Muslims Practicing Polygamy in the US

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
My girlfriend’s family is Muslim. She recently was baptized into my own faith, Anglo-catholicism. Of course, they are not aware of this change of affairs. They are singularly unwilling to discuss Islam. When they respond at all to my respectful queries - even to the point of prostrating myself - they are invariably vague, and sometimes even outright hostile. [/quote]

In such environment, it’s little wonder why she sought a new faith then.

Bummer! It’s a numbers game, and having over billion proclaimed followers means the distribution is normal. I empathize with your conundrum, and in light of the circumstances, you’re keeping a pretty healthy perspective about it.

Out of curiosity, what’s their background?

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Chushin wrote:
But you’re ignoring the point of my post. This “straight talker” says very clearly that parts of Islam sanction such things as rubbing your penis between the thighs of an INFANT. Apparently, the “prophet” did such with his child bride, as well?

I don’t give a damn what culture, that is truly sick. Any guy doing that needs to meet up with a sharp sword.

Does Islam truly say this? Evil, pure evil.

[/quote]

No it does not say that. If you had read the posts me or some of the other posters have respondeded with to this particular issue, you would have seen that.

In a nutshell:
That shit happens in Bahrain. It is WRONG. They (Islam “clerics” - as they claim themselves to be) enforce this upon their own people, and practice it, citing it as a part of Islam. But IN THAT SAME VIDEO where this quote was taken from and twisted around, the Muslim reporter says that these actions ARE FORBIDDEN in the Islamic Shari’ah. It is WRONG, she says it is WRONG, but in Bahrain it happens due to corrupt officials.

[quote]Chushin wrote:
mafzal4 wrote:
She actually confronts the reporter when he says that this is Islamic Law, Islamic Shar’iah - and refutes it by clearly stating that it is NOT Islamic Shar’iah.

The woman in the video IS a muslim, she is saying that the actions of these “clerics” is wrong - and it is.

So, the (assumedly) Muslim reporter and these Muslim clerics say that such things ARE Islam. My understanding is that widely-respected (in the Muslim world) folks like Khomenni fall in this camp as well.

But you and Lixy say they are “wrong.”

If Islam’s “leaders” and an assumedly reasonably well-to-do reporter (and, apparently, many others) are SO misinformed on such IMPORTANT issues, where does that leave non-Muslims?

Whom do we believe? How can we possibly be faulted for our “biases” or misinformation? Isn’t the behavior we witness just cause for concern?

No matter how you look at it, Islam appears to be a mess. Either it contains very despicable teachings, or it is made up of misinformed fools.

[/quote]

The reporter is not wrong, she is right. Re-read those comments please. The Bahrain Islamic “clerics” are the ones who are wrong.

I wholeheartedly agree with your confusion. It is sad. It is tragic. That is why there is widespread ignorance about Islam. All over the world, Muslims in high ranking positions use their power in an Un-Islamic and Un-Just way, and it is simply sad to see that - because it leaves a lot of non-believers of the Islamic faith confused. I hope some of my comments here have fixed some of that confusion.

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Chushin wrote:

So, the (assumedly) Muslim reporter and these Muslim clerics say that such things ARE Islam. My understanding is that widely-respected (in the Muslim world) folks like Khomenni fall in this camp as well.

But you and Lixy say they are “wrong.”

If Islam’s “leaders” and an assumedly reasonably well-to-do reporter (and, apparently, many others) are SO misinformed on such IMPORTANT issues, where does that leave non-Muslims?

Whom do we believe? How can we possibly be faulted for our “biases” or misinformation? Isn’t the behavior we witness just cause for concern?

I have to agree with this & have the exact same questions. [/quote]

As is only fair. These are totally fair questions to ask. I’m with you about this all being a mess - it is sad. I just responded to his message right above this one I believe.

