My Apologies

[ZEB]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ZEB wrote:
When I don’t have the experience in one particular area I listen, read and learn. I don’t try to act like I am an expert in the field.

That is what we are talking about. Try it sometime.

That isn’t what we are talking about. We are talking about why a picture of a naked woman with no genitalia visible and one who is in no sexual position AT ALL is offensive to anyone or “obscene” for a child to see. What makes anyone see anything more than a beautiful woman who happens to not have clothes on?[/quote]

I thought I was pretty clear on that several posts back. Here it comes again, don’t miss it:

It’s not the medias job to prompt a discussion on sexuality!

Did you catch it?

To make more of it than that speaks only of your own personal biases that you will no doubt pass on to your kids. The question is, why are parents teaching kids that nudity itself is wrong even when sex is not in the picture? Why not explain the situation to your kid and move right along?

See…you just are not following along at all, I’m sorry to say.

Again, no one is saying it’s “wrong.” We as parents are saying "we want to pick the time and place to have a talk on sexuality, not prompted by the media.

Did you catch it this time?

They will adopt your own views of what is right and wrong and if a woman’s body alone is viewed as a negative, have you even considered what this has the potential to do with how they see themselves?

A womans body as negative? Shessh…you really have to have some kids of your own prof.

Never said a womans body is negative-Just want to talk about it at my own time and pleasure not when the media decides the time and place.

With me now?

[quote]Very poor analogy. My analogy was one similar to the situation. You need to learn various skills in order to do it properly.

Hell, are YOU an expert on raising kids? Your kids are perfect? They have never made a mistake, huh? Bullshit.[/quote]

And where did I say that?

Prof you really are sort of making things up huh?

Read what I wrote-You learn various skills by doing it-

Do those skills make you an expert? No of course not. But you have ZERO skills as a parent because you have never been one!

It’s about relationships. How would you feel if your little brother tried to tell you all abour dating? He has never been on a date but hey, he read a lot of books and knows soooo much.

That’s similar.

[quote]And the media makes it more challenging by making parenting that much more difficult by acting with little or no restraint, as you will see one day.

Which means it is not your job to simply shield your kid from ALL things you see as inappropriate but to teach them how to react in situations like that themselves as well. It would seem to me that an oversheltered child would be LEAST prepared to handle these situations once out on their own. Again, what makes a nude woman wrong?[/quote]

You are just funny now.

It’s about teaching them when I want to do it now when some nut on a computer wants to do it (not picking on anyone in particular) or a cable channel wants to do it.

It’s not about shielding them-It’s about trying ever so hard to make sure that they do not become what many kids have already become…and that is obsessed with sex and violence.

Would you like some stats? Yea I think you would:

“Watching Sex on Television Predicts Adolescent Initiation of Sexual Behavior.”

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/114/3/e280

You see it goes beyond talking to them about it. If they are constantly bombarded with sexual scenes, they want to try it at an earlier age.

Please have a child one day (A daughter I hope) and come back and talk to me.

[quote]Actually, that very statement makes you appear even more clueless than I originally thought. If you think that being around friends (or family)children is like raising your own children…well that’s just funny stuff!

All parents on board at T-Nation will get a good belly laugh when they read it trust me.

Does this supposedly make you look more informed or more intelligent? Do you know what I have been exposed to? if not, how can you judge me as ill-informed?[/quote]

You left out the statement I was referring to. You said something on the order that you have friends or relatives who have children. Therefore, you know abou raising kids.

You see that was funny stuff!

That statement makes you look foolish on this particular subject. It’s easy to see that you are ill informed, matters not what you have been through. It’s obvious by your posts that when it comes to raising a child you are clueless.

But so was I when I was childless!

I thought I knew it all, not unlike yourself. I found out. so will you.

[ZEB]

[quote]SWR-1222D wrote:
Professor X wrote:
malonetd wrote:
ZEB wrote:

You don’t always need first hand experience in a subject matter to criticze, offer advice, and/or make responsible decisions regarding said subject matter.

