Mufasa and Gambit

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

Push and T.bolt are handling the enforcement side just fine, nothing for me to add. What I still don’t get is why we should spare Obama our outrage because the Court may or may not go along with him on this. How does that erase his guilt?

Heck, there is an absolutely legitimate argument that Obama has no business mandating contraceptive coverage to any employer. But to tread upon long held religious doctrines, too? That’s a de facto doctrinal/theological dictate being handed down by the WH. What non-coercive, voluntary, associational, and otherwise lawful, religious doctrines/practices are suddenly ‘not worthy’ of recognition, and a hands off approach, by the state? This IS a very dangerous road.

62

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
But without the mandates (the overall ones); doesn’t the whole Act fall like a stack of cards? (At least to my understanding).

My point about the “non-enforcable” part…maybe I am using the wrong terms…maybe “difficult to enforce?”

I know that many on the Far Right are thinking that the President is taking us to a Totalitarian State (and that’s the kind of hyperbole that makes ME angry, and that I don’t think furthurs any discussion); but in the U.S., I just don’t see them being able to enforce in any meaningful way something that goes against the basic tenents of a Religion.

Mufasa [/quote]

It’d be so easy it’s like falling off a log.

  1. Cite infraction.

  2. Levy fines.

  3. If poor institution doesn’t pay fine then just exactly what happens today when you, Muf, don’t pay your IRS levied fine…occurs.

Muf, I’m thinking you’ve never had to deal with the IRS before. How is that possible in today’s world?[/quote]

Oh BOY have I had to deal with those bastards…and more than once, Push!

Mufasa

63

Bolt:

Did you state the the Supreme Court will be reviewing the RELIGIOUS mandates this spring? (In addition to the overall mandates of the PPAA?)

Mufasa

64

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

Bolt:

Did you state the the Supreme Court will be reviewing the RELIGIOUS mandates this spring? (In addition to the overall mandates of the PPAA?)[/quote]

No, the review will be of the individual mandate (the penalty for not purchasing insurance).

65

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
I’m a fraud and a smug idiot.

The President is a Socialist Anti-Semitic, anti-religion, Kenyan-Born fraud who is taking this Country, and the Church, to it’s very ruin.

And you gave me the challenge to “put-up or shut-up”…

So I’ll shut up.

Mufasa[/quote]

Yes, you will shut up. You’ll shut up without having admitted there was no exemption for these institutions. And, without directing the same level of smugness for the President, as you did against the institutions who already having to file lawsuits to protect themselves from this President.[/quote]

Why should there be an exemption for an “institution” ?

How much of a collectivist mindset must we swallow?

Should it not be enough if one individual was against abortion and would not provide it for his employees?

66

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

The insurance coverage is like a minimum wage, it has to include some minimum set of services. Could a religious institution have the belief that employees should only get paid $4 an hour?[/quote]

Also, you do realize they can drop insurance coverage, right? It’ll suck for those who’d voluntarily agree to work for coverage that didn’t include contraception coverage (you know, like they’re doing now), but there you go…The well thought out tyranny of the left.
[/quote]

So anyways, which of these 2 options would the church prefer.

A. Insurance companies offer contraceptive insurance to individuals on the side, church pays for it indirectly via an accounting trick.

B. Small tax increase for everyone, government makes sure free contraceptives are available to everyone through services like PP, etc.[/quote]

A complete exemption.[/quote]

So choice B?[/quote]

I think what he meant was you gave a false dichotomy, neither and complete exemption.

67

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:<<< So now the institution is being fined for adhering to one of basic tenets of its religious teachings. >>>[/quote]And one that is also considered very ancient and therefore longstanding. Birth Control | Catholic Answers

68

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
I know that many on the Far Right are thinking that the President is taking us to a Totalitarian State (and that’s the kind of hyperbole that makes ME angry, and that I don’t think furthurs any discussion)
[/quote]I don’t want to start an argument that derails the thread, but I’ve got to say something

He is taking us to a totalitarian state. He’s not the first president to push us in that direction, and he probably won’t be the last.

