My Experience On the Anabolic Diet Part II

Nutrition
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[quote]nz6stringaxe wrote:
I don’t remember if I’ve mentioned this before, but has anyone else consistently woken up from 7-11 hours of sleep without any sort of hunger? My stomach has a warm comfort to it without any feeling of a void. If I weren’t concerned with starting my day with some grooming/hygiene followed by breakfast, I think food would be the last thing on my mind.

By the way, this even applied to waking up from a day of 1600 calories (though my last meal would be the last thing I did before going to bed).

With this subject of fullness in mind, I’d also like to share that any time I eat a sweet potato (roughly 250-300g) with some vegetables and lean meat (nearly no fat in this meal), I will be stuffed from the sweet potato, mainly. The calories will only be like, 400-600 as well.[/quote]

To be honest I’ve been enjoying my PB/flax bread/coffee breakfasts so much it’s usually the first thing on my mind when I wake up.
Despite this, I can easily go an hour or longer (with fasted aerobics or whatever) before thinking ‘I should really stick something in my pie hole…’.

Interestingly I’ve found recently that eating larger amounts seems to fuel my appetite all the more. When I restrict my calories I find myself almost reluctant to eat the next meal and actual physical hunger only starts to become an issue past the 3-4 hour mark after I last ate.

Today’s carb-load is a tragic example of the fueled appetite. I’ve barely been able to think straight with the next mealconstantly on my mind!

I just made these delicious onion bhajis…

…with the intention of saving them to have with my butternut squash curry later but ended up eating half the batch before I’d even realised what I was doing.

I also just made some rice milk loosely following the guidelines on this page: Rice Milks/Horchata (updated 8/15/98) .

Very plain on its own so I blended in some cocoa powder + cinnamon + molasses and man oh man oh man oh man - if you guys like chocolate milk then this is for you!

I was hoping to get a ride to the supermarket to buy some dried fruit and WW bread today - it’s a 2.5 hour walk and there’s no public transport round here - but it looks like I’m going to have to wait until tomorrow now.

hmm… I really think any AD thread will forever be destined to degrade to carbstravaganza food lists hehe

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Haha…nz6 I wake up with a mild hunger ping every morning…happy to say after all these years of eating healthy i finally have gotten the patience to obtain my maintenance! Two weeks ago, saturday prior to induction, I weighed in at 163.3 I weighed in tis morning at 162 after having 3000-3100 cals/day.

Now I know with carb ups ill be low on cals, since Im only counting carbs and I bet my fats will be lacking and I have no concern for protein, so I decided not to count one of my meals for today. I ditched the Asian buffet Ive created brining home left overs in order tokeep it clean. Oh boy how hard it was to throw it out but I knew it was only good because of the horrible sauces, soy and canola oils they douce everything in.

So I replaced it with a Grouper Reuben with black beans and rice and 1/3 piece of chocolate volcano cake. And for the rest of today, since I work, I’ll be eating on these Greens bars Ive yet to try.

Btw pretty sure i read this on the O.AD thread concerning fluid intakes during carb loads…I remember DH saying to sip water between meals so as not to bloat up during a meal making it seem like your don with the load. Can anyone chime in on fluid intake? So far Ive take in just Surge with creatine(32oz), Fuel (10oz), and sips of water between a few meals (8oz). I also read that drinking in between will allow following carb meals to shuttle the water from under the skin into the muscle, which became very apparent after drinking my Surge today (even on my light training day)

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Nevermind I answered my own question on page 7 my B. Wow

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So I ended up getting a ride to the supermarket after all. :smiley:

I just feasted on dairy-free rye bread with PB, apple, banana, raisins, dried pineapple, dried cranberry, and dried banana.

Wow what an experience haha

The chocolate rice milk I made is also in the picture - great stuff but I’m going to follow your advice bkmacky and sip it slowly in a little while (if I can control myself).

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Man, those onion things look pretty amazing.

I just made a mega pancake using some chocolate protein, cocoa powder, and peanut butter. It was quite the success…and of course what’s a pancake without a vast assortment of butters?

I think the whole carb-hunger versus fat hunger issue is a very good positive for the AD.

One thing I’m a bit put off about though, is it better to eat fat with the carbs? I always strive for the best, most ideal situation, no matter what it is. However, the nature of weekly carb depletion does make things a little more confusing. Even John Berardi mentioned a large intake of carbs being more beneficial than harmful on cyclical, carb-cycled diets.

His Getting Unshredded recommendation for reintroducing carbs is to first space their intake 3-4 days apart (which I’m stretching for the AD), and to not count them on top of your normal, newly slightly increased caloric total. That would imply that all the fat you’re eating is still there full-force.

