Muslims Practicing Polygamy in the US

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]mafzal4 wrote:

Do you realize how retarded you sound? That is a blanket statement. It may be true that SOME Arabs view other non-Arabs as beneath them, but that is due to their own prejudice, their own racism, nothing in Islam says that.

In fact, Islam preaches EQUALITY amongst all of its followers. The last speech Prophet Mohammed gave was about how the Muslim community must realize that they are all equal, no Arab is better then a non-Arab, etc.
[/quote]

That is why I threw the question out there. Did I say something in Islam says that?

Hey, maybe it’s just a small group of Muslims who are racist…

82

[quote]lixy wrote:
The concept of clergy is alien to Islam and any self-appointed “expert” that tries to enforce his vision is a hack.
[/quote]

How is the non-muslim world supposed to understand Islam? If we take our understanding from how many so-called Muslim groups behave - we’re told that they are just extremists who don’t understand Islam. Fine - I totally understand that.

But then, who gets to say what Islam is? Knowing a little bit about you, I cannot believe that you think the Qu’ran speaks for itself.

Someone has to interpret and articulate what Islam is. If there are no clergy to do so, how can you say that any particular group is in apostasy?

83

[quote]mafzal4 wrote:

At that time, as it says in the article, that when someone wanted to be forgiven of one of the major crimes (adultery, etc), it was known that this (stoning) was the only way for it to be accomplished - the verse talking about this had already been revealed, so the woman would have known that when she came to the Prophet begging for forgiveness, this is how it would be accomplished.
[/quote]

So Islam frowns upon suicide bombing, but stoning someone to death is ok?

84

[quote]Michael570 wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Is it also true that Arab Muslims do not consider American Black Muslims “real” Muslims.

I heard a Middle Eastern professor (who was originally from Egypt) say something like that.

I think there’s a distinction between Muslims who are black and followers of the Nation of Islam that refer to Wallace Fard as Allah and Elijah Muhammad as Holy Prophet.[/quote]

Right, thanks, that’s what I was talking about.

85

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
mafzal4 wrote:

Do you realize how retarded you sound? That is a blanket statement. It may be true that SOME Arabs view other non-Arabs as beneath them, but that is due to their own prejudice, their own racism, nothing in Islam says that.

In fact, Islam preaches EQUALITY amongst all of its followers. The last speech Prophet Mohammed gave was about how the Muslim community must realize that they are all equal, no Arab is better then a non-Arab, etc.

That is why I threw the question out there. Did I say something in Islam says that?

Hey, maybe it’s just a small group of Muslims who are racist…[/quote]

First off let me apologize for my opening statement in that response. No need for that.

Second, I thought you were stating that Islam itself did state that. Sorry again.

86

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

So Islam frowns upon suicide bombing, but stoning someone to death is ok?
[/quote]

I think you should read up on the cases it was used in historically (not modern times - these current “leaders” in Saudi Arabia etc that use it are very corrupt/don’t follow Islamic law), as that will give you a good picture of when it can be used and why it even came about as a form of punishment. I posted articles about it in this thread in several responses.

87

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
lixy wrote:
The concept of clergy is alien to Islam and any self-appointed “expert” that tries to enforce his vision is a hack.

How is the non-muslim world supposed to understand Islam? If we take our understanding from how many so-called Muslim groups behave - we’re told that they are just extremists who don’t understand Islam. Fine - I totally understand that.

But then, who gets to say what Islam is? Knowing a little bit about you, I cannot believe that you think the Qu’ran speaks for itself.

Someone has to interpret and articulate what Islam is. If there are no clergy to do so, how can you say that any particular group is in apostasy?

[/quote]

I think lixy is referring to the corrupt clergy who do try to enforce their views on people - that is wrong. Just like any other religion, Islam has leaders who we turn to for information, or for answers when we have questions. They are the ones who guide us in issues that we are unsure about.