Hell, if that were actually the case, nearly EVERYONE posting in the politics forum needs to quit immediately and turn off their computers. Zeb, of course, should never log into the Sex forum as well.

Yes Professor X, the argument that having kids will completely change your mind, and you will be enlightened is complete bull shit.

I completely agree with malonetd and your posts on this thread, and most of your posts on this site. I have I child so maybe in Zeb’s eyes I have some credibility on the issue.

I also know of some people with 5 times as many kids as I have, with much lower standards and morals than I have. And I also know of some people with no children who think the same way you (Zeb) do about shielding the children that they plan to have from nudity.

Why does the amount of kids one has matter?

Oh, and Zeb, I’m a registered Republican if that helps you to judge me better. I also have some predominately ‘conservative’ views and some predominately ‘liberal’ views. Shocking, I know.[/quote]

I already read your views on homosexual marriage on another thread. I’m just as impressed with those views as I am with this masterpiece.

Keep up the great work!

[ZEB]

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
ZEB wrote:

It’s not that the are going to be “Offended.” That is actually pretty funny prof…(shaking head).

It has to do with control over what your kids see at a certain age. I know you don’t get it…

Well, hold on to your hat, ZEB, but I’ve heard that a lot of kids see wet pussy and a hell of a lot of boob on the very day they are born! What’s more, their parents let them, and even encourage it!!! Thank god, caesarian section and soy formula in a bottle seem to be gradually putting an end to this kind of irresponsible immorality. ;)[/quote]

That was just sort of nutty…

[ZEB]

[quote]cycomiko wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Truer words never spoken. It is the same argument I have with many about “porn”. Kids wouldn’t find a naked body offensive if they were never taught to find it offensive.

This is the type of foolish statement which proves you to be inexperienced in these matters.

It’s not that the are going to be “Offended.” That is actually pretty funny prof…(shaking head).

It has to do with control over what your kids see at a certain age. I know you don’t get it…

Again…have some kids and come back and talk to me.

many people have kids, doesnt stop you being an idiot.
[/quote]

And your many posts on this site proves the fact that you are an idiot!

[ZEB]

[quote]RoadWarrior wrote:
ZEB wrote:
How many kids do you have mr know it all? None I suspect.

Does this mean having never been President, your not going to vote?

[/quote]

Do you get your advice on dating from your little 12 year old brother? He’s a bright kid…why not?

[AJL_1240]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I already read your views on homosexual marriage on another thread. I’m just as impressed with those views as I am with this masterpiece.

Keep up the great work!
[/quote]

Thank you.
You know, it really takes some guts to admit when you were wrong, and that you’re starting to open your mind and make a change for the better.

I admire that.

[Professor_X]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I thought I was pretty clear on that several posts back. Here it comes again, don’t miss it:

It’s not the medias job to prompt a discussion on sexuality!

Did you catch it?[/quote]

The media? What the hell are you talking about? This is about one naked picture, not all of the media. What the hell is your problem with understanding this?

[quote]

See…you just are not following along at all, I’m sorry to say.

Again, no one is saying it’s “wrong.” We as parents are saying "we want to pick the time and place to have a talk on sexuality, not prompted by the media.

Did you catch it this time?[/quote]

So? The world doesn’t work like that! Are you going to pick and choose when you want to have a car accident as well? Issues come up spontaneously so you deal with them. Where is this magical world where issues only pop up when you want them to? Maybe you and your family should move to some deserted island so you can control every aspect of culture that they get exposed to. I am sure they will be wonderful little robots.

[quote]

A womans body as negative? Shessh…you really have to have some kids of your own prof.

Never said a womans body is negative-Just want to talk about it at my own time and pleasure not when the media decides the time and place.

With me now?[/quote]

Read above. This issue was about that one picture, not all of the media. A picture of a naked woman with no sex organs exposed prompted this discussion. The problem is, you seem to have no argument unless taken out of the arena of the issue of simple nudity.

[quote]
It’s about relationships. How would you feel if your little brother tried to tell you all abour dating? He has never been on a date but hey, he read a lot of books and knows soooo much.