In my head, I was thinking that a carb load would perhaps be better if fat was nearly eliminated and your diet for a day was just carbs of various kinds with a bit of protein. Since those nutrients are less energy dense than fat, I figured you may better meet a caloric goal.

I really have no solid idea on this matter.

Anyone care to share thoughts or lengthy explanations?

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[quote]nz6stringaxe wrote:

Anyone care to share thoughts or lengthy explanations?[/quote]

I remember reading in the original AD thread about fat intake during the loading phase. I’ll need to check through again for my own personal confirmation but I think it was something along the lines of increased insulin levels promoting lipogenesis. By consuming some fat (not sure on exact ratios here) this helps maintain a relative state of lipolysis.

This is probably either a crudely simplified understanding of the facts or just plain wrong, I’m gonna have a reread of the original thread and pick out the juicy parts - I’ll share anything relevent though I’m sure someone else can shed more light on this.

(Skimming Eat Like a Man, Part 1 “The problem is that the insulin also activates the lipogenic (fat-producing) enzymes and decreases the activity of the lipolytic (fat-burning) enzymes.”)

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In a nutshell alls well with that statement…F+C= huge insulin response! And ratios recommended for carb loads ar C-60-65 F-30-35 and P-~10…Ending tonight with a nice bowl of pudding with oats, dried fruit (prunes, apricots, dates, figs), chia seeds, and mixed nuts. Oh and a lotta veggies with a dairy free yogurt :slight_smile:

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So, ideally, the way to plan a day of eating is to start with your focus on a carb source (as opposed to starting with a protein source) and then filling in the gaps with fat and letting protein take care of itself through whatever you’re eating (nuts, grains, dairy, etc)?

It’s a bit difficult to think of carbs+fat being the ideal combination when it was touted as being the macro menace for a while. Is there anything in the literature to support this idea?

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well the point of the carb load is to create insulin spikes…now C+F was a no no (for every other diet) because of this…but we WANT IT so boom there ya go in laymen terms

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I also don’t really understand why it seems the consensus is that the carb loads should be separated from workouts. Wouldn’t it make more sense to use these super insulin surges directly for weekend training?

I can certainly see on the other hand, the whole carb coma thing wouldn’t be too supportive of psychological will to lift heavy weights.

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nz,

I agree with all of your statements.

Here is the Lylemcd inspired approach to the carb load, which is the pure consensus on his forums among pretty much everyone including a number of great coaches:

(1) minimize fat. Fat adds a lot of extra calories. Bad things happen when you combine enormous amounts of carbs and fats together as in a carb load.

(2) F+C decreases insulin response broseph. Which is why Surge is touted PWO. If you want the sick insulin response you eat protein and carbs

(3) Protein intake can definitely be scaled back but less than 1g/lb LBM is probably too low.

(4) a workout should be commenced. But not in the way you think. You are strongest 1-2 days after carb loading. Power workout then, lift HEAVY ASS WEIGHTS.

To prime for the carb load, do a standard BBs type workout. 6-12 rep sets, hit the entire body, don’t go too close to failure and just get the pump yaa. This will do lots of awesome shit, including depleting glycogen, and massively increase insulin sensitivity and nutrient partitioning. Which is really, really good since you are about to carb load like mad. THEN do your carb load.

(5) insane amounts of carbs are optimal, but it depends on your nutrition and training during the week. If you just did 5x5 work you didn’t deplete much glycogen and should scale back.

I don’t know if this is consistent with the AD but personally idc. I think this makes infinitely more sense than anything that involves eating 1/3 your calories from fat and huge amounts of carbs without a priming workout while carb loading, and is far better supported by scientific literature and results and the common practices of pro bodybuilders when it comes to carb loading.

Do whatever you want obviously. Just my opinion.

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I definitely agree with actionjeff.

It seems that if lipogenesis (or a lipogenic ‘environment’) is brought about by the insulin response then I would suppose the last thing you want is to be consuming dietary fat.
I was just under the impression that this fat intake would have the same fat mobilising effects as it does in the low-carb phase but it’s clearly a whole other ball game with the crazy-ass insulin levels.

I already cut my omega supplement intake by 1/2 or 2/3 on loads actually.

Which reminds me, I’ve noticed that the 3-6-9 supplement I’ve got at the moment contains carob, I’ve done a little searching myself but does anyone know the net carbs or insulin response for carob?

I was using Trader Joe’s salmon oil (getting more in a couple of days as the ratios are far better) but ran out and I’m up in rural Quebec at the moment so what I can’t get from the one nearby supermarket I have to either order online or forget about…

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I was wondering whether I made something wrong with “missing” carb loads since almost a month. Hell, it got out of my mind every weekend (including this too) and I don’t want to do it in the middle of schoolweek, as I need to maintain my mental abilities throughout the week.

