Muslims Practicing Polygamy in the US

[quote]Michael570 wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Michael570 wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
I dunno. Mohammed married little six year old Aisha and took her virginity at 9 while she was “playing with dolls.” Mohammed, being “al-insan al-kamil,” seems to have legitimized the practice amongst Muslims.

Oral narration written down hundreds of years after the fact is a great source for your argument.

Oh wait, here’s something from the web site you shared…

http://www.quranicteachings.co.uk/ayeshas-age.htm

I guess you didn’t read that article.

Actually, it is. The Qur’an contains no internal historical context. It isn’t understandable without help from the Hadith.

But for the sake of your argument, the Qur’an actually does sanction child marriage:
If you are in doubt concerning those of your wives who have ceased menstruating, know that their waiting period shall be three months. The same shall apply to those who have not yet menstruated. (Surah 65:4)

Here, Allah appears to be envisioning a scenario in which a pre-pubescent woman is not only married, but is being divorced by her husband.

I’m sorry. I seem to have missed where you addressed your claim that Mohammed fucked a little girl.

Or do you just want to skip that minor detail and cherry pick more quotes? And which Hadith are fair play? Sunni? Shi’a? Both?[/quote]

You don’t even know what the Hadith is, do you?

The link the Muslim provided above claims the exact opposite of the previous link:

[quote]Due to the apparent ignorance of many Muslims, possibly due to reading “modernist” apologetic literature like that mentioned above, a look at what the authentic sources of Islam say about the age at which cAishah married the Prophet(P) is in order. This way, before we move on to an analysis of the facts, we will first establish what the authentic Islamic facts are. At this point, it should be mentioned that it is absolutely pointless from an Islamic standpoint to say that the age of cAishah is “not found in the Qur’ân”, since the textual sources of Islam are made up of both the Qur’ân and the Sunnah - and the Qur’ân tells us that. For those wanting (or needing) to learn more about the status of the Sunnah in Islam, please read An Introduction to the Sunnah, by Suhaib Hasan. Now in regards to what the authentic Islamic sources actually say, it may come as a disappointment to some “modern” and “cultured” Muslims that there are four ahâdîth in Sahîh al-Bukhârî and three ahâdîth in Sahîh Muslim clearly state that cAishah was “nine years old” as the time that her marriage was consummated with the Prophet(P). These ahâdîth, with only slight variation, read as follows:

cAishah, may God be pleased with her, narrated that the Prophet(P) was betrothed (zawaj) to her when she was six years old and he consummated (nikah) his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years.  (Sahîh al-Bukhârî, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64) 

Of the four ahâdîth in Sahîh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from cAishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abû Hishâm (5:236) and one via 'Ursa (7:88). All three of the ahâdîth in Sahîh Muslim have cAishah as a narrator. Additionally, all of the ahâdîth in both books agree that the marriage betrothal contract took place when cAishah was “six years old”, but was not consummated until she was “nine years old”. Additionally, a hadîth with the same text (matn) is reported in Sunan Abû Dâwûd. Needless to say, this evidence is - Islamically speaking - overwhelmingly strong and Muslims who deny it do so only by sacrificing their intellectual honesty, pure faith or both.[/quote]

So these guys at Islamic Awareness are claiming that the ahadith narrated by Aisha and Hisham ARE authoritative, and that Aisha was deflowered at the tender young age of nine. I guess they (Muslims) should get their story straight, but Surah 65:4 provides a rather telling clue as to Mohammed’s opinion of child marriage and lends credibility to the ahadith above.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Is it also true that Arab Muslims do not consider American Black Muslims “real” Muslims.

I heard a Middle Eastern professor (who was originally from Egypt) say something like that.[/quote]

I think there’s a distinction between Muslims who are black and followers of the Nation of Islam that refer to Wallace Fard as Allah and Elijah Muhammad as Holy Prophet.

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
mafzal4 wrote:
In fact, Islam preaches EQUALITY amongst all of its followers.

Well, that’s actually a blanket statement too - and one that doesn’t seem to square with all of the divisions within Islam that one hears about in the news. Anyway, does this same vision of equality extend to non-Muslims? [/quote]

How is that a blanket statement? The “divisions within Islam” as you call them, are the remnants of power struggles NOT major ideological rifts within the religion.

