[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]Mtag666 wrote:
And just to clarify when steely asked why he though overbulking caused a stagnant total I’m sort of curious too. [/quote]
I’m not trying to be provocative by asking that, btw. I think it’s a legit ask for a follow up to the claim.
[/quote]
I didnt intend to accuse you of that. You’re a level headed guy and make your points without insulting people. I was curious too, X on the other hand I am almost certain was trying to be provacative.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]Mtag666 wrote:
And just to clarify when steely asked why he though overbulking caused a stagnant total I’m sort of curious too. [/quote]
I’m not trying to be provocative by asking that, btw. I think it’s a legit ask for a follow up to the claim.
[/quote]
Well you did put overbulking in quotes, which makes it a little more provocative than you may have intended. I dont want to speak for det, but to me its pretty clear that the extra bulk he put on did not lead to the added strength that he thought it would. Fact is he is lighter and stronger. How?[/quote]
It’s not clear that it’s necessarily the result of ‘overbulking’. The quotes are meant to stress the point and the fact that it’s his word.
We all have n=1 stories from our own experiences. I’m 15-20# lighter than I was 2 years ago (275->255-260). I put 30 lbs or so on my bench and increased my squat at a lighter weight, but those PR’s weren’t blocked because I ‘overbulked’- it’s because I cleaned up my diet a little and started training harder and whatever I did was what was needed to break the plateau. Maybe the extra conditioning helped my body utilize nutrients better and aided recovery.
Don’t know.
I didn’t diet down in the sense of cut calories for the sake of doing it, it just happened because those calories were better quality and I worked harder. I’m not even sure I cut any calories-- maybe in the effective sense that I worked harder.
I could have done the same and purposely upped the calories and I still would have gotten stronger no doubt in my mind, maybe even hit PR’s faster.
Don’t know.
I’m just curious as to why Det’s “overbulking” was somehow the actual cause of stagnation rather than just the manifestation of lacking somewhere else like enough protein or not training as hard as needed to progress.
Of course I have to state this explicitly before the trolls latch on–> I’m not saying he didn’t train hard, obviously he’s a monster, but everyone stagnates at some point and God only knows what it takes for anyone to break that plateau.
The flip side is there are decades of history of Powerlifters who ate themselves to bigger PR’s, hence the phrase “He looks like a powerlifter” and “Not.Sure.If.Fat.Or.Just.Powerlifter”
[quote]Mtag666 wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]Mtag666 wrote:
And just to clarify when steely asked why he though overbulking caused a stagnant total I’m sort of curious too. [/quote]
I’m not trying to be provocative by asking that, btw. I think it’s a legit ask for a follow up to the claim.
[/quote]
I didnt intend to accuse you of that. You’re a level headed guy and make your points without insulting people. I was curious too, X on the other hand I am almost certain was trying to be provacative. [/quote]
No worries, man.
stronger is the 2nd word in this forum…
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I responded because the thread was at the middle of the page and no one had responded in a day.[/quote]
Even assuming det forgot all about his very own thread dedicated to his very own progress after a single weekday (when most people are, ya know, busy with “Real Life” stuff), I’m pretty sure that’s why the term ‘bump’ was coined.
Quoting something that directly relates to what is currently a highly inflammatory topic on this forum (a topic which you and the person you were seeking a response from were both directly butting heads over, mind you) isn’t nearly as innocuous.
The fact that this comes as a shock is, simply, incredible. Given that, assuming you weren’t seeking a particular reaction/direction for this thread, the only thing my response “shows” about me is that I feel you genuinely have the social instincts and tact of a snot-eating, helmet-wearing kindergartner.
This is all I am going to say on the subject.
I can clarify this some for Det I think as I imagine he’s still busy chasing around all of the females he abstained from during the last couple of weeks of his prep.
I have been Det’s coach and have written his programming since late 2008. When I started writing his programs, he was cutting almost 20 lbs on meet week in order to get into the 181s. His gym PR and meet PR at that time was 505 lbs. So, 160lbs on an already advanced deadlift with a net bodyweight game of 15 lbs. Not bad. His best squat at that time was in the neighborhood of 475lbs, so that’s another 160lbs on an already strong squat.