Shall I just wait another 4-5 days, or I have already sucked it? I did not observed any “negative changes”, i’ve lost pounds of fat, especially from my lower back, love handles, and increased a bit strenght on some lifts. Nonetheless, I’m afraid if it was wise to let myself go without carbs for this long.

I do not use any supplements, and my carb intake is high from some aspect, as I eat tons of peanut butter, sometimes cottage cheese, and I believe this makes it up to 50 grams per day. :-\ Anything wrong? :\

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[quote]Vejne wrote:
I was wondering whether I made something wrong with “missing” carb loads since almost a month. Hell, it got out of my mind every weekend (including this too) and I don’t want to do it in the middle of schoolweek, as I need to maintain my mental abilities throughout the week.

Shall I just wait another 4-5 days, or I have already sucked it? I did not observed any “negative changes”, i’ve lost pounds of fat, especially from my lower back, love handles, and increased a bit strenght on some lifts. Nonetheless, I’m afraid if it was wise to let myself go without carbs for this long.

I do not use any supplements, and my carb intake is high from some aspect, as I eat tons of peanut butter, sometimes cottage cheese, and I believe this makes it up to 50 grams per day. :-\ Anything wrong? :[/quote]

There is nothing wrong with an extended low carb period, as long as your energy does not suffer.

However, there is some evidence of metabolic slow-down after a while. I don’t know how prevalent or accurate that is.

Have your regular carb-up this weekend and don’t worry about it.

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On the subject of fat on the carb-up:

idk how many times it has been said but it bears repeating. LOOK AT THE WRITERS GOAL.

Lyle McD is correct, But his focus is optimizing the plan for fat loss and muscle preservation. His keto diet is short-term and a whole lot stricter during the week.

DiPasquale is also correct, But his focus is on maintaining performance, because he lays the AD out as a lifestyle choice. His carb-ups are not ‘refeeds’. The calories are the same as during the week.

If you eat at or under maintenance during a carb-up, you will not store fat. Simply because the body will greedily hoard the glycogen influx in muscles and use dietary fat as fuel still (this has even been shown by Lyle).

I am not saying you must add add fat to your meals. Rather that if you focus on getting your starches in, you probably will hit the 60-30-10 anyway.

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Going with what actionjeff said thats my opinion too. DiPasquale’s idea in the AD is that your still using fat for fuel and the carbs are just going to replenish glycogen. That may be true to some extent but insulin is still going to be high as hell and storing whats in the blood (so definitely more fat the more of it you eat). Also most people eat more carbs on these carb loads than their muscles could even handle so there is a spillover effect causing even more fat gain.

I can’t say how much of a difference it’ll make but in my opinion for the best results I’d personally have mainly protein and carbs on carb ups and not have carbs exceed 400g. I’m sure some people would rather not think about it though and just have pizza or whatever with high F+C and I know plenty of people who do have crazy carb ups with pretty good results. Like I said, I can’t say how big the difference would be.

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[quote]Evil1 wrote:
On the subject of fat on the carb-up:

idk how many times it has been said but it bears repeating. LOOK AT THE WRITERS GOAL.

Lyle McD is correct, But his focus is optimizing the plan for fat loss and muscle preservation. His keto diet is short-term and a whole lot stricter during the week.

DiPasquale is also correct, But his focus is on maintaining performance, because he lays the AD out as a lifestyle choice. His carb-ups are not ‘refeeds’. The calories are the same as during the week.

If you eat at or under maintenance during a carb-up, you will not store fat. Simply because the body will greedily hoard the glycogen influx in muscles and use dietary fat as fuel still (this has even been shown by Lyle).

I am not saying you must add add fat to your meals. Rather that if you focus on getting your starches in, you probably will hit the 60-30-10 anyway.
[/quote]

I agree with this too. The thing is almost no one eats the same calories on a carb load. If I was to choose one to follow for getting cut it would by lyle mcdonalds. Some say he’s not as big as dipasquale but it doesn’t mean he’s not knowledgeable. The fact that he’s gotten to something like 5% bf while maintaining muscle is all I care about while cutting, not how big he got. If bulking I would probably change it up to some degree anyway by putting more carbs around workouts and scaling back my “carb up”…kind of what I’m doing now actually.

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Thanks for that response, actionjeff! It makes great sense, but could you rephrase/elaborate on number four?

Evil, you also bring up an interesting point about calories. If you take in the same energy from different nutrients, will adipose grow (semi-rhetorical)? It’s kind of like the reverse idea of coming off a normal high-carb diet into the AD and expecting body recomposition under maintenance calories and static bodyweight.

I wish from an experimental point of view that my diet was more high-carb before starting all this. I’d been a bit carbophobic, limiting starches but eating tons and tons of vegetables. Whenever I think of this, I remember once having a plate of about 4 kinds of vegetables with a hefty portion of protein, all weighing a couple pounds. I was stuffed after that one!