Here’s a verse that illustrates equality in Islam,

�??O Mankind! We have created you from a male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honorable of you in the sight of Allah is he who has most righteous among of you. Verily, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.�?? – Quran 49:13

You have to understand that, in the Quran, Islam did not originate from Mohammed. It states clearly and unambiguously that Islam started with Abraham (“Abraham is the one who named you Muslims in the beginning.” – Quran 22:78). It follows that the criteria God judges people by, are their actions - not labels, blood or any such crap.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

You don’t even know what the Hadith is, do you?
[/quote]

Enlighten me, Muslim scholar.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

Soon, we’ll be ‘intolerant’ if we want to kill every scumbag in NAMBLA (and other such Satanists).

[/quote]

Whoa there big boy. I have nothing to do with NAMBLA.

[quote]lixy wrote:
I normally don’t respond to what that sad excuse for a human being writes, but he is taking it too far. I don’t mind him ridiculing himself by telling us that he knows what “Muslims” believe, that there is a grand conspiracy by Muslims to take over the world by lying their ways through, or that any “leader” (read clergy-like figure) has authority over Islam.

But here, he is taking Quranic verses and purposefully twisting their meaning in the most abhorrent way I could ever think of. Anyway aya 65:4 speaks of conditions for remarriage. Islam requires that the woman waits a period of 3 months before remarrying - whether she is menstruating or not. The obvious rationale being that, in 3 months time, the belly will start to show. The specification that the woman be menstruating or not is to discard false positives and false negatives. That is, a woman who didn’t leak is not necessarily pregnant, and the one who did is not necessarily not carrying something in her womb.

To interpret the non-menstruating part as pre-pubescent/menopausal is not only incoherent, but deliberately perverted. This is scumbag-ery of the lowest kind.[/quote]

Didn’t Mohammed have a pre-pubescent wife?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Didn’t Mohammed have a pre-pubescent wife?[/quote]

I don’t know.

[quote]Satan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:

Soon, we’ll be ‘intolerant’ if we want to kill every scumbag in NAMBLA (and other such Satanists).

Whoa there big boy. I have nothing to do with NAMBLA.[/quote]
Heh.

How do we know we can believe you, Satan?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

Didn’t Mohammed have a pre-pubescent wife?[/quote]

he did, and the reasons behind it/more information could be found in one of the articles I linked to from this thread.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Didn’t Mohammed have a pre-pubescent wife?

I don’t know.[/quote]

Give me a break. You guys are not representing your religion well with this stuff.

Your spin of the 3 months waiting period was ridiculous. It pretty clearly stated that it applied not only 3 months after a woman quit having her period (could be age or pregnancy) but also for girls that have not yet menstrated. This clearly means young girls.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Didn’t Mohammed have a pre-pubescent wife?

I don’t know.

Give me a break. [/quote]

Huh? Do you have evidence either way?

People reach puberty at different ages. And there’s hardly any sort of consensus about the age of the marriage.

Suit yourself.

You know better about my religion than me. The bulk of Muslims are not only pedophiliac, but liars. And women converting to Islam are kept in the dark about these abhorrent practices by cunning men.

All hail our new Islamic scholar: Zap!

//done

[quote]Chushin wrote:

Thanks for the commentary.

But you’re ignoring the point of my post. This “straight talker” says very clearly that parts of Islam sanction such things as rubbing your penis between the thighs of an INFANT. Apparently, the “prophet” did such with his child bride, as well?

(The Islam-approved prostitution in the form of “temporary marriages” is worthy of note, too.)

All in all, you completely failed to respond to an honest, knowledgeable woman’s criticisms of parts of Islam.

Yeah, I know; it’s “only” the Shiites, right? Please remind me of how many Shiites there are in the world? [/quote]

What this woman is saying is absolutely correct - these events are horrid and tragic.

But DO NOT make the mistake of thinking that what these “islamic clerics” are doing is something that is encouraged by Islam, it is wrong.

They are WRONG, they are NOT following Islamic law, Islamic Shari’iah. They should be stripped of all their titles/recognition.

Islam is a religion of peace. No part of Islam actually advocates any of the things she mentioned - she is simply stating that this happens in her country of Bahrain. She actually confronts the reporter when he says that this is Islamic Law, Islamic Shar’iah - and refutes it by clearly stating that it is NOT Islamic Shar’iah.

The woman in the video IS a muslim, she is saying that the actions of these “clerics” is wrong - and it is.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Didn’t Mohammed have a pre-pubescent wife?

I don’t know.

