More Proof Muslims Are Nuts!

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
That is messed up. There are some serious problems in that culture and it has nothing to do with us.

Ok. So you’re the only ones to understand that and the rest of the world is under heavy propaganda.

What’s striking is that a substantial portion of US citizens believe that their country’s foreign policy is to blame for lots of things. Go ask people of Latin America about what how much wreckage your policies have caused in the region.

Illuminate me as to why there’s little trouble in the rest of the Arab world besides the regions occupied by Israel and the US. [/quote]

Lixy,

Could you possibly make one more stop during your summer vacation (while visiting Darfur (“to see for myself what is happening there”), and pop over to Ethiopia? I’d like to hear how either the US, or Israel is responsbible for the Wahabbi Muslim extremists violence.

And while your at it, spend at least a weekend in southern Thailand, talking to the islamic separatists.

You’ve got a busy summer ahead!

122

[quote]Tokoya wrote:
You were supposed to go to Darfur for your summer break. I’m sure we’ll all get a report on how all the atrocities committed by muslims Janjaweed, etc., is the fault of US policy. Could you spend a little time in Kashmir as well? [/quote]

Nope. Maybe in the future, but there’s no way I can afford to go to Kashimr this year.

I didn’t blame the US for Darfur. So, give me a break…

Here’s a story a Sudanese told me today, to illustrate the state of mind of the people down there. I thought I’d share.

Two regular folks had a minor car accident in front of the villa of the most influencial Janjaweed chief. The guards came out and beat them so bad that they lost conscious. Apparently, they should have bumped into each other in front of the wrong house.

Anyway, the Minister of the Interior called on the Janjaweed chief to bring forth the guards responsible for the beating so they can be tried. He refused. The next day, heavy artillery was at his door to pressure him to give up. He didn’t budge an inch and it resulted in the Sudanese army bombing his house and many casualties. Mad!

Zero. Null. Nada. Niette. Ingenting. Waloo.

I pay my taxes just as any other person here. I am appaled by healthy people who sit at home mooching off others. It’s morally wrong, socially destructive and economically unsustainable.

You sound stereotypically-minded. Here’s the doctor’s opinion: Varying acquaintances, activities and readings is healthy.

123

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I have taught middle eastern (arabic) students in the past and while a select few were hard working and fine young people, the majority seemed to have a ‘what can I get away with’ attitude, way more pronounced than any other group. I attribute this to, until recently, their families living under despots.[/quote]

I have met many Americans in the past and while a select few were open-minded and properly informed people, the majority seemed to have a ‘I’m arrogant and I piss on the rest of you’ attitude, way more pronounced than any other group. I do not attribute this to anything because I know better than generalize in such stupid ways.

The most moral country on Earth? Sounds awfully similar to what the Brits were calling themselves back in when they were hacking the globe to extend their empire.

You’d be laughed at anywhere with such idiotic statements.

124

[quote]lixy wrote:
Tokoya wrote:
You were supposed to go to Darfur for your summer break. I’m sure we’ll all get a report on how all the atrocities committed by muslims Janjaweed, etc., is the fault of US policy. Could you spend a little time in Kashmir as well?

Nope. Maybe in the future, but there’s no way I can afford to go to Kashimr this year.

I didn’t blame the US for Darfur. So, give me a break…

Here’s a story a Sudanese told me today, to illustrate the state of mind of the people down there. I thought I’d share.

Two regular folks had a minor car accident in front of the villa of the most influencial Janjaweed chief. The guards came out and beat them so bad that they lost conscious. Apparently, they should have bumped into each other in front of the wrong house.

Anyway, the Minister of the Interior called on the Janjaweed chief to bring forth the guards responsible for the beating so they can be tried. He refused. The next day, heavy artillery was at his door to pressure him to give up. He didn’t budge an inch and it resulted in the Sudanese army bombing his house and many casualties. Mad!

By the way, how much welfare do you and your family receive from the Swedish government?

Zero. Null. Nada. Niette. Ingenting. Waloo.

I pay my taxes just as any other person here. I am appaled by healthy people who sit at home mooching off others. It’s morally wrong, socially destructive and economically unsustainable.