By the way, if any of you remember how much I was opposing the food choices of the AD, I’m starting to warm up a bit. I think the biggest issue is keeping carbs to 30g. Under the Get Shredded protocol, where carbs are a little more free around the 50-70g range (inc. fiber), I felt way less restricted. I just had a great breakfast of 3 eggs, 1 turkey brat, all tossed with spinach and peppers in a pan.

One more note regarding being strongest 1-2 days after a carb load…first, why is that? Second, after my competition when I accepted no physical activity for a week and simultaneously ate every junky thing I could think of, I was bursting with energy after the first few days. When I finally allowed myself back into the gym (I wish I hadn’t waited so long) the next week, I was just as strong as I felt. I shattered my PRs all over the place. Is there any knowledge-based guideline for how many carbs to ingest per lb of bodyweight at each load?

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This is from “The ketogenic diet” by lyle mcd

"Fat gain during the carb-up
During the first 24 hours of the carb-load, caloric intake will be approximately twice
maintenance levels. This raises concerns regarding the potential for fat gain during this time
period. We will see that fat gain during the carb-up should be minimal as long as a few guidelines
are followed.

In a study which looked surprisingly like a CKD, subjects consumed a low-carb, high fat
(but non-ketogenic) diet for 5 days and depleted muscle glycogen with exercise (22). Subjects
were then given a total 500 grams of carbohydrate in three divided meals. During the first 24
hours, despite the high calorie (and carb) intake, there was a negative fat balance of 88 grams.
This suggests that when muscle glycogen is depleted, incoming carbohydrates are used
preferentially to refill glycogen stores, and fat continues to be used for energy production.
Additionally, the excess carbohydrates which were not stored as glycogen were used for
energy (22). In general, the synthesis of fat from glycogen (referred to as de novo lipogenesis) in
the short term is fairly small (23,24). During carbohydrate overfeeding, there is a decrease in fat
use for energy. Most fat gain occurring during high carbohydrate overfeeding is from storage of
excessive fat intake (25). Therefore, as long as fat intake is kept relatively low (below 88 grams)
during the carb-up phase of the CKD, there should be minimal fat regain.

In a similar study, individuals consumed a low-carb, high fat diet for 5 days and then
consumed very large amounts of carbohydrates (700 to 900 grams per day) over a five day
period. During the first 24 hours, with a carbohydrate intake of 700 grams and a fat intake of 60
grams per day, there was a fat gain of only 7 grams. Collectively, these two studies suggest that
the body continues to use bodyfat for fuel during the first 24 hours of carb-loading.

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In the second 24 hours, with an intake of 800 grams of carbohydrate and a fat intake of 97
grams, there was a fat gain of 127 grams (26) indicating that the body had shifted out of ?fat
burning? mode as muscle glycogen stores became full. This is unlike the suggestions being made
for the CKD, where the carbohydrate intake during the second 24 hours should be lower than in
the first 24 hours. A large fat gain, as seen in this study would not be expected to occur on a CKD.
As long as fat intake is kept low and carbohydrate intake is reduced to approximately 5
gram/kg lean body mass during the second 24 hours, fat regain should be minimal. Once again,
individuals are encouraged to keep track of changes in body composition with different amounts
and durations of carb-loading to determine what works for them. Those who desire to maximize
fat loss may prefer only a 24 hour carb-up. This allows more potential days in ketosis for fat loss
to occur as well as making it more difficult to regain significant amounts of body fat.
"

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Another, sorry for the double post:

Summary of guidelines for glycogen supercompensation on the CKD

  1. 5 hours prior to your final workout before the carb-up, consume 25-50 grams of carbohydrate
    with some protein to begin the shift out of ketosis. Small amounts of protein and fat may be
    added to this meal.
  2. 2 hours prior to the final workout, consume 25-50 grams of glucose and fructose (such as fruit)
    to refill liver glycogen.
  3. The level of glycogen resynthesis depends on the duration of the carb-up and the amount of
    carbohydrates consumed. In 24 hours, glycogen levels of 100-110 mmol/kg can be achieved as
    long as 10 grams carb/kg lean body mass are consumed. During the second 24 hours of carbing,
    an intake of 5 grams/kg lean body mass is recommended.
  4. During the first 24 hours, the macronutrient ratios should be 70% carbs, 15% protein and 15%
    fat. During the second 24 hours, the ratios are roughly 60% carbs, 25% protein and 15% fat.
  5. As long as sufficient amounts of carbohydrate are consumed, the type and timing of intake is
    relatively less important. However, some data suggests the higher glycogen levels can be
    attained over 24 hours, if higher Glycemic Index (GI) carbs are consumed. If carbing is continued
    past 24 hours, lower GI foods should be consumed.