That’s similar.[/quote]

Again, do you know the experiences I have had? You only know that I don’t have kids of my own. Anything else is speculation.

[quote]
It’s about teaching them when I want to do it now when some nut on a computer wants to do it (not picking on anyone in particular) or a cable channel wants to do it.[/quote]

Where in all of life do life lessons only pop up when you WANT to discuss them?

[Tech9]

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Hey Tech: I think your Guerre des Etoiles box is a bit foutu. The Taun Tauns did not appear in Le Retour du Jedi, but in L’Empire Contre-Attaque!

Merde!

[/quote]

They were in a brief scene in “Jedi” in the…uh…“Special Edition” Lucas did a few years ago.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

[BigRagoo]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Really, only over the past 30 years or so has it gone over the edge.

I agree, but why does the media have to make it so much more difficult-They didn’t used to.

Are we (as parents) tolerating things that parents in past years wouldn’t think of tolerating?

Very well said!
[/quote]

Yes, the past thirty years has seen a major swing towards more provocative advertising and movie making. It’s because they keep pushing the envelope and haven’t been met with enough force to curb it. It’s difficult today because of all teh media outlets there are today. And we are tolerating things that weren’t tolerated in the past partly because we have become desensitized to a lot of the sexuality that is put up. It’s our fault as well as advertisers and movie makers

[Professor_X]

[quote]BIGRAGOO wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Really, only over the past 30 years or so has it gone over the edge.

I agree, but why does the media have to make it so much more difficult-They didn’t used to.

Are we (as parents) tolerating things that parents in past years wouldn’t think of tolerating?

Very well said!

Yes, the past thirty years has seen a major swing towards more provocative advertising and movie making. It’s because they keep pushing the envelope and haven’t been met with enough force to curb it. It’s difficult today because of all teh media outlets there are today. And we are tolerating things that weren’t tolerated in the past partly because we have become desensitized to a lot of the sexuality that is put up. It’s our fault as well as advertisers and movie makers[/quote]

…but 30 years ago, people were saying the same things. The only people who truly want things to go back to the way they were 30 years ago are those who were adults 30 years ago and are extremely “restrictive” in personality. I know I personally would find 1975 tv pretty damn boring and unsatisfying. I always wonder why turning off your tv is not an option to those who wish to control how the rest of the country chooses its freedom of expression.

[hardcore_balla]

Desensitized? Putting up with more than we would have in the past?

Seriously. My grandpa screwed more women before he met my grandma than I probably ever will by the time I meet my future wife. But that was in a time when sex wasn’t a good thing right? Now that it is that means everyman ought to have women flinging there slutty bodies at them. Let me check that isn’t happening to everyman.

Zeb that article about seeing sex making someone younger want to have it is bullshit. I can put together a study that says the exact opposite. That is just propoganda for parents.
Sex is not bad. Sex in the media is not bad. So you are watching tv with your kids and they goto bed at 9 or so. Isn’t that when the FCC has the most restriction on what can be said on TV? If you are worried about cusswords, well get rid of HBO, skinemax and the movie channel. Besides even some of the most popular movies have sexual connotations that most kids don’t get (see shrek, shrek II, toy story and toy story II). So those movies are inappropriate?

Puhlease. You are in fact the one I feel sorry for. Raise your daughter or son to think nudity is bad and oppress their knowledge by being overprotective. You come back to me in 15 years and we’ll see if your kid has done drugs, had sex, or gosh is pregnant.

I still maintain that if you teach them values and morals and acknowledge the situations as they arise (not when you decide they need to arise, because that is horseshit) you will have a well balanced child. The media will always be there pushing the edge, it is up to you to show your child that teetering on the edge isn’t where they want to be.

[RoadWarrior]

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Oh and don’t tell me about raising kids, I raised a handful with several wives and girlfriends and none of them have any sexual problems and oh yeah, they don’t smoke.

Outstanding! You know, Road Warrior, you are the first man I’ve encountered outside of a Muslim country…or Utah…who has his own harem. I suppose you must be a devoted user of Alpha Male.