[quote]lixy wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
My girlfriend’s family is Muslim. She recently was baptized into my own faith, Anglo-catholicism. Of course, they are not aware of this change of affairs. They are singularly unwilling to discuss Islam. When they respond at all to my respectful queries - even to the point of prostrating myself - they are invariably vague, and sometimes even outright hostile.

In such environment, it’s little wonder why she sought a new faith then.

So, I’m actually surrounded by Muslims and have been for years. But I can’t say I’ve learned all that much from them.

Bummer! It’s a numbers game, and having over billion proclaimed followers means the distribution is normal. I empathize with your conundrum, and in light of the circumstances, you’re keeping a pretty healthy perspective about it.

Out of curiosity, what’s their background?[/quote]

I’m also curious as tho their background. And I agree with all of Lixy’s statements here.

[quote]mafzal4 wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:

So you’ve got proof from some tome written in Saudi Arabia in 1978 that Aisha was at least 14, huh? All those other ahadith about the age of Aisha are lies, then, even though they are considered sahih by Muslims?

You should read this:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10197

It’s truly pathetic to watch Westerners side against their own civilization against people who want to destroy it.

So somebody’s wrong here. Either it’s Tabari, Ibn Kathir, Bukhari, Muslim, Dawud, or these Islamic propagandists you’ve quoted. I know who I believe.

No. It’s calling reading all the damn articles that have been posted, reading them thoroughly, because they ALL state she was nine at the time of marriage. That last post was talking about AFTER marriage, the period when the Islamic time began truly (around 610 AD - I believe the Islamc time began = when the Quran was fully revealed - but I’m not 100% sure), she was 14 when THAT happened. Get your facts straight please.

And yeah, you are one ignorant asshole. People who want to destroy it? Who are those people may I ask? Terrorists? Sure. Muslims? Get the fuck out. No, not Muslims. At least not as a whole. Misguided muslims - sure, but that goes for ANY religion. Terrorists, if they claim themselves to be Muslim, are truly delusional.

[/quote]

On the Islamic Awareness link YOU posted, they said Aisha was 9 when Mohammed deflowered her. It’s right here:

[quote]Due to the apparent ignorance of many Muslims, possibly due to reading “modernist” apologetic literature like that mentioned above, a look at what the authentic sources of Islam say about the age at which cAishah married the Prophet(P) is in order. This way, before we move on to an analysis of the facts, we will first establish what the authentic Islamic facts are.

At this point, it should be mentioned that it is absolutely pointless from an Islamic standpoint to say that the age of cAishah is “not found in the Qur’ân”, since the textual sources of Islam are made up of both the Qur’ân and the Sunnah - and the Qur’ân tells us that. For those wanting (or needing) to learn more about the status of the Sunnah in Islam, please read An Introduction to the Sunnah, by Suhaib Hasan.

Now in regards to what the authentic Islamic sources actually say, it may come as a disappointment to some “modern” and “cultured” Muslims that there are four ahâdîth in Sahîh al-Bukhârî and three ahâdîth in Sahîh Muslim clearly state that cAishah was “nine years old” as the time that her marriage was consummated with the Prophet(P). These ahâdîth, with only slight variation, read as follows:

cAishah, may God be pleased with her, narrated that the Prophet(P) was betrothed (zawaj) to her when she was six years old and he consummated (nikah) his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years.  (Sahîh al-Bukhârî, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64) 

Of the four ahâdîth in Sahîh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from cAishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abû Hishâm (5:236) and one via 'Ursa (7:88). All three of the ahâdîth in Sahîh Muslim have cAishah as a narrator. Additionally, all of the ahâdîth in both books agree that the marriage betrothal contract took place when cAishah was “six years old”, but was not consummated until she was “nine years old”. Additionally, a hadîth with the same text (matn) is reported in Sunan Abû Dâwûd. Needless to say, this evidence is - Islamically speaking - overwhelmingly strong and Muslims who deny it do so only by sacrificing their intellectual honesty, pure faith or both.

