[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
Screw it.[/quote]
We agree on something. I’m outta here.
[quote]zahmad wrote:
[quote]bcingu wrote:
[quote]zahmad wrote:
The Muslims that will use the Mosque have nothing to do with the September 11 attacks. What’s tactless is blaming them.[/quote]
I did not blame them. But you are misguided if you think that Islamic fundamentalism had nothing to do with 9/11.[/quote]
The people who are responsible for the September 11 attack are not Islamic Fundamentalists, rather they are radicals, criminals, and terrorists. If you hold to the fundamentals of Islam then you would never harm anyone without absolute cause as in the Quran it states that to take the life of one innocent person is equivalent of killing the entire world. Those fools use religion as a scape goat to justify their actions, and have no place in Islam.[/quote]
I’m sure they would just as readily claim that you don’t practice “real” Islam. Muhammad was a pedophile warmonger, and there’s plenty of violence in the Qur’an.
[quote] 2:191
And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
2:192
And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
2:193
Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.
[/quote]
Holy shit those adds are funny. “blow in her face and she will follow you anywhere”! I almost wish tabaco companies were still allowed to advertise.
No doubt in 50 years they will say the same about beer and gambling adds.
[quote]bcingu wrote:
[quote]zahmad wrote:
[quote]bcingu wrote:
[quote]zahmad wrote:
The Muslims that will use the Mosque have nothing to do with the September 11 attacks. What’s tactless is blaming them.[/quote]
I did not blame them. But you are misguided if you think that Islamic fundamentalism had nothing to do with 9/11.[/quote]
The people who are responsible for the September 11 attack are not Islamic Fundamentalists, rather they are radicals, criminals, and terrorists. If you hold to the fundamentals of Islam then you would never harm anyone without absolute cause as in the Quran it states that to take the life of one innocent person is equivalent of killing the entire world. Those fools use religion as a scape goat to justify their actions, and have no place in Islam.[/quote]
I’m sure they would just as readily claim that you don’t practice “real” Islam. Muhammad was a pedophile warmonger, and there’s plenty of violence in the Qur’an.
[quote] 2:191
And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
2:192
And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
2:193
Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.
[/quote][/quote]
All of those statements are qualified as defensive, as in the Quran it says be not the aggressor, for God hates the aggressor. When quoting, people often leave out the previous statements that dictate that. See here:
Any radical would call someone that disagrees a fake Muslim. Fact is that per a Gallup study, 93% of Muslims in the world are against violent Jihad.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]zahmad wrote:
The people who are responsible for the September 11 attack are not Islamic Fundamentalists, rather they are radicals, criminals, and terrorists. If you hold to the fundamentals of Islam then you would never harm anyone without absolute cause as in the Quran it states that to take the life of one innocent person is equivalent of killing the entire world. Those fools use religion as a scape goat to justify their actions, and have no place in Islam.[/quote]
First, of the 100 mosques surveyed, 51% had texts on site rated as severely advocating violence; 30% had texts rated as moderately advocating violence; and 19% had no violent texts at all. Mosques that presented as Sharia adherent were more likely to feature violence-positive texts on site than were their non-Sharia-adherent counterparts. In 84.5% of the mosques, the imam recommended studying violence-positive texts. The leadership at Sharia-adherent mosques was more likely to recommend that a worshipper study violence-positive texts than leadership at non-Sharia-adherent mosques. Fifty-eight percent of the mosques invited guest imams known to promote violent jihad.
http://frontpagemag.com/2011/06/10/sharia-and-violence-in-american-mosques/[/quote]
If you want to trust Front Page Mag then that’s up to you but I can tell you from my personal, honest experience that I have never seen any literature in any Mosque in the United States that proposed violence. I invite you to do the same, as most Mosques welcome visitors. And seriously, if it was that widespread and mainstream do you think that no one would do anything about it?