You sound stereotypically-minded. Here’s the doctor’s opinion: Varying acquaintances, activities and readings is healthy.[/quote]

Lixy,

In a previous post, you wrote the following:

Illuminate me as to why there’s little trouble in the rest of the Arab world besides the regions occupied by Israel and the US.

I pointed to the example of Darfur.

Look at other non-Arab states… How about southern Thailand? Look what’s happening to the Buddists there… How about discos in Bali? How about Kashmir? How about the Phillipines? the subways in London, or the trains in Madrid?

There is a consistant dynamic in each location mentioned above. Can you guess what it is?

Here’s a hint, the answer doesn’t have anything to do with the Mossad, or the CIA…or Gaza, or the West Bank…

Look more closely at a certain “radical, religious” element for your answer. If it helps, consult your Koran (the folks committing the atrocities in these regions typically do this for their inspiration).

Hope that helps.

125

[quote]Tokoya wrote:
Look more closely at a certain “radical, religious” element for your answer. If it helps, consult your Koran (the folks committing the atrocities in these regions typically do this for their inspiration).

Hope that helps.

[/quote]

Not quite. The religion of Islam is merely a tool used by extremists to manipulate misguided people into achieving their political ends. Political. Not religious. Just about any book could be used for this if you wanted.

This view, (the ‘political-not-religious’ one) also happens to be the view of one of your governments’ main anti-terrorist blokes, (can’t remember his name I’m afraid, but I saw him interviewed a while back by the BBC and he made this exact point very eloquently). As he gets paid to spend his working life studying these phenomena I am prepared to trust his judgement on the matter. Equating Islam with terrorism has gone past being ignorant now, it’s just lazy.

126

[quote]lixy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
I have taught middle eastern (arabic) students in the past and while a select few were hard working and fine young people, the majority seemed to have a ‘what can I get away with’ attitude, way more pronounced than any other group. I attribute this to, until recently, their families living under despots.

I have met many Americans in the past and while a select few were open-minded and properly informed people, the majority seemed to have a ‘I’m arrogant and I piss on the rest of you’ attitude, way more pronounced than any other group. I do not attribute this to anything because I know better than generalize in such stupid ways.

Therefore, Lixy, you should support the efforts of the USA (the most moral country on earth) to liberate your fellow Muslims.

The most moral country on Earth? Sounds awfully similar to what the Brits were calling themselves back in when they were hacking the globe to extend their empire.

You’d be laughed at anywhere with such idiotic statements.[/quote]

I taught these same young people often for 2 years. Young people are quite open in such settings, so I think I understand their psyche. I understand why they behave as they do — the Ottoman Empire wasn’t condusive to free thought.

Americans appear arrogant because we are outspoken, having not been cowed by totalitarianism. You should get that.

America is easily the most moral country on earth — how many countries would send their nation’s finest to so many hellholes, to establish democracy? We defeated and destoyed the Kaiser, Der Fuhrer, Tojo, the USSR, North Korea (not done yet, though), and have even turned China into a capitalist country. We will succeed in destroying radical Islam, like squishing a shiteater bug.

Help, or get the fuck out of our way.

127

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

We will succeed in destroying radical Islam, like squishing a shiteater bug.

Help, or get the fuck out of our way.

[/quote]

I like to think so, but I don’t think we ever will. The whole faith is centred around submission. That is somewhat at odds with the anglo-saxon world of independence and free-will.

There is only “Radical” Islam, (I thought skateboarding was “radical”, blowing up groups of people and mutiliating women requires a stronger term). Moderates are merely failing in their duties to convert the infidels.

I do not think that every muslim is a bad person, however, I do think their religion is misguided at best and just plain evil at worst. Every atrocity carried out by these death-cultists is in accordance with their book of teaching. (Which is something all the well meaning “liberals” fail to understand).

You cannot reason with a man who is carrying out the work of his “god”. The only hope is that the various muslim groups are preoccupied with wiping each other out and leave the non-muslim world alone.

128

[quote]The Beast wrote:
Headhunter wrote:

We will succeed in destroying radical Islam, like squishing a shiteater bug.

Help, or get the fuck out of our way.

I like to think so, but I don’t think we ever will. The whole faith is centred around submission. That is somewhat at odds with the anglo-saxon world of independence and free-will.