Zap Branigan wrote:
Give me a break. You guys are not representing your religion well with this stuff.

[/quote]

Excuse me? Just because he didn’t know the answer to that question? At least he told us that honestly. No one here is an expert on Islam, at least not that I know of.

He didn’t make any claims about being an expert.

It appears we’re settled on the question of whether or not Mo got there before the hair.

Natural Nate, Suicide in the islamic religion means hanging by your next for eternity between the heavens and hell. The suicide bombers arent following “orders.”

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
It appears we’re settled on the question of whether or not Mo got there before the hair.[/quote]

If you say so.

“Tabari informs in his treatise on Islamic history that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the pre Islamic period. The pre-Islamic period ended in 610 A.D, a fact that makes Ayesha to be at least 14 years of age at the time of her marriage around 613-624 A.D.”

Tarikhu’l-umam wa’l-mamlu’k, Al-Tabari, Vol 4, Pg 50, Arabic, Dara’l-fikr, Beirut, 1979).

" Ibn Hisham, the historian, reports that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before `Umar ibn al-Khattab which only means that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam close to the time of first revelation (around 610 A.D). This means she must have been at least a young girl at that time. Assuming she was barely 6 or 7 at that time this information puts the age of Ayesha at 20 or more at the time of her marriage with Muhammad. (623-624 A.D.)"

(Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, vol 1, Pg 227 �?? 234 and 295, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh).

“Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani has reported that Fatimah, Muhammad�??s daughter, was five years older than Ayesha and that Fatimah was born when the Prophet was 35 years old. Thus, Ayesha, according to Ibn Hajar, was born when Muhammad was 40 and consummated her marriage when he was 54 or 55. That makes Aysha at least 15-16 years of age.”

(Al-isabah fi tamyizi’l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol 4, Pg 377, Arabic, Maktabatu’l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh,1978)

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
It appears we’re settled on the question of whether or not Mo got there before the hair.[/quote]

Don’t post such childish comments - grow up.

The issue has been beaten to death, and at this point, if you have any more questions about it, I suggest you go to your local mosque and ask the mosque’s leader/imam about this issue. He should be able to help you much better then we will.

[quote]Chushin wrote:
Thanks for the commentary.

But you’re ignoring the point of my post. This “straight talker” says very clearly that parts of Islam sanction such things as rubbing your penis between the thighs of an INFANT. Apparently, the “prophet” did such with his child bride, as well?

(The Islam-approved prostitution in the form of “temporary marriages” is worthy of note, too.)

All in all, you completely failed to respond to an honest, knowledgeable woman’s criticisms of parts of Islam.

Yeah, I know; it’s “only” the Shiites, right? Please remind me of how many Shiites there are in the world? [/quote]

Not a snowball’s chance in hell! I will question whether you watched the (heavily edited) video.

The woman is Muslim and is defending her view of Islam. She is saying that those aberrations are fabrications, and as such, should be fought and repudiated. And she has a very solid case if you ask me. She’s seriously threatening Al-Kalifa’s status quo and is (apparently) inspiring women all across the region to rise against Wahabism among other things. What is ridiculous, is thinking that she would slam Islam in a Gulf country. That’s the recipe to getting ZERO people behind you. Plenty of majority-Muslim countries have secular movements and have had them for years, but don’t fool yourself into thinking that it’s a reality in Saudi Arabia and its satellites. Those places are light-years away from the rest of the world in terms of secular thought.

If she was saying that the Quran or the prophet condones any of those horrors, she wouldn’t have anything to stand on when claiming to be Muslim. She criticizes the clerics, their interpretations, the king and his dictatorial courts. Which in case you haven’t noticed, I do incessantly. These institutions live in a symbiosis. The clerics twist the Quran to say that the king is ruling by divine right and the king, in return, gives them power to virtually legislate. This has been the case since the first religion, and is in direct and flagrant contradiction with the equality taught in the Quran.

And how can you say that I failed to respond to her criticism? I am 100% in support of everything she said. The concept of clergy is alien to Islam and any self-appointed “expert” that tries to enforce his vision is a hack.

Anyway, here’s the woman’s blog:

http://bahrain-eve.blogspot.com/

[quote]lixy wrote:
If you have something not written by a mongoloid (that’s a crack at GKhan!), I’ll be happy to review it for you.[/quote]

there is a difference between a mongol and a mongoloid.

Just ask the last Caliph of Baghdad.