To answer your previous post, yes I have met Christians, Jews, and Hindus in Muslim dominant countries, including a local Bishop. I think Ponce eluded to Muslims in China, and I met them too, went to the Mosque in Beijing also. I can’t be sure if they were advocating violence cause I don’t speak Chinese, but they were very polite to me 
[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
Please take the horseshit about religious tolerance somewhere else. Perhaps to PWI. Plenty of churches and synagogues in Muslim countries to accommodate those followers, particularly in Lebanon (lots of Christians there), Palestine (there are Palestinian Christians) and Iran (Iranian Armenians are mostly Christian).
There is also a decent sized community of Chinese Muslims in China. Bet some of you didn’t know that.
Yes, I am sure our media just forgot to report this stuff to some of you.
Buddaboy,
Great points about the lack of alternatives. However, I will also say that, unfortunately for these girls (just one?), their country will probably spin this as some affront to their faith, when in fact it is not.
The “spirit” of hijab is to dress modestly and not show off. That’s it. In competition, people are there to watch competitors, and those competitors are not there to show off and attract sexual attention. Of course, such intellectual debate isn’t permitted by propaganda machines.[/quote]
PDL; Thanks, very interesting points.
[quote]buddaboy wrote:
[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
Please take the horseshit about religious tolerance somewhere else. Perhaps to PWI. Plenty of churches and synagogues in Muslim countries to accommodate those followers, particularly in Lebanon (lots of Christians there), Palestine (there are Palestinian Christians) and Iran (Iranian Armenians are mostly Christian).
There is also a decent sized community of Chinese Muslims in China. Bet some of you didn’t know that.
Yes, I am sure our media just forgot to report this stuff to some of you.
Buddaboy,
Great points about the lack of alternatives. However, I will also say that, unfortunately for these girls (just one?), their country will probably spin this as some affront to their faith, when in fact it is not.
The “spirit” of hijab is to dress modestly and not show off. That’s it. In competition, people are there to watch competitors, and those competitors are not there to show off and attract sexual attention. Of course, such intellectual debate isn’t permitted by propaganda machines.[/quote]
PDL; Thanks, very interesting points.[/quote]
And the moneyshot. This topic should never have even strayed into the territory of discrimination against religion, because it doesn’t belong here. It just simply is not religious discrimination.
Discrimination against those who don’t want to follow the long established ruleset of the sport - absolutely. But at whose feet does that fault lay?
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
Moral Beauty Contest sounds good to me. Sign me up.
[/quote]
Sure. Ready to convert to Islam, wear a black tent with eyeslits all the time, have to be accompanied by a male relative whenever you want to go anywhere, get bashed and likely raped by roaming gangs of ‘religious police’ for infractions such as talking to a man, get your genitals mutilated, have your husband sell your 11-year-old daughter to a 60 year-old man for a donkey etc? Sounds great yeah! Morally upright too. Did I mention black people are called ‘Abid’ in Saudi Arabia? It means slave.[/quote]
Hey, calm down.
I was being sarcastic.
Also, historically Muslims erect Mosques in cities and lands they have taken over through war. Once erected they are considered “holy land”. That’s kinda a problem…
Although if we are who we say we are as Americans, we would have no problem with a Mosque anywhere around Ground Zero. But we as a people have feelings and prejudices like any other populace. It’s insulting and inflammatory to build another Mosque any where in Manhattan that’s objected to. Muslims need to see this is rubbing salt in the wound and do the right thing and be sensitive to our feelings if they would like some good will.
Screw all of the Islam vs. Jesus talk. This is just another special snowflake who thinks it should be all about them.
I just wanted to point out that allowing her to compete because of her religion would be discrimination. Everyone has to wear proper attire. What she is asking for is to be treated differently based on her religion. Not changing the rules based on religion is the only non-discriminatory thing to do.
[quote]strangemeadow wrote:
It’s insulting and inflammatory to build another Mosque any where in Manhattan that’s objected to.[/quote]
No, THAT statement is inflammatory. Anywhere in Manhattan that’s objected to? And I take it whatever the objection, it must be valid?
I like that people like you are educated on other cultures by Wikipedia and news of statistically fringe incidents reported by our sensationalist media. Yeah, nothing wrong with that at all!
