Mufasa and Gambit

[quote]Makavali wrote:

No, but seriously - you’re not being persecuted. That black guy in the 1930s being chased by a mob? He was being persecuted. This is the equivalent of me forcing you to buy a McDonalds combo every day but not making you eat it unless you choose to of your own free will.

Grow a pair you sook.[/quote]

Sure they are - if a mosque or mosque-affiliated institution (like an Islamic school for children) was forced to serve bacon in its cafeteria, it’d be persecution, even if the kid didn’t eat the bacon of his own free will. Right?

So how far should we go to protect religious freedoms?

Would it be wrong to outlaw this practise: Infant's death at Maimonides Hospital linked to circumcision  – New York Daily News

?

[quote]therajraj wrote:
So how far should we go to protect religious freedoms?

Would it be wrong to outlaw this practise: Infant's death at Maimonides Hospital linked to circumcision  – New York Daily News

?[/quote]

Yes it would.

But as Health Officials, it would not be inappropriate to discuss with Religious leaders the dangers inherent in the practice.

Mufasa

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
So how far should we go to protect religious freedoms?

Would it be wrong to outlaw this practise: Infant's death at Maimonides Hospital linked to circumcision  – New York Daily News

?[/quote]

Yes it would.
[/quote]

sigh

We now have to kowtow to religion even if it means putting infants in fucking danger…How sad.

“But I want to do human sacrifice. Your anticannibalistic court of law is infringing on my rights to tear out the heart of my enemies atop pyramids. This is tyranny!”

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
So how far should we go to protect religious freedoms?

Would it be wrong to outlaw this practise: Infant's death at Maimonides Hospital linked to circumcision  – New York Daily News

?[/quote]

Yes it would.
[/quote]

sigh

We now have to kowtow to religion even if it means putting infants in fucking danger…How sad.

“But I want to do human sacrifice. Your anticannibalistic court of law is infringing on my rights to tear out the heart of my enemies atop pyramids. This is tyranny!”[/quote]

We’ll have this conversation when you’ve genuinely gone pro-life.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
No, but seriously - you’re not being persecuted. That black guy in the 1930s being chased by a mob? He was being persecuted. This is the equivalent of me forcing you to buy a McDonalds combo every day but not making you eat it unless you choose to of your own free will.

Grow a pair you sook.[/quote]

Yeah?

Well, if you do not prostrate yourself before the almighty government they send men with guns.

So, you either submit or the persecution gets very real, very fast.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
So how far should we go to protect religious freedoms?

Would it be wrong to outlaw this practise: Infant's death at Maimonides Hospital linked to circumcision  – New York Daily News

?[/quote]

Yes it would.
[/quote]

sigh

We now have to kowtow to religion even if it means putting infants in fucking danger…How sad.
[/quote]

Yes we do and for good reason.

Google the 100 year war and then you know why we decided to leave that topic kind of alone.

If people want to mutilate their own children, let them, it beats the alternative.

[quote]therajraj wrote:
So how far should we go to protect religious freedoms?

Would it be wrong to outlaw this practise: Infant's death at Maimonides Hospital linked to circumcision  – New York Daily News

?[/quote]

People have been circumcising for 4000 years, how do you fuck it up?

[quote]Makavali wrote:
No, but seriously - you’re not being persecuted. That black guy in the 1930s being chased by a mob? He was being persecuted. This is the equivalent of me forcing you to buy a McDonalds combo every day but not making you eat it unless you choose to of your own free will.

Grow a pair you sook.[/quote]

So if I forced you to pay for a child prostitution ring, would you be cool with it as long as you didn’t use it?

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
So how far should we go to protect religious freedoms?

Would it be wrong to outlaw this practise: Infant's death at Maimonides Hospital linked to circumcision  – New York Daily News

?[/quote]

Yes it would.
[/quote]

sigh

We now have to kowtow to religion even if it means putting infants in fucking danger…How sad.

“But I want to do human sacrifice. Your anticannibalistic court of law is infringing on my rights to tear out the heart of my enemies atop pyramids. This is tyranny!”[/quote]

You’re right, it’s way better to just kill them before they have a chance to be born and circumcised because they are inconvenient. I mean duh. Just kill them and then nobody will have a chance to infect them with a disease. What’s not obvious about that?
Chop’em up, suck’em out… Prevent some kookie rabbi with a disease from getting them sick.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
So how far should we go to protect religious freedoms?

Would it be wrong to outlaw this practise: Infant's death at Maimonides Hospital linked to circumcision  – New York Daily News

?[/quote]

Yes it would.
[/quote]

sigh

We now have to kowtow to religion even if it means putting infants in fucking danger…How sad.

