MT vs TKD... Can We All Just Get Along?

Bigger Stronger Leaner
1

So yeah, tonight me and my buddies went to a TKD house to spar with some new people. We’re MT and BJJ fighters. Some of the TKD guys had some jitz so it turned into full on MMA sparring. It was all fun and good. We had a lot of fun and learned a few things. Anyway, at the end of the “class” everybody gets to talking about kicking and I bet you can guess what happened.

Huge debate ensues on who’s kick was better. We were in their house so I tried to placate and just act like I was interested but in the back of my mind I keep thinking “they are different styles, why is it such a big deal?” and “why does this ALWAYS come up between MT and TKD fighters?”.

Can we all just get along? The TKD guys were awesome kickers. Thai fighters are awesome kickers. They are just different styles that are equally effective.

/rant

2

No they aren’t.
/thread

3

IMO they are really unsure of themselves. Though some of the TKD guys are oblivious toward MMA etc… most are not. I think they see some flaws in their system and feel the need to validate their choice of doing TKD.

In my experience is kicking by far the thing they spend most of their time on, so I think it’s like “we’re not good on the ground and our strikes aren’t that good either, but at least our kicks are worthwhile”

So it’s a big deal for them because they believe somewhere in the back of their heads, “that’s the only thing we have”. Imagine how painfull it would be for them that their niche is taken away from them… by for example a MT guy :))

4

How dare you suggest that martial artists show respect and humility.

5

[quote]sardines12 wrote:
No they aren’t.
/thread[/quote]

That’s a great contribution. Full of insight. Thanks for that.

6

I think those debates are stupid as well.

I still use my TKD kick’s and i kick box. Look at K1 or King of Sanda or Anderson Silva who trains with the brazilian TKD team. That is never brought up by joe rogan, he uses little to no MT other then the clutch. But people still say Anderson is MT striker. Even when you throws jump kicks and spinning back kicks in his fights. Look at Cung Li, he is San shou but uses a lot of TKD kicks like 360 spinning back kicks.

The flip side is, leg kicks and knees are practical applications that isnt used in modern TKD either…

MT’s ultimate strength is their training and conditioning. Their primary focus is on High percentage attacks. They dont have the variety like TKD but what they do have, they stuff down your throat over and over again.

TKD strength is the versitility of their kicks. You can attack a person from nearly any range and angle and land a kick. The problem is that theres no head punch shots or clutching or knees and leg kicks. its like Boxing, what it does it does better then anybody, however, once you throw in a few more things and they’re dead.

In the end i think people should explore combining things to move martial arts forward, instead of hanging on to old ideas and hold martial arts back.

7

[quote]lucidfuel wrote:
I think those debates are stupid as well.

I still use my TKD kick’s and i kick box. Look at K1 or King of Sanda or Anderson Silva who trains with the brazilian TKD team. That is never brought up by joe rogan, he uses little to no MT other then the clutch. But people still say Anderson is MT striker. Even when you throws jump kicks and spinning back kicks in his fights. Look at Cung Li, he is San shou but uses a lot of TKD kicks like 360 spinning back kicks.

The flip side is, leg kicks and knees are practical applications that isnt used in modern TKD either…

MT’s ultimate strength is their training and conditioning. Their primary focus is on High percentage attacks. They dont have the variety like TKD but what they do have, they stuff down your throat over and over again.

TKD strength is the versitility of their kicks. You can attack a person from nearly any range and angle and land a kick. The problem is that theres no head punch shots or clutching or knees and leg kicks. its like Boxing, what it does it does better then anybody, however, once you throw in a few more things and they’re dead.

In the end i think people should explore combining things to move martial arts forward, instead of hanging on to old ideas and hold martial arts back. [/quote]

This. So. Hard.

8

[quote]lucidfuel wrote:
I think those debates are stupid as well.

