[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
You are completely missing the point. Everyone knows Israel treats the Palestinians poorly. Unfortunately the Palestinians give them every excuse to do so.
[/quote]
What are these “excuses” you speak of?
That’s like saying that the American Indians gave the U.S. government every excuse to slaughter them as they were violently driven off their land.
How else should we expect the Palestinians to act?
Dustin
[quote]Dustin wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
You are completely missing the point. Everyone knows Israel treats the Palestinians poorly. Unfortunately the Palestinians give them every excuse to do so.
What are these “excuses” you speak of?
That’s like saying that the American Indians gave the U.S. government every excuse to slaughter them as they were violently driven off their land.
How else should we expect the Palestinians to act?
Dustin[/quote]
Are you truly this obtuse?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Dustin wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
You are completely missing the point. Everyone knows Israel treats the Palestinians poorly. Unfortunately the Palestinians give them every excuse to do so.
What are these “excuses” you speak of?
That’s like saying that the American Indians gave the U.S. government every excuse to slaughter them as they were violently driven off their land.
How else should we expect the Palestinians to act?
Dustin
Are you truly this obtuse?[/quote]
Are you that lazy that you can’t respond to my questions?
The Palestinians try to fight back their oppressor and you label that as an “excuse” for Israel to ratchet up the violence against them.
No one would dream of forcing Jews to live the way the Palestinians are in the Occupied Territories, yet it’s perfectly fine for the Palestinians.
Who’s being obtuse?
Dustin
[quote]Dustin wrote:
No one would dream of forcing Jews to live the way the Palestinians are in the Occupied Territories, yet it’s perfectly fine for the Palestinians.
Who’s being obtuse?
Dustin
[/quote]
I agree the Palestinians shouldn’t have to live like that. Maybe one day, the Palestinians will decide they shouldn’t either. Maybe at which point they will demand the departure of various terrorist groups launching attacks from their lands. Yes, including Hamas whose charter is not constructed with a two state solution in mind, but the actual elimination of Israel.
Until then, Israel can only see see a land that has been used in the past as a launching point for attacks by Arab neighbors. Today, Israel can only imagine a Palestinian state as a chaotic safe haven for suicide bombers, rocket launchers, and Iranian proxies. Gee, I wonder what gives them that idea.
Come on, even you would have to admit the futility of returning land to the Palestinians and respecting them as separate state. A couple weeks of suicide bombing, rocket attacks, and etc., will just have Israel retaking land to deny these guys an uncontested safe haven.
[quote]Dustin wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
You are completely missing the point. Everyone knows Israel treats the Palestinians poorly. Unfortunately the Palestinians give them every excuse to do so.
What are these “excuses” you speak of?
That’s like saying that the American Indians gave the U.S. government every excuse to slaughter them as they were violently driven off their land.
How else should we expect the Palestinians to act?
Dustin[/quote]
Actually, wouldn’t the Jews be more like the Native American in this instance? The Christian and Jews (especially the Jews) having been conquered by the Islamists in the region. When I look at a map featuring the muslim world and the jewish state, it looks more like the jews are the one’s holding onto a sliver of land. Their reservation I suppose.
By the way, are you arguing that non-native American descendants should vacate Canada and the US? If not, why not? Because a certain amount of time has passed by? And if so to that, just how long does Israel need to hold onto this land before it gets grandfathered into their ownership in your eyes?
[quote]Dustin wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
You are completely missing the point. Everyone knows Israel treats the Palestinians poorly. Unfortunately the Palestinians give them every excuse to do so.
What are these “excuses” you speak of?
That’s like saying that the American Indians gave the U.S. government every excuse to slaughter them as they were violently driven off their land.
How else should we expect the Palestinians to act?
Dustin[/quote]
Actually if you look at the history of the land you will find that a lot of the Palestinians were recent immigrants from other parts of the middle east. The reason why they moved into the area was starting in the 1890’s the zionist movement started moving jews back into the area. The Ottomans put a limit on how many jews could move in. So when the economy started to expand because of the jewish immigration and they needed more laobor, arabs were brought in. So a lot of the Palestinians don’t have more than a few decades more time on the land than the Jews.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
lixy wrote:
Bottomline, the only country that has the ability to “pressure” Israel will never do so regardless of the circumstances. People in Gaza learned that fact the hard way.