Problem is, there are many many misguided “leaders” who preach wrong information, and do enforce their way on others. Leaders are the ones that we turn to, but the ones that should not be looked up to are the ones that contradict something that was stated in the Quran or a hadith. Based off of that, most Muslims can decide for themselves which leaders to listen to, and which to not listen to.

If this doesn’t make sense let me know, I’ll try to write more succintly.

88

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
How is the non-muslim world supposed to understand Islam? [/quote]

We do not live in a world divided as “Muslim” and “non-Muslim”. Wherever you are, I am certain that there is a number of Muslims in your community. If you have any interest in understanding Islam, the logical step would be to accost them and inquire about their faith. Chances are that they’ll be glad to talk to you.

Last I checked, God alone had that prerogative. The prophet Mohammed himself had his moment of doubt and pain. Made damn sure that pilate, washed his hands and sealed his fate.

Ooo, who
Ooo, who
Ooo, who

Sorry, got carried away there by this Satan guy.

Anyway, the point was that Mohammed himself made mistakes.

All we can do really, is crack our brains out, use common sense and whatever we can gather from the Quran and other Holy Texts to try and understand the way God would want us to behave.

And that’s where you and I will diverge. The very thing that attracted me to Islam, is the absence of clerical figures. You’d be amazed at the number of people who would rather somebody else does the thinking for them. I call it intellectual laziness.

I only recognize the authority of Allah. That’s the way the Quran describes Islam as far as I can tell. And if you don’t like it, there are plenty of religions around where people get to interpret and articulate things for you.

90

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
lixy wrote:
If you have something not written by a mongoloid (that’s a crack at GKhan!), I’ll be happy to review it for you.

there is a difference between a mongol and a mongoloid.

Just ask the last Caliph of Baghdad. [/quote]

Heh.

91

[quote]lixy wrote:

All we can do really, is crack our brains out, use common sense and whatever we can gather from the Quran and other Holy Texts to try and understand the way God would want us to behave.
[/quote]

[quote]
I only recognize the authority of Allah. [/quote]

Fair enough. But how can you judge one interpretation of the will of Allah over another? How can you say, “this interpretation is consistent with the will of Allah,” but “that interpretation is contrary to His will?” On what basis can you so so?

92

[quote]Chushin wrote:

No matter how you look at it, Islam appears to be a mess. Either it contains very despicable teachings, or it is made up of misinformed fools. [/quote]

Well stated. Either way, something is in need of repair.

93

[quote]lixy wrote:

We do not live in a world divided as “Muslim” and “non-Muslim”. Wherever you are, I am certain that there is a number of Muslims in your community. If you have any interest in understanding Islam, the logical step would be to accost them and inquire about their faith. Chances are that they’ll be glad to talk to you.
[/quote]

My girlfriend’s family is Muslim. She recently was baptized into my own faith, Anglo-catholicism. Of course, they are not aware of this change of affairs. They are singularly unwilling to discuss Islam. When they respond at all to my respectful queries - even to the point of prostrating myself - they are invariably vague, and sometimes even outright hostile.

So, I’m actually surrounded by Muslims and have been for years. But I can’t say I’ve learned all that much from them.

94

[quote]Michael570 wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
It appears we’re settled on the question of whether or not Mo got there before the hair.

If you say so.

“Tabari informs in his treatise on Islamic history that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the pre Islamic period. The pre-Islamic period ended in 610 A.D, a fact that makes Ayesha to be at least 14 years of age at the time of her marriage around 613-624 A.D.”

Tarikhu’l-umam wa’l-mamlu’k, Al-Tabari, Vol 4, Pg 50, Arabic, Dara’l-fikr, Beirut, 1979).

" Ibn Hisham, the historian, reports that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before `Umar ibn al-Khattab which only means that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam close to the time of first revelation (around 610 A.D). This means she must have been at least a young girl at that time. Assuming she was barely 6 or 7 at that time this information puts the age of Ayesha at 20 or more at the time of her marriage with Muhammad. (623-624 A.D.)"

(Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, vol 1, Pg 227 �?? 234 and 295, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh).

“Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani has reported that Fatimah, Muhammad�??s daughter, was five years older than Ayesha and that Fatimah was born when the Prophet was 35 years old. Thus, Ayesha, according to Ibn Hajar, was born when Muhammad was 40 and consummated her marriage when he was 54 or 55. That makes Aysha at least 15-16 years of age.”

(Al-isabah fi tamyizi’l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol 4, Pg 377, Arabic, Maktabatu’l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh,1978)
[/quote]

So you’ve got proof from some tome written in Saudi Arabia in 1978 that Aisha was at least 14, huh? All those other ahadith about the age of Aisha are lies, then, even though they are considered sahih by Muslims?

You should read this:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10197

It’s truly pathetic to watch Westerners side against their own civilization against people who want to destroy it.

BTW, Tabari also had this to say:

So somebody’s wrong here. Either it’s Tabari, Ibn Kathir, Bukhari, Muslim, Dawud, or these Islamic propagandists you’ve quoted. I know who I believe.

95

[quote]Chushin wrote:
But you’re ignoring the point of my post. This “straight talker” says very clearly that parts of Islam sanction such things as rubbing your penis between the thighs of an INFANT. Apparently, the “prophet” did such with his child bride, as well?

[/quote]

I don’t give a damn what culture, that is truly sick. Any guy doing that needs to meet up with a sharp sword.

Does Islam truly say this? Evil, pure evil.

96

[quote]Chushin wrote:
So, the (assumedly) Muslim reporter and these Muslim clerics say that such things ARE Islam. [/quote]

What???

The reporter isn’t supposed to take a stand either way, and he certainly did not assert what Islam is or isn’t. I strongly urge you to watch the video.

And to situate you a bit, Al-Arabiya, the channel on which the interview originally aired, is notorious for its pro-American bias. It was set up by Hariri, MBC and Kuwaiti money.

Do you mean Khomeini? The dead guy? Where “in the Muslim world” is he “widely respected”? Seriously. Besides Iran, Iraq or Syria, I don’t know any other place where people wouldn’t spit on his grave (figuratively). Much less draw wide respect.

[quote]If Islam’s “leaders” and an assumedly reasonably well-to-do reporter (and, apparently, many others) are SO misinformed on such IMPORTANT issues, where does that leave non-Muslims?

Whom do we believe? How can we possibly be faulted for our “biases” or misinformation? Isn’t the behavior we witness just cause for concern? [/quote]

Concern is one thing. Religious discrimination is another.

There is nothing wrong with criticizing actions you don’t agree with. But trying to associate every Muslim with them is condemnable. Some around here refuse to assume good faith from people based on their religion.

I do not feel your “biases” or “misinformation” are worrisome. For most of people have enough brainpower and resources to seek alternative channels of information. On the other hand, some take what they find on a Spencer or Murdoch outlet as gospel and fail to apply any sort of critical thinking. Those are already sold on an idea and are merely looking for ways to reinforce their beliefs (namely, that Muslims are evil). I personally couldn’t care less, as they are currently a negligible minority concentrated in a couple of spots. Whom you should believe is none of my business really as long as you don’t discriminate against me based on my religious beliefs. And I don’t think you do in the first place.

Since we’re on the subject, I looked around the video you posted and the fellow who uploaded it seemed to be involved with an organization called Faith Freedom International as he massively linked to it on the description. Curious to know more about the person doing us the favor of dumping MEMRI videos on YouTube (the video player of the former being Microsoft-friendly), I looked it up. I ended up on one of their star products: WikiIslam.com (which you’d think I’d have heard of, being a cyber-jihadist and all…)

Browsing the site, I couldn’t help but laugh at the Encyclopedia Dramatica feel it gave. Upon closer inspection, and reading the FAQ page, I found that they were dead serious about it. No matter, I was determined to correct what amounted to a lot more than a few misconceptions. It didn’t allow anonymous edits, so I proceeded to create an account which the FAQ assures is not restricted in anyway (check it out!). Oh surprise, it was an invitation-only. Which is highly ironic given that the website was allegedly set up because of the censure allegedly prevalent on other wikis.

