By minimizing the eccentric I meant not purposely going down slowly. The goal is to get as much total work done as possible. If you start ‘wasting’ energy on the way down you won’t have as much strength left for the concentric portion.
As an aside, I think olympic weightlifters are an extremely puzzling bunch. They all lift big weights yet some are incredibly muscular while some look like they’ve never trained.
Yeah, same Zulu. What happened to that board, btw?
-Zulu
Zulu,
I disagree. Unless you are talking about the smallest of the small weight classes. Besides that, most seem to sport fairly decent musculature. Powerlifters especially.
Another thing, so called bodybuilders always talk of how once they started using low reps and heavy weight theor physiques took off. Or most of them champion power /strength work to give them tremendous thickness/size. Maybe your so called bodybuilders are more powerlifters than you think.
This is just one mans experience, but I screwed around with 10-12 reps for a year and a half and made minimal gains. This month I ate clean and plentiful, rarely went over 7 reps, and added significant amounts of strength and size. This is the first time I trained this way, though. I’m sure that has something to do with my response. In summary, trying to get stronger worked in my case.
Yes yes yes. But, consider this…
Manual laborers
One friend of mine has gigantic arms. He is on the construction crew. He doesn’t lift weights.
One of my employers has hauled hay all his life. His arms could probably grip a truck. He doesn’t lift weights either.
I have seen humongous sheet metal workers. Bet you a dollar most of them dont lift weights.
Yet there big. And there strong.
How?
Manual labor involves big volume. Sometimes big intensity, sometimes little.
But how are they so big?
Why does it have to be one or the other? I imagine that a lot of people cycle periods of strength training with periods of traditional hypertrophy training.
I noticed a tremendous amount of improvement by concentrating on the eccentric portion of the lift.
greekdawg, from what i’ve read in t-mag, 7/10 professional bodybuilders can’t even bench 3 plates…
however, in favor of strength training…
I CAN drink milk without 90 million people telling me it mixes p f and c. Cry me a protein shake. I can eat pizza too. And, big poundages attract the ladies.
Harkonnen,
Most bodybuilders (the ones you see winning and in magazines and shit) obviously have cleary superior genetics to build lots of muscle size easily without getting very strong. Also they probably have superior muscle attachment points. That’s why they are bodybuilders in the first place. If not we all would be walking around very huge.
However,
For the average person in the gym who wants to put on considerable size they will probably have to get him/herself very strong to have size results.
(So you’re point about what bodybuilder benches what is moot.)
GD? Great thread!! I have to agree with you and many other people had great points.
For those of you who don?t know me, I?d like to first introduce myself. My name is Christina AKA/ Solo?s girl. My husband is Solojobber. I?ve been reading and absorbing for a while? and making an occasional off topic post. To avoid hijacking the thread, I?ll tell you more about myself in another thread?
?The look at me crazy when I am doing weighted dips, good mornings, and deadlifts instead of lots of tricep cable work, leg curls, etc… I also keep my reps low, the turn their nose at this too. ?
?I strain, but I am not drenched in sweat (usually) I leave feeling refreshed!?
I can totally relate with you here. I?ve been doing low reps for several weeks now and people look at me as if I don?t know what I?m doing. It?s like their thinking that I can ONLY do five and straining to do them, then I should lighten the weight. For instance, I was doing leg presses the other day, and I heard some guys talking behind me saying that I had too much weight on there, so I?m not imagining what they are saying. Just because I am a girl and weight a buck o?five, doesn?t mean I can?t strain and lift hard. It does seem that the majority of people in my gym lift high reps bearing lighter loads. I was doing lat pull downs the other day (don?t flame me/ I do chin-ups and various other exercises to, I just change it up to shock the muscles)? anyway I cut in with a guy and he was lifting 85 (weak, I know…) well, when I move the weight to 75 (still not much, but only one notch under his) He looked at me strange while I was lifting slow and steady and concentrating on the negative. I believe in squeezing the crap out of the bar and flexing the muscles being trained. I think because I did only 5 reps and looked strained, that he thought that I was weak. He kept saying ?come on, one more? you can do more than that? with a smirk as his turn came and he put it back to 85 and proceeding to do like fifteen reps in record time. LOL When I cut back for my last set, I move it up. You should have seen his face? I?m sure he thought? what the hell is this girl doing, she can barely do 5 before? I think some people just think they look strong when they can do it fast and do lots of reps?.?Look how many I can do! Look how fast!? These people crack me up.
I started planning my workouts and I get in and out much quicker. Yesterday, this was my schedule: Squats 3 sets of 4-6
Deadlifts 3 sets of 4-6
Leg presses 3 sets of 4-6
Calf raises 3 sets of 6-10
Weighted standing calf raises 3 sets of 6-10
I was in and out in 45 minutes. Although I love being in the gym for hours and love the feeling of getting all sweaty (just feels like I?ve accomplished something), the short workouts are much more affective and proficient. It?s definitely the way to build rock solid muscles.