At the time he refers to himself as “stagnant”, he was gaining weight (presumably bodyfat) at a rate that was outpacing his strength gains. At that level, you need to put 2.5-3lbs on your squat and deadlift per lb of bodyweight gained just to keep up. Unless you’re a superheavyweight or lifting in a thick squat suit, there’s not much point in carrying weight that doesn’t lift weight. Det doesn’t need a big power belly to improve his bench, as he’s got his arch down to a science and he doesn’t need it for his squat and pull because he’s built his midsection appropriately to handle big weights without a gut to push with.
After reaching the 220lb mark, he realized he was barely competetive as a 198, and dropped about 30 lbs of worthless weight without much detriment to his strength. Over the course of about 3 years, he’s put 25 lbs back on by gaining and leaning out in a slow, cyclical manner. He’s usually at his heaviest during meet preparation as this is when the training volume is highest and the weights are heaviest, and drops 5-10 lbs and tightens up during the months after every meet as his training switches to more gpp oriented and conditioning work is incorporated. The training loads aren’t so high that he needs the larger quantity of food, so between the training oriented towards being more in shape and the lower calories, the weight always comes off. I know a slow rate of 8 lbs of net weight gain per year is really limiting his progress, but I think he’s doing ok for a 23 year old grad student with two jobs and a ridiculous social life.
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]Mtag666 wrote:
And just to clarify when steely asked why he though overbulking caused a stagnant total I’m sort of curious too. [/quote]
I’m not trying to be provocative by asking that, btw. I think it’s a legit ask for a follow up to the claim.
[/quote]
Well you did put overbulking in quotes, which makes it a little more provocative than you may have intended. I dont want to speak for det, but to me its pretty clear that the extra bulk he put on did not lead to the added strength that he thought it would. Fact is he is lighter and stronger. How?[/quote]
It’s not clear that it’s necessarily the result of ‘overbulking’. The quotes are meant to stress the point and the fact that it’s his word.
We all have n=1 stories from our own experiences. I’m 15-20# lighter than I was 2 years ago (275->255-260). I put 30 lbs or so on my bench and increased my squat at a lighter weight, but those PR’s weren’t blocked because I ‘overbulked’- it’s because I cleaned up my diet a little and started training harder and whatever I did was what was needed to break the plateau. Maybe the extra conditioning helped my body utilize nutrients better and aided recovery.
Don’t know.
I didn’t diet down in the sense of cut calories for the sake of doing it, it just happened because those calories were better quality and I worked harder. I’m not even sure I cut any calories-- maybe in the effective sense that I worked harder.
I could have done the same and purposely upped the calories and I still would have gotten stronger no doubt in my mind, maybe even hit PR’s faster.
Don’t know.
I’m just curious as to why Det’s “overbulking” was somehow the actual cause of stagnation rather than just the manifestation of lacking somewhere else like enough protein or not training as hard as needed to progress.
Of course I have to state this explicitly before the trolls latch on–> I’m not saying he didn’t train hard, obviously he’s a monster, but everyone stagnates at some point and God only knows what it takes for anyone to break that plateau.
The flip side is there are decades of history of Powerlifters who ate themselves to bigger PR’s, hence the phrase “He looks like a powerlifter” and “Not.Sure.If.Fat.Or.Just.Powerlifter”
[/quote]
Blessed post
From the Church of Full House
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
I can clarify this some for Det I think as I imagine he’s still busy chasing around all of the females he abstained from during the last couple of weeks of his prep.
I have been Det’s coach and have written his programming since late 2008. When I started writing his programs, he was cutting almost 20 lbs on meet week in order to get into the 181s. His gym PR and meet PR at that time was 505 lbs. So, 160lbs on an already advanced deadlift with a net bodyweight game of 15 lbs. Not bad. His best squat at that time was in the neighborhood of 475lbs, so that’s another 160lbs on an already strong squat.