When its Bush in office, they call me “far left”. Then, seemingly overnight with Obama, I magically get teleported to the “far right”.

No - I’m dead center - its y’all who are extreme.

69

Well, it’s 5:52am here, but I figured I’d come on or be accused some something again. I haven’t been able to read the whole thread and all the links, so if it’s here, I may have missed it.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

You are normally civil. For that, I’ll respond a bit. But if you don’t turn off the “froth,” I’m not going to respond. Just a heads up. [/quote]

Then don’t respond. You smug little fools showed up to dismiss what Catholic instituions are facing as 'pseudo-persecution." At least you agreed to those word. Don’t ask for civility without having given it, first.[/quote]

First, if I offended, or was uncivil, I apologize, that was not my intent.

Secondly, I will need further explanation as to how this is different than, say, paying your employees using the currency of a society that offers contraception.

Third, your goalposts shifted considerably in an EXTREMELY short time. From “[quote]Nobody–not the WH, not Congress, not the media, not pundits left or right–has claimed there is an exemption for these religious institutions.[/quote]” to “[quote]After the fact, this ‘accommodation’ (not an exemption) was offered.[/quote]” If you care to argue semantics, go ahead. You said “no one was saying THIS” when it was obvious people were but you didn’t like the way the word was being used.

Fourth, The language that some were using “changing church doctrine, pope obama, trying to destroy the church, etc.” was over the top and demagoguery, IMO.

Fifth, I don’t think Christians are being persecuted.

Sorry, time up…gotta go.

Thanks for taking the time to read. I hope you are enjoying your thread.

70

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

Secondly, I will need further explanation as to how this is different than, say, paying your employees using the currency of a society that offers contraception.

[/quote]

Pot; kettle; black.

71

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

Third, your goalposts shifted considerably in an EXTREMELY short time. From “[quote]Nobody–not the WH, not Congress, not the media, not pundits left or right–has claimed there is an exemption for these religious institutions.[/quote]” to “[quote]After the fact, this ‘accommodation’ (not an exemption) was offered.[/quote]” If you care to argue semantics, go ahead. You said “no one was saying THIS” when it was obvious people were but you didn’t like the way the word was being used.

[/quote]

From the beginning of this thread I asked for someone to produce an exemption. Nobody has. No goals have been shifted. THE INSTITUTIONS MUST PROVIDE A PLAN WITH THE COVERAGE. Not possible!

72

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

Fourth, The language that some were using “changing church doctrine, pope obama, trying to destroy the church, etc.” was over the top and demagoguery, IMO.

[/quote]

When he removes his far more offensive language (the wording of the mandate), I might shed a tear. I have mere words while he has the force of an unjust law, after all.

73

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

Secondly, I will need further explanation as to how this is different than, say, paying your employees using the currency of a society that offers contraception.
[/quote]

No, you don’t. You don’t need any explanation at all. The fact that we now have to come and explain ourselves to you and Pope Obama, for merely the continuation of a completely peaceful, voluntary, associational arrangement–which fulfills our LONGSTANDING religious obligations–is the most damning evidence of all.

74

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

Secondly, I will need further explanation as to how this is different than, say, paying your employees using the currency of a society that offers contraception.
[/quote]

No, you don’t. You don’t need any explanation at all. The fact that we now have to come and explain ourselves to you and Pope Obama, for merely the continuation of a completely peaceful, voluntary, associational arrangement–which fulfills our LONGSTANDING religious obligations–is the most damning evidence of all.
[/quote]

Okay, I gotta know, what the hell is that a picture of, in your avatar?