I still use my TKD kick’s and i kick box. Look at K1 or King of Sanda or Anderson Silva who trains with the brazilian TKD team. That is never brought up by joe rogan, he uses little to no MT other then the clutch. But people still say Anderson is MT striker. Even when you throws jump kicks and spinning back kicks in his fights. Look at Cung Li, he is San shou but uses a lot of TKD kicks like 360 spinning back kicks.

The flip side is, leg kicks and knees are practical applications that isnt used in modern TKD either…

MT’s ultimate strength is their training and conditioning. Their primary focus is on High percentage attacks. They dont have the variety like TKD but what they do have, they stuff down your throat over and over again.

TKD strength is the versitility of their kicks. You can attack a person from nearly any range and angle and land a kick. The problem is that theres no head punch shots or clutching or knees and leg kicks. its like Boxing, what it does it does better then anybody, however, once you throw in a few more things and they’re dead.

In the end i think people should explore combining things to move martial arts forward, instead of hanging on to old ideas and hold martial arts back. [/quote]
His leg kicks are definitely MT, the other showy shit is TKD but that isn’t what wins him fights. The only person I can think of who has used TKD kicks solely and had success is Cung Le. Other than that most TKD guys have crosstrained. I can’t find the article but TKD federations sent fighters to compete in a tournament with boxers and MT guys not a single TKD guy won. The kicks are fine but the lack of punching the movement the point system are all unpractical.

9

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]lucidfuel wrote:
I think those debates are stupid as well.

I still use my TKD kick’s and i kick box. Look at K1 or King of Sanda or Anderson Silva who trains with the brazilian TKD team. That is never brought up by joe rogan, he uses little to no MT other then the clutch. But people still say Anderson is MT striker. Even when you throws jump kicks and spinning back kicks in his fights. Look at Cung Li, he is San shou but uses a lot of TKD kicks like 360 spinning back kicks.

The flip side is, leg kicks and knees are practical applications that isnt used in modern TKD either…

MT’s ultimate strength is their training and conditioning. Their primary focus is on High percentage attacks. They dont have the variety like TKD but what they do have, they stuff down your throat over and over again.

TKD strength is the versitility of their kicks. You can attack a person from nearly any range and angle and land a kick. The problem is that theres no head punch shots or clutching or knees and leg kicks. its like Boxing, what it does it does better then anybody, however, once you throw in a few more things and they’re dead.

In the end i think people should explore combining things to move martial arts forward, instead of hanging on to old ideas and hold martial arts back. [/quote]
His leg kicks are definitely MT, the other showy shit is TKD but that isn’t what wins him fights. The only person I can think of who has used TKD kicks solely and had success is Cung Le. Other than that most TKD guys have crosstrained. I can’t find the article but TKD federations sent fighters to compete in a tournament with boxers and MT guys not a single TKD guy won. The kicks are fine but the lack of punching the movement the point system are all unpractical.[/quote]

Kinda, leg kicks are MT’s trademark, but they didnt invent it. They simply perfected it. However, if you watch Thiago alves throw leg kicks vs Anderson. Anderson throws them TMA style, he chambers the leg and last second extends his leg. Alves hits your leg with a baseball bat.

But ya, i can see TKD guys getting killed when not fighting in TKD rules. Problem with TKD is that its not a martial art anymore, its a martial sport. Since entering the olympics, TKD has moved away from its roots and become much more like a sport then a real fighting art. Often times in TKD sparring i feel like im playing kick tag vs fighting. I guess thats why i moved to San shou rules.

10

I like what Jhoon Rhee has done with TKD, his style uses more western boxing style punches and footwork than the typical traditional TKD. Too bad all the schools with his name on them are McDojo franchises. Still, I fought one of his private students in DC, and the guy had hands like a Golden Gloves level fighter. Kicked my ass, but it was fun.

11

Ive done kickboxing (not thai rules) and I compete in taekwondo. I train with a guy who is very good at taekwondo and has fought several muay thai matches. We dont really see the problem in utilizing both in our training.