At the time he refers to himself as “stagnant”, he was gaining weight (presumably bodyfat) at a rate that was outpacing his strength gains. At that level, you need to put 2.5-3lbs on your squat and deadlift per lb of bodyweight gained just to keep up. Unless you’re a superheavyweight or lifting in a thick squat suit, there’s not much point in carrying weight that doesn’t lift weight. Det doesn’t need a big power belly to improve his bench, as he’s got his arch down to a science and he doesn’t need it for his squat and pull because he’s built his midsection appropriately to handle big weights without a gut to push with.
After reaching the 220lb mark, he realized he was barely competetive as a 198, and dropped about 30 lbs of worthless weight without much detriment to his strength. Over the course of about 3 years, he’s put 25 lbs back on by gaining and leaning out in a slow, cyclical manner. He’s usually at his heaviest during meet preparation as this is when the training volume is highest and the weights are heaviest, and drops 5-10 lbs and tightens up during the months after every meet as his training switches to more gpp oriented and conditioning work is incorporated. The training loads aren’t so high that he needs the larger quantity of food, so between the training oriented towards being more in shape and the lower calories, the weight always comes off. I know a slow rate of 8 lbs of net weight gain per year is really limiting his progress, but I think he’s doing ok for a 23 year old grad student with two jobs and a ridiculous social life.[/quote]
Great insight. I’ve recently gained weight for the sake of seeing a number on a scale and come to the realization that the last 10 pounds I gained didn’t correlate with enough of an increase in my squat or bench (deadlift always goes up no matter what haha). So I’m slowly lowering calories and my goal by the end of summer is to be down 10-15 pounds without any strength loss (I’ll probably switch to something like 5/3/1 during my “cut” because it’s doesn’t beat you up like the heavier stuff I’ve been doing). Then when it comes time to gain weight again, I’m going to go a bit slower, and when I stop gaining (hit a set point? trolol) I’m not going to increase calories just to see a bigger scale number.
Oh hey guys, I completely forgot about this thread
School and the fact the Bruins and Celtics are on right now is throwing me off.
Stronghold, my hetero life-mate said exactly what I was going to type out for you SteelyD
Sorry about that folks!
[quote]super saiyan wrote:
Blessed post
From the Church of Full House[/quote]
I am LoL’ing.
[quote]Mtag666 wrote:
Great insight. I’ve recently gained weight for the sake of seeing a number on a scale and come to the realization that the last 10 pounds I gained didn’t correlate with enough of an increase in my squat or bench (deadlift always goes up no matter what haha). So I’m slowly lowering calories and my goal by the end of summer is to be down 10-15 pounds without any strength loss (I’ll probably switch to something like 5/3/1 during my “cut” because it’s doesn’t beat you up like the heavier stuff I’ve been doing). Then when it comes time to gain weight again, I’m going to go a bit slower, and when I stop gaining (hit a set point? trolol) I’m not going to increase calories just to see a bigger scale number.
[/quote]
I will not attempt to speak for PX, but what you just described is what I’ve always interpreted from his posts – gain until you’re not comfortable with your look and/or gains, then “put the breaks on”.
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]Mtag666 wrote:
Great insight. I’ve recently gained weight for the sake of seeing a number on a scale and come to the realization that the last 10 pounds I gained didn’t correlate with enough of an increase in my squat or bench (deadlift always goes up no matter what haha). So I’m slowly lowering calories and my goal by the end of summer is to be down 10-15 pounds without any strength loss (I’ll probably switch to something like 5/3/1 during my “cut” because it’s doesn’t beat you up like the heavier stuff I’ve been doing). Then when it comes time to gain weight again, I’m going to go a bit slower, and when I stop gaining (hit a set point? trolol) I’m not going to increase calories just to see a bigger scale number.
[/quote]
I will not attempt to speak for PX, but what you just described is what I’ve always interpreted from his posts – gain until you’re not comfortable with your look and/or gains, then “put the breaks on”.