Why aren’t you a professor of Mid East studies who goes on speaking circuits for his expertise?
If this was such an issue for people like you and those in Manhattan, you should’ve set up a fund that people donate to so you could outbid the Imam and his investors and either bought out the entire fucking building or the space that they wanted to build in.
Unless the Imam specifically says, “This is a victory mosque!” your spinning of the issue is bigoted; you’re preying on people’s emotions and distorting the issue.
If I have money to do something, unless it is ILLEGAL, for you to say I am wrong to do it because I’m inconsiderate of your FEELINGS…is pretty fucking unAmerican and uncapitalist. I wonder how many of you beating your chests over this are the same ones to quickly scream “unconstitutional!” or defend your “right to bear arms” in a 47 page thread in PWI?
Eau De Irony – we can market this for sure. I will even split profits with you.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I just wanted to point out that allowing her to compete because of her religion would be discrimination. Everyone has to wear proper attire. What she is asking for is to be treated differently based on her religion. Not changing the rules based on religion is the only non-discriminatory thing to do.[/quote]
I agree, but this is also why I think, the in the spirit of FAIRNESS, why not have other competitors vote on it and then go based on popular vote?
Let the people speak for themselves.
.
[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I just wanted to point out that allowing her to compete because of her religion would be discrimination. Everyone has to wear proper attire. What she is asking for is to be treated differently based on her religion. Not changing the rules based on religion is the only non-discriminatory thing to do.[/quote]
I agree, but this is also why I think, the in the spirit of FAIRNESS, why not have other competitors vote on it and then go based on popular vote?
Let the people speak for themselves.[/quote]
If they want change the rule, change them. BUT that change goes for everyone.
[quote]JoeGood wrote:
Screw all of the Islam vs. Jesus talk.[/quote]
x2!
[quote]
This is just another special snowflake who thinks it should be all about them.[/quote]
I thought that at first but it ends up she is just a weightlifter who follows this part of her religion and has asked that the rules be reviewed so she can still compete and if the rules aren’t changed she simply won’t compete. From that perspective it doesn’t sound too bad to just ask because you never know the IWF might just agree.
I still don’t think the rules should be changed except I don’t see why she couldn’t keep her hair and neck covered. Safety? The collarless shirt rule I don’t understand.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I just wanted to point out that allowing her to compete because of her religion would be discrimination. Everyone has to wear proper attire. What she is asking for is to be treated differently based on her religion. Not changing the rules based on religion is the only non-discriminatory thing to do.[/quote]
I agree, but this is also why I think, the in the spirit of FAIRNESS, why not have other competitors vote on it and then go based on popular vote?
Let the people speak for themselves.[/quote]
If they want change the rule, change them. BUT that change goes for everyone.[/quote]
1 - All competitors must now be covered
2 - Travel around to meets and find athletes who didn’t know the rule change
3 - Sell ‘Biglifters’ Burkas’ at door for $19.95 + tax
4 - Profit
[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
[quote]strangemeadow wrote:
It’s insulting and inflammatory to build another Mosque any where in Manhattan that’s objected to.[/quote]
No, THAT statement is inflammatory. Anywhere in Manhattan that’s objected to? And I take it whatever the objection, it must be valid?
I like that people like you are educated on other cultures by Wikipedia and news of statistically fringe incidents reported by our sensationalist media. Yeah, nothing wrong with that at all!
Why aren’t you a professor of Mid East studies who goes on speaking circuits for his expertise?
If this was such an issue for people like you and those in Manhattan, you should’ve set up a fund that people donate to so you could outbid the Imam and his investors and either bought out the entire fucking building or the space that they wanted to build in.
Unless the Imam specifically says, “This is a victory mosque!” your spinning of the issue is bigoted; you’re preying on people’s emotions and distorting the issue.
