1000-2000g of carbs from crap but most were leaner so maybe thats why.

  1. Don’t all sugars get converted into glucose anyway?

DH wrote:

Then on the loads, I kept it low moderate protein, moderate fat, and moderate high CHO:

100-125g Pro=500 cals about 15-20% or so
100g Fat= 900 cals about 25-35% or so
325-350g CHO= 1300 cals about 50-60% or so

Don’t get too hung up on my numbers. They are a good guideline and will help you know what works best for you.

Best,
DH

Sounds good with the loads, similar to what I had (except lower protein) when I was doing a more moderate one. More food options with higher fat, but it worries me slightly. I guess if it’s at maintenance it will be fine.
[/quote]

[quote]DH wrote:
You are a worrier. :wink:

Just jump in and enjoy this ride. It produces and its easy.

Just decide to put you mind to and ride it out. You’ll be better off than you would’ve been.

DH
[/quote]

Yup I am a worrier :). Well I will follow your advice as layed out and hopefully I’ll get better results this time now that I’m starting out more moderately.

It’s weird that DiPasquale suggested the high carbs low fat though don’t you think?

[quote]DH wrote:
NMQ, dont overthink or worry about this.

  1. Try to work on cutting some of the trace carbs. A good lc protein and oil between meals helps cut trace carbs. You should be able to find 15-20g if you try.

A spoon of honey works as easy as anything.

also, if you do any weekend training, then CHO is an option to play with.

[/quote]
Hm well I always train Saturday so I would at least have that yea. I doubt I would ever really do a full 48 hours carb up but I could see something like starting Saturday morning and then having breakfast carbs Sunday morning to take advantage of the pre-workout nutrition that is being shown to apparently be much more important than I thought.

Regarding trace carbs, I just checked my old keto diet I made and it was 67g of total carbs, I didn’t know it was that high. I went by it without vegetable carbs added which came out to about 45g. Looks like I was getting a lot from cottage cheese (18g), some from protein sources like eggs and protein powder (10-11g), a good amount from nuts/nut butter (15g), and then broccoli (22g). Theres some fiber there but yea I guess it adds up.

I used cottage cheese and PB/nuts for shakes because it’s so convenient. I guess in the future I can use protein powder instead of cottage cheese, but again nuts are really convenient. Even now with only 6g added from cottage cheese it comes out to 32g when fiber is subtracted.

Do you count fiber or carbs from vegetables? If I don’t have them I would definitely need to buy a fiber supplement