I think you underestimate the calming influence of the US on Israel. Israel could be engaging in all-out war with Hamas and killing everyone even slightly involved. The US has repeatedly advised Israel not to engage in retaliatory violence. Somewhat hypocritically; I doubt the US government would put up with being slammed by missiles every day. [/quote]
You call it a “calming influence”. I call it handcuffing them.
Take the muzzle off Israel, have the U.S. turn their back for 6 months, and there would be no more Palestinian problem.
The borders would go back to the they were in 1967, and the Arabs would have to take care of their own instead of making it Israel’s problem.
[quote]Dustin wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Dustin wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
You are completely missing the point. Everyone knows Israel treats the Palestinians poorly. Unfortunately the Palestinians give them every excuse to do so.
What are these “excuses” you speak of?
That’s like saying that the American Indians gave the U.S. government every excuse to slaughter them as they were violently driven off their land.
How else should we expect the Palestinians to act?
Dustin
Are you truly this obtuse?
Are you that lazy that you can’t respond to my questions?
The Palestinians try to fight back their oppressor and you label that as an “excuse” for Israel to ratchet up the violence against them.
No one would dream of forcing Jews to live the way the Palestinians are in the Occupied Territories, yet it’s perfectly fine for the Palestinians.
Who’s being obtuse?
Dustin
[/quote]
It looks like you are that obtuse. Every time the Palestinians “fight back” by blindly shooting rockets into cities or blowing up cafes their “oppressor” actually tries to strike at those responsible. Unfortunately these murders (I am sure you prefer “freedom fighter”) hide in the civilian population and make things harder on them.
Interestingly when they are not killing their “oppressor” they are often killing fellow Palestinians but I am sure that is Israel’s fault somehow.
There will be no meaningful improvement to their second class status until the terrorism stops. Of course you have no compassion for these people and couldn’t care less about their poor lot in life. You would just as soon use them as a weapon against the hated jews. You have made your position on this quite clear in the past.
The situation in Palestine is FUBAR because the UN practically hand fed the locals, forcing millions and millions of dollars and food supplies down their throat.
Demographics hardly lie and a poor palestine women being able to raise nine children instead of three are a way to ensure there will be some form of conflict. Give the youngsters a custom made, violent BS religion that tells you their divine arch enemy is right next door and nothing can go wrong anymore.
Artificially sponsoring a youth bulge through subsidizing and charity is probably the most surreal thing western civilization has done so far.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Genghis Khan had a good quote when he was shown a mosque. He said, (and I’m paraphrasing) “Why do you have to go in there and pray when God is all around us? He’s everywhere.” [/quote]
You don’t have to. It’s just that in some regions, it’s the cleanest place you could find.
Who says Allah wants the Jews out of Israel?
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Actually if you look at the history of the land you will find that a lot of the Palestinians were recent immigrants from other parts of the middle east. The reason why they moved into the area was starting in the 1890’s the zionist movement started moving jews back into the area. The Ottomans put a limit on how many jews could move in. So when the economy started to expand because of the jewish immigration and they needed more laobor, arabs were brought in. So a lot of the Palestinians don’t have more than a few decades more time on the land than the Jews. [/quote]
Can you quantify that “a lot of the Palestinians”?
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Artificially sponsoring a youth bulge through subsidizing and charity is probably the most surreal thing western civilization has done so far. [/quote]
There’s been much more “surreal”. I just don’t know how to phrase it without hurting many people’s sensibilities.
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
The situation in Palestine is FUBAR because the UN practically hand fed the locals, forcing millions and millions of dollars and food supplies down their throat.
Demographics hardly lie and a poor palestine women being able to raise nine children instead of three are a way to ensure there will be some form of conflict. Give the youngsters a custom made, violent BS religion that tells you their divine arch enemy is right next door and nothing can go wrong anymore.
Artificially sponsoring a youth bulge through subsidizing and charity is probably the most surreal thing western civilization has done so far.
[/quote]
Good point.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Dustin wrote:
No one would dream of forcing Jews to live the way the Palestinians are in the Occupied Territories, yet it’s perfectly fine for the Palestinians.
Who’s being obtuse?
Dustin
I agree the Palestinians shouldn’t have to live like that. Maybe one day, the Palestinians will decide they shouldn’t either. Maybe at which point they will demand the departure of various terrorist groups launching attacks from their lands. Yes, including Hamas whose charter is not constructed with a two state solution in mind, but the actual elimination of Israel.
Until then, Israel can only see see a land that has been used in the past as a launching point for attacks by Arab neighbors. Today, Israel can only imagine a Palestinian state as a chaotic safe haven for suicide bombers, rocket launchers, and Iranian proxies. Gee, I wonder what gives them that idea.