There is only “Radical” Islam, (I thought skateboarding was “radical”, blowing up groups of people and mutiliating women requires a stronger term). Moderates are merely failing in their duties to convert the infidels.

I do not think that every muslim is a bad person, however, I do think their religion is misguided at best and just plain evil at worst. Every atrocity carried out by these death-cultists is in accordance with their book of teaching. (Which is something all the well meaning “liberals” fail to understand).

You cannot reason with a man who is carrying out the work of his “god”. The only hope is that the various muslim groups are preoccupied with wiping each other out and leave the non-muslim world alone.[/quote]

Rather than get bogged down in another petty and meaningless argument, I can only recommend you conduct some open-minded investigations into the true nature of Islam. Your appraisal is painful to read. As per my post on the last page, you really need to differentiate between politics dressed up in a pseudo-religious cloak, and the true nature of the faith. your interpretation of submission is wrong, and this: " Moderates are merely failing in their duties to convert the infidels" is, I assume, deliberately inflammatory?

If you are remotely interested in obtaining a balanced view on the faith, I will gladly provide you with websites. However, if you are content to continue to learn about it from the Daily Mail or internet chat rooms then good luck.

129

[quote]The Beast wrote:
You cannot reason with a man who is carrying out the work of his “god”.[/quote]

“God speaks through me” Georges W. Bush – July 9, 2004

Your deliberatly agressive and close-minded statements towards Islam are a paroxysm of ignorance. I bet you never cared about that culture all your life, got suddenly interested in it after 2001 and never even cared verifying whatever BS you were fed.

Do serious research on the subject and get to know some Muslims before making up your mind.

130

[quote]lixy wrote:
The Beast wrote:
You cannot reason with a man who is carrying out the work of his “god”.

“God speaks through me” Georges[sic] W. Bush – July 9, 2004

[/quote]
Good stuff, so “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” comes to the fore again.

Because I am not a big fan of Islamic fundamentalism, I must therefore agree with George Bush? Is that your reasoning? Did you read that in your “Bush-Hitler-Modern-Liberal-Anti-Neo-Con-Thinking for Dummies” book?

Wrong again Mr Holmes.

I have been well read on the impact of Islam upon the world way before they carried out the September 11th attacks (or do you think that was a Jewish conspiracy?).

I am well read on Mohammed, his purported conversations with the Angel Gabriel, his dislike of whistling and music. I know about his “youthful” mistress and his rise to power. I also know about the Armenian massacre, the SS Imams who operated Islamic brigades for the Nazis in WW2 and all the other wonderful things they brought the world. So don’t presume that my attitude was formed as a result of their latest actions.

[quote]
Do serious research on the subject…[/quote]

I have, thank you. Hence my less than positive opinion, here is a quote given recently by His Holiness the pope, taken from the Emperor
Manual II Paleologos, the ruler of the Byzantine Empire, which used to occupy the Christian lands of what is now Islamic Turkey(a somewhat westernised country in parts, but sliding down the slippery slope towards Islamification). Anyway, here is the quote:

“Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”

Well, I have walked past my local Mosque a few times, and that has strong links to international terrorism, so does that count?

But that aside, yes, as I stated in my original post, I do not consider the average muslim living in the west a bad person, I do however consider their faith misguided at best, and all the atrocities that are carried out by the “militants” are doing exactly what their holy book tells them to do. This book is not open to interpretation, it is the word of God as transposed by Muhammed from the Angel Gabriel, hence why their “social practices” and attitudes towards women have not changed since the original inception of the faith.

This is the fundamental difference between the Koran and the Bible, the latter is open to interpretation, the former is not, and specifically, Christians believe that the Pope is God’s representative on earth, the Islamists have no such person.

131

[quote]The Beast wrote:
This is the fundamental difference between the Koran and the Bible, the latter is open to interpretation, the former is not, and specifically, Christians believe that the Pope is God’s representative on earth, the Islamists have no such person.[/quote]

Where on Earth did you get such erroneous info? I’m genuinely curious. Islam as preached by Mohammed encourages every one to beef up on linguistics, history and science to be able to interpret the Quran.

The danger of radical Islamists is that some guru claims to represent God on Earth and end up abusing that power. Zawahiri anyone? Mohammed saw the trouble with the “clergy” and pro-actively fought it. The very reason why he encouraged everyone to personally interpret the Quran.