I’m curious, though: do all of your wives and girlfriends more or less get along with each other, or do you constantly have to keep them from clawing each other’s eyes out?

;)[/quote]

I’m 53 and I have been married three times due to my inability to stay home. Back in the 70’s it was almost impossible to meet a woman that wasn’t a single mother.

[RoadWarrior]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
RoadWarrior wrote:
ZEB wrote:
How many kids do you have mr know it all? None I suspect.

Does this mean having never been President, your not going to vote?

Do you get your advice on dating from your little 12 year old brother? He’s a bright kid…why not?

[/quote]

Interesting that I ask a politcal question (even if nonsensical) and you return with thoughts of child abuse and incest.

[malonetd]

[quote]Professor X stated:
Many of us have been very close to those who were raising kids and are not as clueless as some of you seem to think.[/quote]

Then…[quote]
Zeb replied:
Actually, that very statement makes you appear even more clueless than I originally thought. If you think that being around friends (or family)children is like raising your own children…well that’s just funny stuff! :)[/quote]

And then…

[quote]JPBear replied:
Save that statement so you can re-read it one day. You’ll eventually see why it is funny.[/quote]

I don’t know how or why you think it is such a stretch to think that someone without children can have have any idea what it is like to raise children. I would venture to say that the eldest child of a single parent family might have an awfully good idea of what goes into raising kids, especially if there is a large age gap between the children.

There are many instances where someone without children gains much knowledge and experience in raising kids. The experience and knowledge can be widely varied, too. It can be gained through simple babysitting all the way to legal guardianships.

And before you jump on the babysitting comment, know that watching young children for a few days every week will give you some experience and knowledge regarding kids. Does it teach you everything? No, I never said that and never will. My point is simply that you do not need your own children to have experience and knowledge. Hell, having your own children doesn’t even give you all the answers.

[ZEB]

[quote]SWR-1222D wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I already read your views on homosexual marriage on another thread. I’m just as impressed with those views as I am with this masterpiece.

Keep up the great work!

Thank you.
You know, it really takes some guts to admit when you were wrong, and that you’re starting to open your mind and make a change for the better.

I admire that.[/quote]

Thank you I wish I could say the same for you my friend!

[ZEB]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ZEB wrote:

Did you catch it?

The media? What the hell are you talking about? This is about one naked picture, not all of the media. What the hell is your problem with understanding this?[/quote]

I was speaking to the broader problem of the media’s lack of restraint. That “one naked picture” is simply symptomatic of a larger problem that faces parents today.

So? The world doesn’t work like that! Are you going to pick and choose when you want to have a car accident as well?

I like that example that you gave. The stuff that Hollywood tries to cram down our childrens throats is tantamount to a car accident.

Good job on that one prof!

Issues come up spontaneously so you deal with them. Where is this magical world where issues only pop up when you want them to?

You are once again showing your youth and lack of experience. I never asked for a magic world. However, there was a time when you could switch on the TV and actually leave the room with your small child in it. Drive down the street and not have a concern about your 6 year old looking at a bill board. Turn the radio station without being assaulted with profanity with your 7 year old daughter sitting next to you.

All things that you won’t understand until you have kids. And even then…

[quote]It’s about relationships. How would you feel if your little brother tried to tell you all abour dating? He has never been on a date but hey, he read a lot of books and knows soooo much.

That’s similar.

Again, do you know the experiences I have had? You only know that I don’t have kids of my own. Anything else is speculation.[/quote]

You should try to answer the question:

“How would you feel if your little brother tried to tell you all about dating? He has never been on a date but hey, he read a lot of books and knows soooo much.”

You are like that little guy to me and the many others on this site who have been and are going through parenting. Your views (from what I’ve read) are naive. You are certainly entitiled to your opinion, but don’t expect anyone who has actually raised children to stand up and applaud your nonsense.

[quote]Where in all of life do life lessons only pop up when you WANT to discuss them?
[/quote]

Since then we (as parents) should throw our collective hands up into the air and say forget it?