The rest of the article contains nothing but ad hominem, tu-quoque, and the “historical context” defense, none of which refute the fact that she was nine when he consummated the marriage.

I got this from YOUR article.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
mafzal4 wrote:

No. It’s calling reading all the damn articles that have been posted, reading them thoroughly, because they ALL state she was nine at the time of marriage. That last post was talking about AFTER marriage, the period when the Islamic time began truly (around 610 AD - I believe the Islamc time began = when the Quran was fully revealed - but I’m not 100% sure), she was 14 when THAT happened. Get your facts straight please.

And yeah, you are one ignorant asshole. People who want to destroy it? Who are those people may I ask? Terrorists? Sure. Muslims? Get the fuck out. No, not Muslims. At least not as a whole. Misguided muslims - sure, but that goes for ANY religion. Terrorists, if they claim themselves to be Muslim, are truly delusional.

PRCalDude wrote:
On the Islamic Awareness link YOU posted, they said Aisha was 9 when Mohammed deflowered her. It’s right here:
Due to the apparent ignorance of many Muslims, possibly due to reading “modernist” apologetic literature like that mentioned above, a look at what the authentic sources of Islam say about the age at which cAishah married the Prophet(P) is in order. This way, before we move on to an analysis of the facts, we will first establish what the authentic Islamic facts are.

I got this from YOUR article.

[/quote]

…I know that. I wrote that in my response. Re-read this line of my earlier response that you quoted.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
mafzal4 wrote:

No. It’s calling reading all the damn articles that have been posted, reading them thoroughly, because they ALL state she was nine at the time of marriage.
[/quote]

[quote]lixy wrote:

Bummer! It’s a numbers game, and having over billion proclaimed followers means the distribution is normal. I empathize with your conundrum, and in light of the circumstances, you’re keeping a pretty healthy perspective about it.

Out of curiosity, what’s their background?[/quote]

She’s from a very prominent Bangladeshi family of poets, judges, & journalists. Many of them live here in the US. They are - without exception - extremely intelligent & highly educated (MIT, Wharton, etc.) people.

My girlfriend says they feel embattled & isolated here in the US. And I feel sorry for them in a way. But it’s also confusing and more than a little disconcerting, which is why I’m trying to understand this stuff.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Natural Nate wrote:
lixy wrote:
Natural Nate wrote:
lixy wrote:
To interpret the non-menstruating part as pre-pubescent/menopausal is not only incoherent, but deliberately perverted. This is scumbag-ery of the lowest kind.

Yes, taking Quranic verses and purposefully twisting their meaning is scumbag-ery of the lowest kind. I honestly can’t think of anything more scumbag-ery than that. Not suicide bombing, not stoning women…but THIS.

You don’t see the irony there?

Well, I suppose it makes it even more delectable.

The delectable irony of sand shithole-loving nutjobs blowing themselves up in public markets for maximum civilian casualties?

Tho one about twisting Quranic verses to justify suicide bombing, you clod![/quote]

Is that what those sand shithole-loving nutjobs do?

Help me out here. I’m wondering what goes through these fuck ups’ minds when they’re about to blow up innocent people in a crowded market. Is it something like: “Those darn guys from the United States invaded and got rid of Saddam…so in retaliation I’ll blow up innocent civilians! Purposely killing women and children who did nothing wrong by blowing them up (along with myself) will obviously cause peace to reign throughout sand shithole land! …I can’t imagine why people think we’re a bunch of sand shithole-loving nutjobs! Sure me and my suicide bomber nutjob friends could try a different tactic like not blowing up as many innocent Iraqi people as possible…but that’s no fun.”

Is this accurate?