Goldberg, I agree with you totally about mindset. I?ve always have had the mindset that I?m thin person and I think that?s the reason that I was back into my clothes within a week of having my two children. I?m not saying it had everything to do with mindset, but a lot. I have friends that just accept the idea that they are going to be ?different? after having children, but you can?t think like that. Why should you be different? Sure some of us will have to work harder than others, but never except anything less that perfection I never had it in my head that I would be fat after children. I think you are on to something Goldberg? you should do some studies on it and write a book I told a friend a couple of months ago who was struggling with her weight (not fat, but struggling) she was lifting and doing cardio, eating healthy and all, but she still thought of herself as ?fat?. I told her to change her mindset. Think of her-self as ?thin? ? the ?true? her as thin. Not only did she start making progress, but her self-esteem changed too. She was more self confident. I know there is nothing scientific to back this up, but it is nice to know others think this way also. I have read some articles on self talk and how that affects ones life and emotions, but nothing about it effecting ones physical self.
Good topic?
[Note from Mod: The question marks in your post are caused by cutting and pasting from a Word program. Turning off the “smart quotes” feature will get rid of most of them.]
tiree, buddy… it’s not big POUNDAGES that attract the women, silly.
Everyone knows it’s the form and technique used to “get it up” that the ladies appreciate.
;0)
sorry about the question marks… it does make it hard to read. For anyone confused, the second paragragh was quoting GD. The third was commenting on the quoted paragragh.
And the last statement was suppose to read “Good topic!” not w/ a ? LOL
Tiree:
Keep on drinking milk and you will never tell the difference it would have on your physique if you didn’t drink it. My point is you’ll never know. Replace the protein with some steak, tuna, or chicken. Replace the carbs with good carbs. I’m telling you it will make a difference. But you do what you want.
As for manual labor. These guys are probably naturally big already. I work at a seafood company where we lift 60-160 pound yellowfin tuna about 4 feet high into a box. Imagine a deadlift but a little higher. I’m not talking about just a few but we may do over a hundred in a day. And if you ever picked up a tuna it’s not like picking up a barbell. It’s bulkier and a lot harder to handle. We also have to stack the boxes on pallets after with another 70 pounds of ice. Some pallets go over our heads. My point- I don’t think this has added anything to my physique in terms of muscle gain. It might enable me to recover faster but it’s not going to make me huge. Food and lifting will.
Well put Jason L.
This is straight out of Alessi’s “Booming Biceps” article…
" In addition, arm cross sectional area (mass) is correlated to your squat strength and deadlift strength in resistance trained athletes.
Exercise scientists have even developed strength-prediction equations for the bench press, deadlift and squat that are based on biceps circumference. This is one reason that powerlifters turned bodybuilders place high in their first show. Even a correspondence-course fitness trainer understands that for maximum mass development you must rely on heavy barbell exercises. The more joints involved, the stronger your mechanical advantage, the more weight you?ll lift and the more tension you?ll place on the muscles. All of this results in greater muscle mass."
No more direct arm work for me…
Sometimes I just wonder if we don’t “overthink” everything. How did guys get big (definitely not Ronnie Coleman size but larger than most of the regular posters on this forum, including myself) and cut (definitely not to today’s bodybuilding standards but very respectable) in the 50’s - 70’s while drinking lots of milk and working out way too much according to today’s ideas? I don’t think these guys were stuffed with drugs either. Sure, Arnie and the boys did a little Dianabol but nothing compared to today.
My 44 year old training partner came up in the late 70's, early 80's lifting big weights for lots of volume. 20 sets for some body parts was standard issue and he drank milk constantly, combined foods "wrong" and generally shouldn't have been any bigger than a pencil according to today's science. No drugs for him. He's always been natural. He still knocks out more sets than I care to partake of but I can't argue that it sure worked for him. He's still got a lat spread that I would kill to have. Go figure.
Exactly how can you explain him and many others like him?
To MR:
Everyone is different and responds differently to everything. How do we not know that those guys 40 years ago wouldn’t have been bigger and leaner if they followed today’s science and meal combining strategies. And there is always a better way to do things. Just look at technology and computers.
As a computer engineer, I can’t argue the fact that technology and computers have enabled great advances in certain areas. I’ve watched fuel injection and turbocharger technology literally triple horsepower outputs in small block race engines in the last 10 years. Unfortunately, computers have also created their own inefficiences in other areas as well. It sometimes takes longer to do things with a PC than by hand.
It’s just hard for me to accept a lot of modern science that seems to come and go very quickly. Most supplements seem to have a pretty short “shelf life”. Studies constantly come out that totally refute prior ones. I question a profession that calls their work “practice”. Science isn’t exact when it comes to human physiology and may never be. Maybe I’m being cynical but if I can’t prove it through real life experience then I’m pretty skeptical.
These postings are not typical and your results may vary.
I like milk and milk likes me
I like milk with Vitamin D
Homogenized, Pasteurized
Milk’s the only only drink for me
I drink milk in my Capt. Crunch
I drink milk when I eat my lunch
Milk comes from our friend the cow
So grab yourself a cool glass now
I drink milk with all my food
Milk it does a body good
It’s got calcium, don’t you know?
Builds strong bones, helps you grow
Chocolate milk, skim milk,
Low and wholefat - they’re all for me!
(Love Slug)
"In addition, arm cross sectional area (mass) is correlated to your squat strength and deadlift strength in resistance trained athletes. "
How good is the correlation? Statements like this are void of meaning without data. ~A~ correlation means absolutely nothing. Obviously if you squat and deadlift it is likely that you also do bicep work/chin-ups and therefore will have big biceps… that isn’t to say the statement is wrong, just meaningless if not backed up.
-Zulu