If I have money to do something, unless it is ILLEGAL, for you to say I am wrong to do it because I’m inconsiderate of your FEELINGS…is pretty fucking unAmerican and uncapitalist. I wonder how many of you beating your chests over this are the same ones to quickly scream “unconstitutional!” or defend your “right to bear arms” in a 47 page thread in PWI?
Eau De Irony – we can market this for sure. I will even split profits with you.[/quote]
Dude! I think your interpretation of my statement is really douchey.
- I don’t object to the mosque being built, it’s my impression many do. Muslims don’t threaten me.
- Thanks for the belittling wiki comment. I grabbed ONE thing there about the Boy Scouts, which was correct… I’ve actually done some reading on this subject and think I understand it from a historical perspective. Those who don’t understand history are doomed to repeat it, or something like that.
- I’m not spinning the “victory mosque” issue. It’s just a fact that Muslims build Mosques in places they have conquered historically. Buy huge tracks of land and buildings are just modern ways of conquering.
- A little bit of sensitivity goes a long way on both sides. If people aren’t ready for a Mosque around Ground Zero, don’t push it. It doesn’t need to be there. American should be more accepting, but some, quite loudly, aren’t. I’m not one of them.
- Although I do have guns, I’m pretty sure the founding fathers were referring to muskets and blunderbusses, not semi-automatic weapons sold at gun fairs on the weekend at a high school with free instructions and tools to convert it to fully automatic.
I’m not attacking you or any one, just trying to point out a few of the finer lines involved.
Sheesh…
P.S. I already wear that scent
[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I just wanted to point out that allowing her to compete because of her religion would be discrimination. Everyone has to wear proper attire. What she is asking for is to be treated differently based on her religion. Not changing the rules based on religion is the only non-discriminatory thing to do.[/quote]
I agree, but this is also why I think, the in the spirit of FAIRNESS, why not have other competitors vote on it and then go based on popular vote?
Let the people speak for themselves.[/quote]
Perhaps letting the competitors vote on it is not the best solution. If the competitors are given the opportunity to vote for rule changes, and if they perceived a possible advantage to having the rules change, wouldn’t they vote for that, even if it wasn’t necessarily the best thing for the sport? I know this isn’t the best example/comparison, but if olympic athletes were suddenly allowed to vote whether or not they wanted performance enhancing substances banned, what do you think the outcome would be? Isn’t that part of the point of having an international governing body for a sport? (<- none of that was meant to be rhetorical)
All that being said, I compete in olympic lifting, and I don’t think the rules should be changed.
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I just wanted to point out that allowing her to compete because of her religion would be discrimination. Everyone has to wear proper attire. What she is asking for is to be treated differently based on her religion. Not changing the rules based on religion is the only non-discriminatory thing to do.[/quote]
I agree, but this is also why I think, the in the spirit of FAIRNESS, why not have other competitors vote on it and then go based on popular vote?
Let the people speak for themselves.[/quote]
Perhaps letting the competitors vote on it is not the best solution. If the competitors are given the opportunity to vote for rule changes, and if they perceived a possible advantage to having the rules change, wouldn’t they vote for that, even if it wasn’t necessarily the best thing for the sport? I know this isn’t the best example/comparison, but if olympic athletes were suddenly allowed to vote whether or not they wanted performance enhancing substances banned, what do you think the outcome would be? Isn’t that part of the point of having an international governing body for a sport? (<- none of that was meant to be rhetorical)
All that being said, I compete in olympic lifting, and I don’t think the rules should be changed.[/quote]
Well, I didn’t necessarily mean having the rules changed for everyone, so that everyone’s special requests would be accommodated. I meant the voting to be a show of how many competitors are ok with allowing her to compete with her hijab. That’s it.
If the competitors think it’s “fair” for her to compete with the hijab, then it’s essentially up to her peers–it’s democratic.
It was just a thought.
Strangemeadow,
What was the last “victory mosque” built? When was it built? I’m not testing you; I don’t know, either.
And I’m sure I don’t have to explain that there are MANY antiquated customs (of many religions and cultures) that no longer carry the original message, but are yet carried out for different reasons. Times change.
Check your PM.