Are tkd kicks and muay thai kicks different>? Yes. The princepals for power generation are the same though, really throwing your hip into the kick (though tkd tends to hit with the instep and thais hit with the shin). There is also a difference in intent. Tkd kicks are setup more like boxing where you are throwing several faster lighter shots as a setup for a knockout kick or hard scoring kick. dont just go to a tkd school and spar "black belts’ because I could go to a kickboxing class and spar soccer moms. If you want to truly see how intricate, quick and powerful tkd can be in the kicking game go spar/fight people that compete in the US open and place in nationals etc, these guys train 3-4 hours a day for YEARS.

There is no doubt in my mind muay thai is more complete that olympic taekwondo in terms of a fighting system, but really its about harmony and both can learn from each other. If you people are really dedicated to the martial arts and combat you wouldnt have the time to talk shit without having a reasonable example.

12

[quote]666Rich wrote:
Ive done kickboxing (not thai rules) and I compete in taekwondo. I train with a guy who is very good at taekwondo and has fought several muay thai matches. We dont really see the problem in utilizing both in our training.

Are tkd kicks and muay thai kicks different>? Yes. The princepals for power generation are the same though, really throwing your hip into the kick (though tkd tends to hit with the instep and thais hit with the shin). There is also a difference in intent. Tkd kicks are setup more like boxing where you are throwing several faster lighter shots as a setup for a knockout kick or hard scoring kick. dont just go to a tkd school and spar "black belts’ because I could go to a kickboxing class and spar soccer moms. If you want to truly see how intricate, quick and powerful tkd can be in the kicking game go spar/fight people that compete in the US open and place in nationals etc, these guys train 3-4 hours a day for YEARS.

There is no doubt in my mind muay thai is more complete that olympic taekwondo in terms of a fighting system, but really its about harmony and both can learn from each other. If you people are really dedicated to the martial arts and combat you wouldnt have the time to talk shit without having a reasonable example.[/quote]

dont come around here with your logic and open-mindedness… we dont tolerate you people in these parts

13

IMO they are 2 different styles, 2 different ways of kicking and different applicatons. I agree both have their benefits for their styles. And thats where it stops,

The stances are different for example. So this will require different foot work to throw any kick. Watching TKD, they are more side on low gaurd stance. In Muay Thai we are more Squared up with a high gaurd.TKD has a lot of snapping movents with a alot of knee flexion and exaggerated hip rotation.
In Muay Thai We depened on Suttle Explosive Movements, We pivot on the ball of the foot when thowing a lot of different knee and kicks to generate Momentum to increase Power.

When it comes down to it I really dont give a shit, what TKD guys do is all good, I aint got qualms, just dont say they are the same kick!!! What a waste of my F@$#n time,I could have been training!

14

Hi. I’m a TKD blackbelt, and have been doing it for 14 years.

Don’t do TKD. It’s bullshido. The way it’s trained nowadays is absolute crap. If you can find a very alive, very hard-sparring, full-contact and down n’ dirty TKD club, by all means do it, but that is as likely as winning the lottery. Oh and one that doesn’t teach their students to FIGHT WITH THEIR MOTHERFUCKING HANDS DOWN.

Muay Thai: Produces many great fighters, tons of good MMA fighters and it has been pressure tested and proven again and again and again and… yeah.

TKD: I haven’t seen a TKD guy who does really well in MMA or K1 or in other very alive, full-contact situations.

Fellow TKD-ers, I don’t mean you any disrespect, I’m just saying that the training methods widespread in our art nowadays are absolutely awful.

Regards and Respect. Osu!
-Carlos Jesena

15

[quote]CarlosJesena wrote:
Oh and one that doesn’t teach their students to FIGHT WITH THEIR MOTHERFUCKING HANDS DOWN.
[/quote]

As I said above, Jhoon Rhee, even in their Bullshido kids classes, seems to make a point of keeping the hands up and the chin tucked. I think Mr. Rhee studied a little boxing, because their stances also seem more mobile than traditional TKD.

