Muscle Soreness

Bigger Stronger Leaner Over 35 Lifter
1

Hey guys, I’ve been lifting like forever; the longest lay off I’ve had was for about 2 weeks back in the mid 90’s. I decided back in the early 90’s that I was never going to take off for an extended period again (like a year) because I knew I would hate myself for it.

Anyway, it of course is a way of life now. My question is why do I get so damn sore if I take like 3 days off in a row? I get serious DAMS like I haven’t touched a weight in years.

I usually lift at lunch so I’ll feel it coming on in the early evening and if I don’t load up on 500mg of naproxen I’ll wake up in the middle of the night unable to move. It’s like my body is made of lactic acid.

Any other old timers have this continually happen to them after such a short layoff? I have a good friend that just turned 40 and he doesn’t experience it. My family has a history of arthritis and I experience it at times but this is different. Also it’s been happening for the last few years…I’m 39.

For reference I drink a fair amount of water throughout the day and drink 20oz each workout. I occasionally drink a couple of beers with dinner though…I’m diggin for any explanation.

2

DOMS is not well understood and there are many theories about it but it is generally agreed these days that lactic acid isn’t the culprit.

How’s your peri-workout nutrition? I’d want to make sure that I was getting not just water, but also protein before, during, and after my workout. I find that BCAA supplementation post-workout is helpful with DOMS but as always, YMMV.

I’d also make sure I was taking anti-inflammation supps like fish oil as well as making sure my Vitamin C intake was good.

With something like this where the exact mechanisms are not really known, you’re left doing your own detective work and I always start with a look at my nutrition.

If you know you’re going to be hit hard with DOMS, I’d dial back that day’s workout a bit. Maybe not go all the way to stretching the muscle under load. So like when you do curls, don’t go all the way to the bottom on the eccentric phase.

Hitting the NSAIDs hard is never a good idea in my book so this would be something that I’d experiment with until I got a handle on it.

I hope this helps. Good luck!

3

A recovery drink like Surge is always a good idea. If you have access to a sauna or steam room, use them after your tough, post lay-off workouts. Hitting the same muscle groups the next day with low weight and high reps also should be considered. Good Luck.

4

I pop a few BCAAs mid workout, and right after training typicaly eat a pop tart with some whey and creatine. Walking to and from the gym might also help warm up / flush out some stuff -lol

-S

5

There can be soreness from over-work and lactic acid, then there is the soreness from low reps with higher loads where soreness can be from mechanical strain and muscle damage. The later can promote growth. Soreness can be a good sign!

6

Thanks all. I have been hitting the fish oil, however I lack in supplementing with BCAAs and protein pre-work out. I will adjust one at a time starting with protein; I have always tried to avoid eating right before work outs to help fat burning but there is no reason not to stir up some whey in some milk and roll.

KSman; appreciate your glass half full outlook, lol. I enjoy a certain amount of muscle soreness don’t get me wrong, these occasional bouts are incapacitating! I’m hoping following some of u bros. suggestions that I can just decrease the severity of them.

Peace,

Mousse

8

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
I’m going to add my own opinions here, though they are just that -opinions.

After a 3 day layoff, you’ve had ample time to recover/synthesise your stores of all the vital chemicals like neurotransmitters, peptide hormones, glycogen, etc.

It’s possible that something like the arachidonic acid inflamatory cascade that leads to the production of (amongst other things) prostaglandins can work much more effectively following on from a period of rest.

Also, since your CNS has had a chance to recover more fully (depending on the type of training you do) after a 3 day layoff, you are contracting the muscles more forcefully, inducing greater trauma, and hence inflammation.

I wouldn’t recommend this in the longterm, but you might try taking a little aspirin post workout, and before bed. If this help your soreness, then it may be a clue to the mechanism of your pain, since aspirin inhibits the conversion of arachidonic acid to other inflammatory molecules.

I’m geekin’ out here, lol.

Bushy[/quote]

Dood, I had a neurosurgeon from MIT come in and translate this for me, he said you are basically telling me I’m getting old - lol!
Based on what you are saying, (since I really had to translate this with my own tiny brain) this coincides with what KS was saying and it’s really a good thing?

Because although I lack your understanding of the entire process I think I get the gist; it is simply tear down/repair/growth basically (in layman’s terms), and with that being said I must conclude that my aging body may be the underlying cause, but why?

Can we discuss further the conversion of arachidonic acid to other inflammatory molecules; I’d like to know if my aging body is or is not somehow lagging in whatever mechanism was previously successful in making tear down and recovery much less painful.

Also, do you guys think taking more than 400mg/day of Omega 3’s is necessary? How much does one typically take?

9

I feel exactly the same thing - I can workout days in a row, no problem. But after 2 days rest, achey DOMS.

Nobody knows the real answer.

Why the delay? Who knows. I suppose it is better than hurting during the workout, that’d be discouraging for anyone to workout.

400mg of omega 3s… ??? what the??? Don’t most people take 4,000-10,000 mg ie 4-10g or so? 400mg is a small dose.

It might help but doubt it will stop it. If anyone has found a way to stop DOMS please tell me.

Surge or something similar (like BCAAs) should help.

10

[quote]Magarhe wrote:
I feel exactly the same thing - I can workout days in a row, no problem. But after 2 days rest, achey DOMS.[/quote]
Nice to know I’m not alone.