75

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

Secondly, I will need further explanation as to how this is different than, say, paying your employees using the currency of a society that offers contraception.
[/quote]

No, you don’t. You don’t need any explanation at all. The fact that we now have to come and explain ourselves to you and Pope Obama, for merely the continuation of a completely peaceful, voluntary, associational arrangement–which fulfills our LONGSTANDING religious obligations–is the most damning evidence of all.
[/quote]

Okay, I gotta know, what the hell is that a picture of, in your avatar?[/quote]

Saturn Devouring his Son. But I believe it to be no less representative of modern western civilization.

76

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

Secondly, I will need further explanation as to how this is different than, say, paying your employees using the currency of a society that offers contraception.
[/quote]

No, you don’t. You don’t need any explanation at all. The fact that we now have to come and explain ourselves to you and Pope Obama, for merely the continuation of a completely peaceful, voluntary, associational arrangement–which fulfills our LONGSTANDING religious obligations–is the most damning evidence of all.
[/quote]

Okay, I gotta know, what the hell is that a picture of, in your avatar?[/quote]

Saturn Devouring his Son. But I believe it to be no less representative of modern western civilization. [/quote]

LOL! Ok…

77

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

Secondly, I will need further explanation as to how this is different than, say, paying your employees using the currency of a society that offers contraception.
[/quote]

No, you don’t. You don’t need any explanation at all. The fact that we now have to come and explain ourselves to you and Pope Obama, for merely the continuation of a completely peaceful, voluntary, associational arrangement–which fulfills our LONGSTANDING religious obligations–is the most damning evidence of all.
[/quote]

Okay, I gotta know, what the hell is that a picture of, in your avatar?[/quote]

Saturn Devouring his Son. But I believe it to be no less representative of modern western civilization. [/quote]

LOL! Ok… [/quote]

Well, we are a wealthy and powerful people. Our ‘poor’ generally have luxuries and comforts that Kings of the past could’ve only dreamed of. We’ve used it to focus on our individual pleasure.

A graying powerful people, ensuring our demographic dominance;

  1. contracepting and aborting away rivals for our time, resources, and self-interested power and pleasures.
  2. saddling infants with financial obligations beyond their capability to meet

As long as we time it right, dying of natural causes having satisfied our own appetites and libido, we probably won’t feel too much of the future consequences ourselves. If, we time it right. Kick that can a little further down the road, just past the point where we get off.

78

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

Secondly, I will need further explanation as to how this is different than, say, paying your employees using the currency of a society that offers contraception.
[/quote]

No, you don’t. You don’t need any explanation at all. The fact that we now have to come and explain ourselves to you and Pope Obama, for merely the continuation of a completely peaceful, voluntary, associational arrangement–which fulfills our LONGSTANDING religious obligations–is the most damning evidence of all.
[/quote]

Okay, I gotta know, what the hell is that a picture of, in your avatar?[/quote]

Saturn Devouring his Son. But I believe it to be no less representative of modern western civilization. [/quote]

LOL! Ok… [/quote]

Well, we are a wealthy and powerful people. Our ‘poor’ generally have luxuries and comforts that Kings of the past could’ve only dreamed of. We’ve used it to focus on our individual pleasure.

A graying powerful people, ensuring our demographic dominance;

  1. contracepting and aborting away rivals for our time, resources, and self-interested power and pleasures.
  2. saddling infants with financial obligations beyond their capability to meet

As long as we time it right, dying of natural causes having satisfied our appetites, we probably won’t feel too much of the future consequences ourselves. If we time it right. Kick that can just a little further down, past the point where we get off.
[/quote]

Oh I agree we are no less brutal, disgusting and cold hearted than man has ever been. We are no better than our Roman, Assyrian, Chaldean, Hun, etc. ancient counter parts. We just sanitize it, hide it behind close doors and use prettier words to describe it.

79

No, but seriously - you’re not being persecuted. That black guy in the 1930s being chased by a mob? He was being persecuted. This is the equivalent of me forcing you to buy a McDonalds combo every day but not making you eat it unless you choose to of your own free will.

Grow a pair you sook.