I’ve also met a few RoK Marines, and what they call TKD is brutal and effective. It looks nothing like the kids in pajamas bouncing around your local strip mall. If you can find one of these guys teaching the style he was taught, you could probably use it in the ring effectively.

Otherwise, it seems like MMA-effective MT is the rule, while in TKD it is the exception.

16

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]CarlosJesena wrote:
Oh and one that doesn’t teach their students to FIGHT WITH THEIR MOTHERFUCKING HANDS DOWN.
[/quote]

As I said above, Jhoon Rhee, even in their Bullshido kids classes, seems to make a point of keeping the hands up and the chin tucked. I think Mr. Rhee studied a little boxing, because their stances also seem more mobile than traditional TKD.

I’ve also met a few RoK Marines, and what they call TKD is brutal and effective. It looks nothing like the kids in pajamas bouncing around your local strip mall. If you can find one of these guys teaching the style he was taught, you could probably use it in the ring effectively.

Otherwise, it seems like MMA-effective MT is the rule, while in TKD it is the exception.[/quote]

Hands up, chin tucked is the way to go, my friend. That’s a good TKD school.

17

[quote]CarlosJesena wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]CarlosJesena wrote:
Oh and one that doesn’t teach their students to FIGHT WITH THEIR MOTHERFUCKING HANDS DOWN.
[/quote]

As I said above, Jhoon Rhee, even in their Bullshido kids classes, seems to make a point of keeping the hands up and the chin tucked. I think Mr. Rhee studied a little boxing, because their stances also seem more mobile than traditional TKD.

I’ve also met a few RoK Marines, and what they call TKD is brutal and effective. It looks nothing like the kids in pajamas bouncing around your local strip mall. If you can find one of these guys teaching the style he was taught, you could probably use it in the ring effectively.

Otherwise, it seems like MMA-effective MT is the rule, while in TKD it is the exception.[/quote]

Hands up, chin tucked is the way to go, my friend. That’s a good TKD school.
[/quote]

IIRC, they don’t do Olympic style competition, or if they do it’s only a few of their students. A connection perhaps?

18

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]CarlosJesena wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]CarlosJesena wrote:
Oh and one that doesn’t teach their students to FIGHT WITH THEIR MOTHERFUCKING HANDS DOWN.
[/quote]

As I said above, Jhoon Rhee, even in their Bullshido kids classes, seems to make a point of keeping the hands up and the chin tucked. I think Mr. Rhee studied a little boxing, because their stances also seem more mobile than traditional TKD.

I’ve also met a few RoK Marines, and what they call TKD is brutal and effective. It looks nothing like the kids in pajamas bouncing around your local strip mall. If you can find one of these guys teaching the style he was taught, you could probably use it in the ring effectively.

Otherwise, it seems like MMA-effective MT is the rule, while in TKD it is the exception.[/quote]

Hands up, chin tucked is the way to go, my friend. That’s a good TKD school.
[/quote]

IIRC, they don’t do Olympic style competition, or if they do it’s only a few of their students. A connection perhaps?[/quote]

That’s probably why. I got my first big “shocker” when I started training MMA. The bouncy-bouncy stance with the hands at the sides will get you knocked fast. You get to see what does work, and what doesn’t faster if everyone’s not playing by the same rules.

But cross-training breeds improvement. For both TKD and MMA.

19

[quote]CarlosJesena wrote:

But cross-training breeds improvement. For both TKD and MMA.
[/quote]

Agreed.

20

You can have your hands down at your sides…if you actually have ridiculously good hands, especially when countering, that you plan to use.

That said (having done TWD some years) the art is nearly useless without crosstraining.

It’s not bad to persue it for some time to work on your kicks and flexibility, though. Be sure to kickbox afterwards to craft your new arsenal into real weapons. The timing and setup is C O M P L E T E L Y different.