^^Glass half full…nice^^

thanks bra

12


What I have used with the water, protein, BCAAs and so on…
bla bla… (they are good but not all that effective for the soreness)

IS turmeric root and pure cherry juice… Both taste ba… well not so good but the results are great for the muscles and my joints…

turmeric root is cheep, I get it at grocer and the cherry juice too… I Take on training days 1 table spoon of turmeric root twice; once at lunch and once with my post work out meal.
8oz cherry juice in morning and 8oz with my pre work out shake.

solid

13

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

However, if you are like me, you just can’t keep away from the gym, and almost have to train ED, which may actually be slightly counter-productive, to certain people.

Bushy[/quote]

First of all I’m glad to hear that even someone slightly more youthful experiences this as well; however, even on AAS sometimes it is pretty damn severe.

As far as what you’ve stated above, I couldn’t agree with you more; that is my position as well. I have had some of my strongest days following 2 days off and the soreness is minimal…but I can’t train only every 3 days obviously so I probably work out a little too much. I have tried all kinds of splits and like the one I’ve been using for the last 4 years too much to change it, which is a problem in itself too because my muscles I’m sure have grown accustomed somewhat and I should change it up.

14

[quote]happydog48 wrote:

If you know you’re going to be hit hard with DOMS, I’d dial back that day’s workout a bit. Maybe not go all the way to stretching the muscle under load. So like when you do curls, don’t go all the way to the bottom on the eccentric phase.

[/quote]

Thats a fact
heavy stretching in the eccentric phase = delayed muscles soreness

…even if you take lot of protein BCAA,glutamine,vit C,fish oil,ZMA and a good 9hours sleep you’ll sill feel it .

and it seem to be getting worst with time

I really believe that the body constantly adapt itself
so I see DOMS as a sign of progress. Maybe I’m wrong…

I would really like to see what studies and researches have to say about DOMS
Any good article to recommend about DOMS ?

15

[quote]emjay777 wrote:
happydog48 wrote:

Thats a fact
heavy stretching in the eccentric phase = delayed muscles soreness

I really believe that the body constantly adapt itself
so I see DOMS as a sign of progress. Maybe I’m wrong…

I would really like to see what studies and researches have to say about DOMS
Any good article to recommend about DOMS ? [/quote]

from a study in Sweden:
http://www.diva-portal.org/umu/reports/abstract.xsql?dbid=105

i tried to read the full study but could only comprehend so much. The study was from 2003 so i don’t know if this is considered old information or not. The conclusion did say this:

“ultrastructural alterations do occur after unaccustomed eccentric exercise. However by taking into account of the protein composition of the alterations observed by immunohistochemistry, we propose that they reflect myofibril remodeling rather than myfibril damage. The amorphous widened Z-discs and the amorphous sarcomeres can be related to an increased expression of F-actin and a disruption of the Z-discs in the sense that alpha-actinin, titin, nebulin and possibly other Z-disc proteins are detached or degraded from the Z-disc. Furthermore the Z-disc streaming and smearing are not caused by a proliferation of the Z-disc-related proteins; instead they are due to an increase of F-actin and desmin. Double Z-discs and areas with supernumerary sarcomeres do not relfect myofibril damage but can be related to sarcomerogenesis and remodeling of the myofibrils.”

I found the above study from wikipedia. Heres a little quote from wikipedia about DOMS also:

“Some research claims that DOMS is not caused by the pain from damaged muscle cells, but from the reinforcement process.[3] The muscle responds to training by reinforcing itself up to and above its previous strength by increasing the size of muscle fibers (muscle hypertrophy). This reinforcement process causes the cells to swell in their compartment and put pressure on nerves and arteries producing pain.”

16

Hello,

I apologize in advance for a small hijack of the thread, but you guys seem very knowledgable and thought I would ask something that has been bothering me for a while. When I train (also at lunchtime) my soreness takes 24 hours to sometimes 36 hours to appear and then it is moderate to severe with legs being the worst. Is that a little long for the onset to occur? If you think I should start another thread, I will.

17

[quote]headdrag wrote:
Hello,

I apologize in advance for a small hijack of the thread, but you guys seem very knowledgable and thought I would ask something that has been bothering me for a while. When I train (also at lunchtime) my soreness takes 24 hours to sometimes 36 hours to appear and then it is moderate to severe with legs being the worst. Is that a little long for the onset to occur? If you think I should start another thread, I will.

[/quote]

Not that knowledgable but I’m usually most sore 2 days after a heavy lifting day.

18

The smaller muscles will be affected by DOMS sooner. Generally, 18-24 hours for my chest/shoulders and 36-48 hours for my back/legs.

19

[quote]sir_tris wrote:
The smaller muscles will be affected by DOMS sooner. Generally, 18-24 hours for my chest/shoulders and 36-48 hours for my back/legs.[/quote]

That is exactly what occurs for me. Thanks for the info.

20

[quote]Mousse wrote:

Can we discuss further the conversion of arachidonic acid to other inflammatory molecules; I’d like to know if my aging body is or is not somehow lagging in whatever mechanism was previously successful in making tear down and recovery much less painful.

Also, do you guys think taking more than 400mg/day of Omega 3’s is necessary? How much does one typically take?[/quote]

Minimally 5 g of DHA & EPA. Ideally, 10% of your fat intake.

I’m speculating here, but maybe certain receptors and pain-transmission neurons get more sensitive over time.