[/quote]Please keep defense of what X has done in the past in his own training out of this thread about the accomplishments of one of the strongest “people who are never going to accomplish anything” on this site.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
At the time he refers to himself as “stagnant”, he was gaining weight (presumably bodyfat) at a rate that was outpacing his strength gains. At that level, you need to put 2.5-3lbs on your squat and deadlift per lb of bodyweight gained just to keep up. Unless you’re a superheavyweight or lifting in a thick squat suit, there’s not much point in carrying weight that doesn’t lift weight. Det doesn’t need a big power belly to improve his bench, as he’s got his arch down to a science and he doesn’t need it for his squat and pull because he’s built his midsection appropriately to handle big weights without a gut to push with.
[/quote]
Thanks Stronghold. I still don’t see that the “overbulking” was the reason for the stagnation as implied by the original post, but rather as you described (and I alluded to) that fat (deadweight) was outpacing the gains. It appears his goal was to be more competitive in a lower weight class. By necessity, that means dropping scale weight.
So, Det “put the brakes on”, dropped and came back up.
In the end, he did what was right for him, and with impressive results.
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
At the time he refers to himself as “stagnant”, he was gaining weight (presumably bodyfat) at a rate that was outpacing his strength gains. At that level, you need to put 2.5-3lbs on your squat and deadlift per lb of bodyweight gained just to keep up. Unless you’re a superheavyweight or lifting in a thick squat suit, there’s not much point in carrying weight that doesn’t lift weight. Det doesn’t need a big power belly to improve his bench, as he’s got his arch down to a science and he doesn’t need it for his squat and pull because he’s built his midsection appropriately to handle big weights without a gut to push with.
[/quote]
Thanks Stronghold. I still don’t see that the “overbulking” was the reason for the stagnation as implied by the original post, but rather as you described (and I alluded to) that fat (deadweight) was outpacing the gains. It appears his goal was to be more competitive in a lower weight class. By necessity, that means dropping scale weight.
So, Det “put the brakes on”, dropped and came back up.
In the end, he did what was right for him, and with impressive results.
[/quote]
Take note that during the three years of moderate eating and 25lb gain, he made the same absolute progress on his 3 lifts as he did during the previous 2 years and 70 lb gain.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
At the time he refers to himself as “stagnant”, he was gaining weight (presumably bodyfat) at a rate that was outpacing his strength gains. At that level, you need to put 2.5-3lbs on your squat and deadlift per lb of bodyweight gained just to keep up. Unless you’re a superheavyweight or lifting in a thick squat suit, there’s not much point in carrying weight that doesn’t lift weight. Det doesn’t need a big power belly to improve his bench, as he’s got his arch down to a science and he doesn’t need it for his squat and pull because he’s built his midsection appropriately to handle big weights without a gut to push with.
[/quote]
Thanks Stronghold. I still don’t see that the “overbulking” was the reason for the stagnation as implied by the original post, but rather as you described (and I alluded to) that fat (deadweight) was outpacing the gains. It appears his goal was to be more competitive in a lower weight class. By necessity, that means dropping scale weight.
So, Det “put the brakes on”, dropped and came back up.
In the end, he did what was right for him, and with impressive results.
[/quote]
Take note that during the three years of moderate eating and 25lb gain, he made the same absolute progress on his 3 lifts as he did during the previous 2 years and 70 lb gain.[/quote]
Cool, so he did it more efficiently the second time. We should all learn so well from our experiences.
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
At the time he refers to himself as “stagnant”, he was gaining weight (presumably bodyfat) at a rate that was outpacing his strength gains. At that level, you need to put 2.5-3lbs on your squat and deadlift per lb of bodyweight gained just to keep up. Unless you’re a superheavyweight or lifting in a thick squat suit, there’s not much point in carrying weight that doesn’t lift weight. Det doesn’t need a big power belly to improve his bench, as he’s got his arch down to a science and he doesn’t need it for his squat and pull because he’s built his midsection appropriately to handle big weights without a gut to push with.