Stunned, I look closer and run across the following gems on this highly exclusive place that claims (again, according to their FAQ) is not a hate site,

  • “All Muslims, to the extent that they follow [the Prophet], are terrorists”;
  • “Islam induces hate backed by lies”;
  • “Islam is indeed a satanic cult”;
  • “Muhammad was a terrorist”;
  • “Umma [the community of Muslims] is fascism”.

At that point, it was clear that the person uploading MEMRI videos to YouTube was doing so because of an entirely different reason than cross-platform and open-source friendly.

I contest that conclusion. It is virtually impossible for a set of beliefs that “contains very despicable teachings” at its core, to survive 15 centuries and draw such massive numbers of followers.

Luckily, most people realize that. And once again, I don’t really care about those that don’t, for there is nothing I can say or do to change their minds.

97

[quote]Chushin wrote:

So, the (assumedly) Muslim reporter and these Muslim clerics say that such things ARE Islam. My understanding is that widely-respected (in the Muslim world) folks like Khomenni fall in this camp as well.

But you and Lixy say they are “wrong.”

If Islam’s “leaders” and an assumedly reasonably well-to-do reporter (and, apparently, many others) are SO misinformed on such IMPORTANT issues, where does that leave non-Muslims?

Whom do we believe? How can we possibly be faulted for our “biases” or misinformation? Isn’t the behavior we witness just cause for concern?

[/quote]

I have to agree with this & have the exact same questions.

98

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Fair enough. But how can you judge one interpretation of the will of Allah over another? How can you say, “this interpretation is consistent with the will of Allah,” but “that interpretation is contrary to His will?” On what basis can you so so? [/quote]

I personally consider the Quran to be the closest thing we have to unadulterated words of God. So I usually start there. For the rest, I use common sense.

Not that we’ll ever know if my interpretation is right or wrong anyway. That’s why Muslims end theological discussion with the phrase Allahu a’alam (God knows best).

99

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
My girlfriend’s family is Muslim. She recently was baptized into my own faith, Anglo-catholicism. Of course, they are not aware of this change of affairs. They are singularly unwilling to discuss Islam. When they respond at all to my respectful queries - even to the point of prostrating myself - they are invariably vague, and sometimes even outright hostile.

So, I’m actually surrounded by Muslims and have been for years. But I can’t say I’ve learned all that much from them. [/quote]

It is once again sad to hear that these Muslims are so close-minded and refuse to talk to you. It is NOT something that Islam ordains - it is just how those individual Muslims choose to act. Unfortuneatly this sort of stuff happens with Muslims - with any religion really.

100

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

So you’ve got proof from some tome written in Saudi Arabia in 1978 that Aisha was at least 14, huh? All those other ahadith about the age of Aisha are lies, then, even though they are considered sahih by Muslims?

You should read this:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10197

It’s truly pathetic to watch Westerners side against their own civilization against people who want to destroy it.

So somebody’s wrong here. Either it’s Tabari, Ibn Kathir, Bukhari, Muslim, Dawud, or these Islamic propagandists you’ve quoted. I know who I believe.
[/quote]

No. It’s calling reading all the damn articles that have been posted, reading them thoroughly, because they ALL state she was nine at the time of marriage. That last post was talking about AFTER marriage, the period when the Islamic time began truly (around 610 AD - I believe the Islamc time began = when the Quran was fully revealed - but I’m not 100% sure), she was 14 when THAT happened. Get your facts straight please.

And yeah, you are one ignorant asshole. People who want to destroy it? Who are those people may I ask? Terrorists? Sure. Muslims? Get the fuck out. No, not Muslims. At least not as a whole. Misguided muslims - sure, but that goes for ANY religion. Terrorists, if they claim themselves to be Muslim, are truly delusional.