For the Nazi Imams and the massacres perpetrated by Muslims, don’t you think it’s a little hasty to blame it on their faith. Should I blame the crusade calamities on all Christians or the oppression of Palestinians on all Jews? Should I deduce based on British history that your culture somehow incites you to conquer and exploit other lands? Should I blame Nazism on the German way of life? Surely, you can reason and draw make distinctions where appropriate.

Your “research” is reminescent of the guy who wanted to learn more about Judaism and bought “The protocol of the elders of Zion”. Keep a critical eye and cross check whatever your read.

132

[quote]lixy wrote:
The Beast wrote:
This is the fundamental difference between the Koran and the Bible, the latter is open to interpretation, the former is not, and specifically, Christians believe that the Pope is God’s representative on earth, the Islamists have no such person.

Where on Earth did you get such erroneous info? I’m genuinely curious. Islam as preached by Mohammed encourages every one to beef up on linguistics, history and science to be able to interpret the Quran.

.[/quote]

One of the most appealing aspects of Islam is the concept of ijtihad(sp?). I don’t know if I can do it justice, because it has been a while since I studied any religions. But as I recall it was the concept of questioning the holy doctrine.

The reasoning was that God, in his perfection, gave us the abilty to reason, to critically examine the world around us, and to question everything, even the existence of God, and his holy word. The idea is that, in his perfection, he knows that such reasoning will ultimately draw man back to God, but it is upto man to discover it for himself.

I was really surprised to hear of this concept in Islam, or any of the old world religions. Because it is a pretty contemporary idea that religious leaders don’t seem to like(leaders, in general don’t like their followers to think).

Not that it matters. Assholes will be assholes regardless of their believes. Religion may historically be responsible for more wars and death than anything else in human history. But, if it weren’t religion it would just be something else.

It has nothing to do with the holy books, their followers or what they do or don’t believe. The common denominators of power, control, dominance, leaders and followers…etc. extend beyond religion.

133

[quote]The Beast wrote:
lixy wrote:
The Beast wrote:
You cannot reason with a man who is carrying out the work of his “god”.

“God speaks through me” Georges[sic] W. Bush – July 9, 2004

Good stuff, so “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” comes to the fore again.

Because I am not a big fan of Islamic fundamentalism, I must therefore agree with George Bush? Is that your reasoning? Did you read that in your “Bush-Hitler-Modern-Liberal-Anti-Neo-Con-Thinking for Dummies” book?

…
Your deliberatly agressive and close-minded statements towards Islam are a paroxysm of ignorance. I bet you never cared about that culture all your life, got suddenly interested in it after 2001 and never even cared verifying whatever BS you were fed.

Wrong again Mr Holmes.

I have been well read on the impact of Islam upon the world way before they carried out the September 11th attacks (or do you think that was a Jewish conspiracy?).

I am well read on Mohammed, his purported conversations with the Angel Gabriel, his dislike of whistling and music. I know about his “youthful” mistress and his rise to power. I also know about the Armenian massacre, the SS Imams who operated Islamic brigades for the Nazis in WW2 and all the other wonderful things they brought the world. So don’t presume that my attitude was formed as a result of their latest actions.

Do serious research on the subject…

I have, thank you. Hence my less than positive opinion, here is a quote given recently by His Holiness the pope, taken from the Emperor
Manual II Paleologos, the ruler of the Byzantine Empire, which used to occupy the Christian lands of what is now Islamic Turkey(a somewhat westernised country in parts, but sliding down the slippery slope towards Islamification). Anyway, here is the quote:

“Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”

…and get to know some Muslims before making up your mind.

Well, I have walked past my local Mosque a few times, and that has strong links to international terrorism, so does that count?

But that aside, yes, as I stated in my original post, I do not consider the average muslim living in the west a bad person, I do however consider their faith misguided at best, and all the atrocities that are carried out by the “militants” are doing exactly what their holy book tells them to do. This book is not open to interpretation, it is the word of God as transposed by Muhammed from the Angel Gabriel, hence why their “social practices” and attitudes towards women have not changed since the original inception of the faith.