Not talking about all of lifes lessons. There are plenty of things (most) that pop up with children that blind side us as parents. I’m simply looking for this most important one to be dictated by the parents and not Hollywood.

And most people agree with me prof:

“In a national survey by Public Agenda (“Parents feel they?re failing to teach values,” USA TODAY, 10/30/02), about 90% [of parents] say TV programs are getting worse every year because of bad language and adult themes in shows that air from 8 to 10 p.m.”

90%…that would be millions of parents huh?

I guess if you were a parent you might feel differently. Then again you could be in the 10% who feel everything is just fine.

[ZEB]

[quote]BIGRAGOO wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Really, only over the past 30 years or so has it gone over the edge.

I agree, but why does the media have to make it so much more difficult-They didn’t used to.

Are we (as parents) tolerating things that parents in past years wouldn’t think of tolerating?

Very well said!

Yes, the past thirty years has seen a major swing towards more provocative advertising and movie making. It’s because they keep pushing the envelope and haven’t been met with enough force to curb it. It’s difficult today because of all teh media outlets there are today. And we are tolerating things that weren’t tolerated in the past partly because we have become desensitized to a lot of the sexuality that is put up. It’s our fault as well as advertisers and movie makers[/quote]

That was very well put!

[ZEB]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
BIGRAGOO wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Really, only over the past 30 years or so has it gone over the edge.

I agree, but why does the media have to make it so much more difficult-They didn’t used to.

Are we (as parents) tolerating things that parents in past years wouldn’t think of tolerating?

Very well said!

Yes, the past thirty years has seen a major swing towards more provocative advertising and movie making. It’s because they keep pushing the envelope and haven’t been met with enough force to curb it. It’s difficult today because of all teh media outlets there are today. And we are tolerating things that weren’t tolerated in the past partly because we have become desensitized to a lot of the sexuality that is put up. It’s our fault as well as advertisers and movie makers

…but 30 years ago, people were saying the same things.[/quote]

People may have complained in the 1970’s about profanity on television. However, that doesn’t mean that it has not gotten worse!

According to a one study:

"In a sample of programming from the 2001-2002 TV season, sexual content appeared in 64% of all TV programs. Those programs with sexually related material had an average of 4.4 scenes per hour. Talk of sex is more frequent (61%) vs. overt portrayals (32%). 1 out of every 7 programs includes a portrayal of sexual intercourse."

At what point do we realize that children are being adversely affected by this sort of television?

A study of 1792 adolescents ages 12-17 showed that watching sex on TV influences teens to have sex. Youths who watched more sexual content where more likely to initiate intercourse and progress to more advanced noncoital sexual activities in the year following the beginning of the study.

Youths in the 90th percentile of TV sex viewing had a predicted probability of intercourse initiation that was approximately double that of youths in the 10th percentile. Basically, kids with higher exposure to sex on TV were almost twice as likely than kids with lower exposure to initiate sexual intercourse. - Study Conducted by RAND and published in the September 2004 issue of Pediatrics.

If you think it’s cool for kids in that age bracket to have sex thejn you have a bigger problem that simply losing an Internet debate.

Start with STD’s and work your over to unwanted pregnancy.

But then not being a parent, you are mostl likely not as concerned.

The only people who truly want things to go back to the way they were 30 years ago are those who were adults 30 years ago and are extremely “restrictive” in personality. I know I personally would find 1975 tv pretty damn boring and unsatisfying."

Those are the only people? LOL, those people and also PARENTS, niether of which describes YOU!

I always wonder why turning off your tv is not an option to those who wish to control how the rest of the country chooses its freedom of expression.

Your answer is selfish and not unexpected. You want the parents to work harder to protect their young children from crap that the Hollywood sells on the tube.

While you indulge…

What about some sort of regulation which states that any “R” type rated program should be shown after a certain hour?

Is if fair for kids across America to have to either do without or watch something inappropriate so that you can veiw this stuff at any hour of the day?

Isn’t freedom supposed to have some self imposed restrictions? Otherwise, why not show X rated programs at any time during the day free of charge?

[ZEB]

[quote]hardcore_balla wrote:
Desensitized? Putting up with more than we would have in the past?