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
She’s from a very prominent Bangladeshi family of poets, judges, & journalists. Many of them live here in the US. They are - without exception - extremely intelligent & highly educated (MIT, Wharton, etc.) people. [/quote]

In that case, it’s very unlikely that any of them studied the Quranic original text. They probably had to rely on others to interpret it for them, which might explain their behavior. If they were unwilling to talk about it, then they know squat about it in the first place.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Not that we’ll ever know if my interpretation is right or wrong anyway. That’s why Muslims end theological discussion with the phrase Allahu a’alam (God knows best).[/quote]

So it’s up to the individual to decide whether the Koran promotes suicide bombings? You may say it does not. But that does not mean thousands of others don’t read the text
and take away an entirely different interprtation.

Basically, there is no final word on what is right and wrong when contradictionary text exist, individuals can pick and choose what to believe and what to disgard?

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Basically, there is no final word on what is right and wrong when contradictionary text exist, individuals can pick and choose what to believe and what to disgard?[/quote]

Isn’t that the case with all major religions?

[quote]mafzal4 wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
mafzal4 wrote:

No. It’s calling reading all the damn articles that have been posted, reading them thoroughly, because they ALL state she was nine at the time of marriage.

That last post was talking about AFTER marriage, the period when the Islamic time began truly (around 610 AD - I believe the Islamc time began = when the Quran was fully revealed - but I’m not 100% sure), she was 14 when THAT happened. Get your facts straight please.

And yeah, you are one ignorant asshole. People who want to destroy it? Who are those people may I ask? Terrorists? Sure. Muslims? Get the fuck out. No, not Muslims. At least not as a whole. Misguided muslims - sure, but that goes for ANY religion. Terrorists, if they claim themselves to be Muslim, are truly delusional.

PRCalDude wrote:
On the Islamic Awareness link YOU posted, they said Aisha was 9 when Mohammed deflowered her. It’s right here:

Due to the apparent ignorance of many Muslims, possibly due to reading “modernist” apologetic literature like that mentioned above, a look at what the authentic sources of Islam say about the age at which cAishah married the Prophet(P) is in order. This way, before we move on to an analysis of the facts, we will first establish what the authentic Islamic facts are.

I got this from YOUR article.

…I know that. I wrote that in my response. Re-read this line of my earlier response that you quoted.

PRCalDude wrote:
mafzal4 wrote:

No. It’s calling reading all the damn articles that have been posted, reading them thoroughly, because they ALL state she was nine at the time of marriage.
[/quote]

Oh. My apologies.

The issue between lixy and I was whether Mohammed’s behavior is normative. There are several ayat that state that Mohammed is an excellent example for Muslims and a model of conduct - an uswa hasana. lixy has asserted that the Qur’an unequivocally states that Mohammed was fallible, but provided no evidence for this assertion.

Considering several of the other unsavory things Mohammed did, I’m naturally interested in anything from the Qur’an, Hadith, or Sira that declares that Mohammed is NOT a model of conduct.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Basically, there is no final word on what is right and wrong when contradictionary text exist, individuals can pick and choose what to believe and what to disgard?

Isn’t that the case with all major religions?[/quote]

Not with Christianity.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Not with Christianity. [/quote]

No, seriously.

I admire all the PR the Muslims are doing on this site.

Lixy hates Americans because they pay taxes.

It could also be said that people hate Muslims based on the actions of the terrorists and radicals who have become Islam’s spokespeople.

Wouldn’t your PR campaign be better served trying to change the minds of the people who ARE hijacking your religion, instead of wasting it on people who have seen those people’s actions and are basing their conclusions on that?

Just a thought.

[quote]Chushin wrote:
Not to the extreme that Lixy is describing.[/quote]

Define this extreme. I see a lot of Christians, Hindus and Buddhists behaving very poorly. It just isn’t reported so much in mainstream media.

I mean, seriously, let’s say a “Christian” group who preaches hate based on Bible verses, like the KKK, took out the Dome of the Rock.

I think all of the major Protestant Christian pastors, the Pope, the leaders of the Byzantine Ecumenical group would all express total horror and outrage. This terrorist group would be marginalized, it’s ties to Christianity severed.

Where is this outcry against terrorism from the greater Muslim community?