“But I want to do human sacrifice. Your anticannibalistic court of law is infringing on my rights to tear out the heart of my enemies atop pyramids. This is tyranny!”[/quote]

We’ll have this conversation when you’ve genuinely gone pro-life.
[/quote]

I’m leaning that way minus the instance of rape or if the mother’s life is in danger. I just don’t completely understand the arguments as I don’t have a science background.

I’m not even against circumcision on the whole, just the specific practise mentioned in the article. The Rabbi puts his mouth on the babies dick which has lead to a transfer of herpes in some cases.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

I’m leaning that way minus the instance of rape or if the mother’s life is in danger. I just don’t completely understand the arguments as I don’t have a science background.[/quote]

I’m sincerely glad to hear this. You might just end up on my ‘atheists to keep around’ list, if my theocratic takeover of the Americas ever gets off the ground!

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

I’m leaning that way minus the instance of rape or if the mother’s life is in danger. I just don’t completely understand the arguments as I don’t have a science background.[/quote]

I’m sincerely glad to hear this. You might just end up on my ‘atheists to keep around’ list, if my theocratic takeover of the Americas ever gets off the ground!
[/quote]

Well I’m glad I’m not alllllll bad. hehe

So I’m thinking we may be able to come to some sort of understanding.

Would it be fair to say there is a limit to how far religious freedoms should extend?*

Would you guys be in favour of banning the specific method of circumcision (where the mouth is used) as presented in the article?

*Answering yes to this question does not mean you have to change your position on the Catholic contraception matter.

Obviously, I use the word “persecution” differently than it is being used by many on this thread. WHen I agreed with Muf, I hadn’t intended to cause a “fuss.” I simply don’t think that this qualifies as persecution. That is all.

[quote]Last summer the health department decreed that all new health-insurance policies should cover birth-control services for women, including the morning-after pill (which most pro-lifers consider a form of abortion) and sterilisation. Churches are exempt; but church-affiliated hospitals, schools and universities, most of which employ and serve people of many faiths, are not. Once the new rule comes into effect, in 2013, they will have to include such services in their insurance packages, at no extra cost to the employee.

This decision has upset many denominations, but the Catholic church is especially furious. …

Does the new rule really prevent the free exercise of religion? One governor, Maryland?s Martin O?Malley, a Democrat and a Catholic, accuses the Catholic leadership of ?hyperventilating?. Nothing in the new rule interferes with the freedom to worship. Nor will it require anybody to practise contraception against their will (and most Catholics use contraceptives anyway). But the rule will require institutions to pay for contraceptive drugs and services they find objectionable on grounds of conscience. The administration points out that 28 states already impose such requirements, but its critics say the new rules are tougher.[/quote] Obama’s “war on religion” | The Economist

Also, I think that the accommodation/exemption DOES change the “level” of connection between the church and the women’s health products they consider evil. Direct payment to indirect payment IS different, IMO.

[quote]t seemed dubious that any change would placate them, unless Mr Obama scrapped the rule entirely. But the president tried to compromise on Friday morning. Religious institutions such as hospitals and charities would not have to pay for contraception themselves; insurers would bear the costs instead [/quote] And on and on... | The Economist

Further, there is a lot of data which shows that women, men, and society benefit when contraception is easily accessible. The data be damned | The Economist Perhaps the data is wrong or incomplete. But honestly, I don’t think so.

Further, bluntly, it is difficult for me care that an association which purposefully excludes women from the highest forms of leadership is so concerned about the evils (in their opinion) of a women’s health product.

In the end though, I think my opinion simply comes from my experiences and my families’. My wife and I have used contraception. I have a cousin who has used “the pill” for medical reasons not related to family planning.

Just some random thoughts after a few beers and before bed. Have a good night everyone.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

Secondly, I will need further explanation as to how this is different than, say, paying your employees using the currency of a society that offers contraception.

[/quote]

Pot; kettle; black.[/quote]

Maybe it’s the beer or the hour, but I don’t understand your point here.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

Third, your goalposts shifted considerably in an EXTREMELY short time. From “[quote]Nobody–not the WH, not Congress, not the media, not pundits left or right–has claimed there is an exemption for these religious institutions.[/quote]” to “[quote]After the fact, this ‘accommodation’ (not an exemption) was offered.[/quote]” If you care to argue semantics, go ahead. You said “no one was saying THIS” when it was obvious people were but you didn’t like the way the word was being used.[/quote]

From the beginning of this thread I asked for someone to produce an exemption. Nobody has. No goals have been shifted. THE INSTITUTIONS MUST PROVIDE A PLAN WITH THE COVERAGE. Not possible!
[/quote]

Yes, but they don’t have to directly pay for it. See my post above.