Seriously. My grandpa screwed more women before he met my grandma than I probably ever will by the time I meet my future wife.[/quote] And that proves what? But that was in a time when sex wasn’t a good thing right? Now that it is that means everyman ought to have women flinging there slutty bodies at them. Let me check that isn’t happening to everyman. [/quote]

That was sort of simplistic statement that you just made. Are trying to claim that there are LESS unwanted pregnancy’s? Less abortion? Less teen pregnancy’s?

I’ll give you a change to retract that before I post some stats. Deal?

Zeb that article about seeing sex making someone younger want to have it is bullshit. I can put together a study that says the exact opposite. That is just propoganda for parents.

Oh my…more simplistic statements.

The following study was done by the RAND corporation for a pediatric magazine. No hidden agenda. They are asking the kids themselves. Do you suppose all of the kids are lying? No I don’t think so.

"A study of 1792 adolescents ages 12-17 showed that watching sex on TV influences teens to have sex. Youths who watched more sexual content where more likely to initiate intercourse and progress to more advanced noncoital sexual activities in the year following the beginning of the study.

Youths in the 90th percentile of TV sex viewing had a predicted probability of intercourse initiation that was approximately double that of youths in the 10th percentile. Basically, kids with higher exposure to sex on TV were almost twice as likely than kids with lower exposure to initiate sexual intercourse. - Study Conducted by RAND and published in the September 2004 issue of Pediatrics."

Now why don’t you post a study which demonstrates the opposite of this study. Something on the order of when kids watch sex on TV they are LESS likely to have sex.

Yea…show me that study.

Sex is not bad.

Well we agree on that. Let’s make a list of all of the things that are not bad

1. Guns
2. Alcohol
3. Cars

Along with sex they all have at least one thing in common: in the hands of a child they can be…um BAD!

Sex in the media is not bad.

Another unqualified statement. Sex in the media at certain hours is not bad is a much more accurate statement.

So you are watching tv with your kids and they goto bed at 9 or so. Isn’t that when the FCC has the most restriction on what can be said on TV? If you are worried about cusswords, well get rid of HBO, skinemax and the movie channel. Besides even some of the most popular movies have sexual connotations that most kids don’t get (see shrek, shrek II, toy story and toy story II). So those movies are inappropriate?

Okay, I’m going to have to let you slide again until you get a chance to review your facts.

Tell me you are not stating that there is nothing wrong with the TV programming BEFORE 9:00 pm

Puhlease. You are in fact the one I feel sorry for. Raise your daughter or son to think nudity is bad and oppress their knowledge by being overprotective.

Try to at least show a minimal amount of reading comprehension.

I never stated that nudity is bad.

My claim (pay attention now) is that constant nudity (profanity, violence etc.) in the media influences children in a negative way. And that there is far too much of it on TV in the movies etc.

Got it?

I still maintain that if you teach them values and morals and acknowledge the situations as they arise (not when you decide they need to arise, because that is horseshit) you will have a well balanced child.

Do tell…is that how you are currently raising your children?

I’m sincerely interested.

[quote]The media will always be there pushing the edge, it is up to you to show your child that teetering on the edge isn’t where they want to be.
[/quote]

It’s up to a parent to do a good job raising their children. It’s up to society to at least give the parents a fighting chance to do this. When a child is barraged by sex, violence, drug use etc. that undermines the already difficult job of the parent.

How old are your children by the way?

[ZEB]

[quote]RoadWarrior wrote:
ZEB wrote:
RoadWarrior wrote:
ZEB wrote:
How many kids do you have mr know it all? None I suspect.

Does this mean having never been President, your not going to vote?

Do you get your advice on dating from your little 12 year old brother? He’s a bright kid…why not?

Interesting that I ask a politcal question (even if nonsensical) and you return with thoughts of child abuse and incest.

[/quote]

The analogy was supposed to remind those who think they know all about parenting without ever having done it that they are clueless (for the most part).

Sorry you walked away with that bizarre interpretation. But given where we are I’m not surprised…