Come on, even you would have to admit the futility of returning land to the Palestinians and respecting them as separate state. A couple weeks of suicide bombing, rocket attacks, and etc., will just have Israel retaking land to deny these guys an uncontested safe haven.[/quote]
The palistinians wouldn’t live like that if they didn’t want to. Perhaps, rather than screaming jihad and killing people, they actually lifted a finger to help each other out then maybe they would be better off.
But no, like I said they put all their efforts into blaming Israel for their misery and killing innocent people. Imagine the possiblities if they’d just knock that shit off, pull together and work to make their situation better.
Sure it’s not as romantic as killing Jews but at least they’d eat. Israel’s cruelty is largely retaliatory, the palitinians are responsible for their on plight. I guess if we gave them welfare and section 8 housing they’d shut the fuck up, at least for a little while until the Boon’s Farm ran dry.
[quote]lixy wrote:
pat36 wrote:
You think maybe if they put as much effort into agriculture as they do attacking Israel that the palistinians might actually eat?
Now if only they could have their lands back.
[/quote]
Would it really make a difference? Gush Katif (Jewish settlement in Gaza before disengagement) was a wonderful piece of land (wiki):
"In the Katif Bloc�??s unique hothouses, a uniquely developed advanced technology was used to grow bug-free leafy vegetables and herbs answering to the strictest health, aesthetic and religious requirements.[…]
The total sum of exports from the greenhouses of Gush Katif, which were owned by 200 farmers, came to $200,000,000 per year and made up 15% of the agricultural exports of the State of Israel.
The combined assets in Gush Katif were estimated at $23 billion. […]
The Economic Cooperation Foundation, which is funded by the European Union, agreed to purchase the hothouses for $14 million and transfer ownership to the Palestinian Authority, so that the 4,000 Palestinians employed to work in them could keep their jobs. Former head of the World Bank, James Wolfensohn, contributed $500,000 of his own money to the project.
When the IDF left Gaza, thousands of Palestinians looted the area, and 800 of the 4,000 hothouses were left unusable"
WTF, I say. You get the land, you get the technology that can produce $ and support you economically and you destroy it? I can understand destruction of synagogues, but hothouses?
It starts to seem to me that the problem is not Israel, but either lack of a good Palestinian leader, inability of one to rise to power because Palestinians/Arabs don’t want a good leader.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Artificially sponsoring a youth bulge through subsidizing and charity is probably the most surreal thing western civilization has done so far.
There’s been much more “surreal”. I just don’t know how to phrase it without hurting many people’s sensibilities.[/quote]
You mean war and it’s cohorts (genocide, slavery, mass rapes etc…)?
Actually, while vile and repulsive, there is always some sense of practicability behind these. Someone gets fat through others’ suffering.
But charity politics?
They feel like the modern form of letters of indulgence to me. Only they are even more useless, cause the church did get fat and mighty from them, so there was actually some benefit.
[quote]skor wrote:
Now if only they could have their lands back.
Would it really make a difference? Gush Katif (Jewish settlement in Gaza before disengagement) was a wonderful piece of land (wiki):>>>
<<<WTF, I say. You get the land, you get the technology that can produce $ and support you economically and you destroy it? I can understand destruction of synagogues, but hothouses?
It starts to seem to me that the problem is not Israel, but either lack of a good Palestinian leader, inability of one to rise to power because Palestinians/Arabs don’t want a good leader.[/quote]
Just to be clear this “Now if only they could have their lands back.” was not my statement.
[quote]kroby wrote:
lixy wrote:
pat36 wrote:
You think maybe if they put as much effort into agriculture as they do attacking Israel that the palistinians might actually eat?
Now if only they could have their lands back.
The Bedouins want their land back?[/quote]
Maybe the Orthodox Christians should re-claim theirs, oopse, when they tried in Kosovo, we stopped them.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Who says Allah wants the Jews out of Israel?[/quote]
If Allah doesn’t will it, then why do the Palestinians fight in the name of their God?
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
lixy wrote:
Who says Allah wants the Jews out of Israel?
If Allah doesn’t will it, then why do the Palestinians fight in the name of their God?[/quote]
Only because their religious/political leaders have a wrong/violent interpretation of Quran (the word of G-d which should not be really open to interpretation) and because this gullible people believe that a certain book (that most never read) is a literal is that word of G-d.