[/quote]
Thanks Stronghold. I still don’t see that the “overbulking” was the reason for the stagnation as implied by the original post, but rather as you described (and I alluded to) that fat (deadweight) was outpacing the gains. It appears his goal was to be more competitive in a lower weight class. By necessity, that means dropping scale weight.
So, Det “put the brakes on”, dropped and came back up.
In the end, he did what was right for him, and with impressive results.
[/quote]
I didn’t put the brakes on and dropped and came back up, nor was my goal suppose to be more competitive in a lower weight class, I’ve never been a 242er, and my frame is built for 220, which is what I am.
You don’t magically put on 300lbs on your total doing it that way.
What I’m saying is that I’m making the best gains now doing it through tracking my macros, training volumes, and proper periodization to maximize my body. That means tracking body fat is one of those components and that like muscle gains, strength gains have diminishing returns, letting yourself be a higher bodyfat percentage isn’t going to make your body anymore anabolic, just like it won’t get you any more stronger.
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]super saiyan wrote:
Blessed post
[/quote]
Vest Coats[/quote]
My haircut is not as ridiculous, but I am a fan of those glasses there.
[quote]super saiyan wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]Mtag666 wrote:
And just to clarify when steely asked why he though overbulking caused a stagnant total I’m sort of curious too. [/quote]
I’m not trying to be provocative by asking that, btw. I think it’s a legit ask for a follow up to the claim.
[/quote]
Well you did put overbulking in quotes, which makes it a little more provocative than you may have intended. I dont want to speak for det, but to me its pretty clear that the extra bulk he put on did not lead to the added strength that he thought it would. Fact is he is lighter and stronger. How?[/quote]
It’s not clear that it’s necessarily the result of ‘overbulking’. The quotes are meant to stress the point and the fact that it’s his word.
We all have n=1 stories from our own experiences. I’m 15-20# lighter than I was 2 years ago (275->255-260). I put 30 lbs or so on my bench and increased my squat at a lighter weight, but those PR’s weren’t blocked because I ‘overbulked’- it’s because I cleaned up my diet a little and started training harder and whatever I did was what was needed to break the plateau. Maybe the extra conditioning helped my body utilize nutrients better and aided recovery.
Don’t know.
I didn’t diet down in the sense of cut calories for the sake of doing it, it just happened because those calories were better quality and I worked harder. I’m not even sure I cut any calories-- maybe in the effective sense that I worked harder.
I could have done the same and purposely upped the calories and I still would have gotten stronger no doubt in my mind, maybe even hit PR’s faster.
Don’t know.
I’m just curious as to why Det’s “overbulking” was somehow the actual cause of stagnation rather than just the manifestation of lacking somewhere else like enough protein or not training as hard as needed to progress.
Of course I have to state this explicitly before the trolls latch on–> I’m not saying he didn’t train hard, obviously he’s a monster, but everyone stagnates at some point and God only knows what it takes for anyone to break that plateau.
The flip side is there are decades of history of Powerlifters who ate themselves to bigger PR’s, hence the phrase “He looks like a powerlifter” and “Not.Sure.If.Fat.Or.Just.Powerlifter”
[/quote]
Blessed post
From the Church of Full House[/quote]
Teach me oh Magi of the Blessed best postus…I must know.
[quote]detazathoth wrote:
I didn’t put the brakes on and dropped and came back up, nor was my goal suppose to be more competitive in a lower weight class, I’ve never been a 242er, and my frame is built for 220, which is what I am.
[/quote]
Sorry, that’s how I read this:
[quote] Stronghold wrote:
After reaching the 220lb mark, he realized he was barely competetive as a 198, and dropped about 30 lbs of worthless weight without much detriment to his strength. Over the course of about 3 years, he’s put 25 lbs back on by gaining and leaning out in a slow, cyclical manner.
[/quote]
OK, I’ve had enough parsing replies-- I really glean no entertainment out of e-dick-swordfighting. In the end, you done good, kid, so, congrats, dude. I hope you continue to make great gains.