This is the fundamental difference between the Koran and the Bible, the latter is open to interpretation, the former is not, and specifically, Christians believe that the Pope is God’s representative on earth, the Islamists have no such person.[/quote]

I would respectfully suggest that the research you have done thus far has not been carried out without prejudice. The quote you chose to illustrate your research is a little biased, would you not agree??

Your closing paragraph also displays a great ignorance of Islam. I don’t blame you for this, here in the UK we tend to hear nothing about the religion, or else only bad things. I am not trying to suggest that there aren’t fundamentalist toss-pots who hang their hat on Islam, but every religion has these. There is nothing specific about the Koran that breeds these. Heck even Buddhism - a notoriously gentle and non-violent faith suffers from its hardcore element, (search the New Kadampa Tradition controversy if you want proof of this - or google ‘Dalai Lama, death threats’).

Religion tends to get distorted by people who feel under the cosh or repressed, or else have ulterior, political motives. This is no excuse to commit acts of terrorism of course, but nor is it an excuse to ignorantly write off an ancient and colourful system of thought.

As a closing statement for you to perhaps ponder, if the Koran was not open to interpretation then how come Sufism exists at all?? How come Rumi is the worlds best-selling poet? If you are not familiar with these terms then I suggest your research of Islam has been cursory at best…

134

[quote]Malevolence wrote:
lixy wrote:
The Beast wrote:
This is the fundamental difference between the Koran and the Bible, the latter is open to interpretation, the former is not, and specifically, Christians believe that the Pope is God’s representative on earth, the Islamists have no such person.

Where on Earth did you get such erroneous info? I’m genuinely curious. Islam as preached by Mohammed encourages every one to beef up on linguistics, history and science to be able to interpret the Quran.

.

One of the most appealing aspects of Islam is the concept of ijtihad(sp?). I don’t know if I can do it justice, because it has been a while since I studied any religions. But as I recall it was the concept of questioning the holy doctrine.

The reasoning was that God, in his perfection, gave us the abilty to reason, to critically examine the world around us, and to question everything, even the existence of God, and his holy word. The idea is that, in his perfection, he knows that such reasoning will ultimately draw man back to God, but it is upto man to discover it for himself.

I was really surprised to hear of this concept in Islam, or any of the old world religions. Because it is a pretty contemporary idea that religious leaders don’t seem to like(leaders, in general don’t like their followers to think).

Not that it matters. Assholes will be assholes regardless of their believes. Religion may historically be responsible for more wars and death than anything else in human history. But, if it weren’t religion it would just be something else.

It has nothing to do with the holy books, their followers or what they do or don’t believe. The common denominators of power, control, dominance, leaders and followers…etc. extend beyond religion.
[/quote]

Good post. Many forget that Islam has produced some of the worlds finest thinkers - astronomers, poets and philosophers. Sadly these days they are drowned out by the hell-fire and brimstone peversions of the religion that consumes the front pages.

Then -at best - people with no prior knowledge conduct a cursory investigation into the religion, & pick up a few ‘choice’ quotes from the Koran that seemingly back up their opinion that it is a religion of blind, aggressive faith & nothing more.

I do think that genuine Muslims, (I wont use the word ‘moderate’, as there is nothing necessarily moderate about the intensity of their faith) perhaps have a duty here to do a bit more in the way of education, especially here in the west.

However, we in return have an equal duty to be willing to listen without bias to what they have to say, and this is clearly going to be a stumbling block for many.

135

[quote]lixy wrote:
The Beast wrote:
This is the fundamental difference between the Koran and the Bible, the latter is open to interpretation, the former is not, and specifically, Christians believe that the Pope is God’s representative on earth, the Islamists have no such person.

Where on Earth did you get such erroneous info? I’m genuinely curious. Islam as preached by Mohammed encourages every one to beef up on linguistics, history and science to be able to interpret the Quran.

The danger of radical Islamists is that some guru claims to represent God on Earth and end up abusing that power. Zawahiri anyone? Mohammed saw the trouble with the “clergy” and pro-actively fought it. The very reason why he encouraged everyone to personally interpret the Quran.

For the Nazi Imams and the massacres perpetrated by Muslims, don’t you think it’s a little hasty to blame it on their faith. Should I blame the crusade calamities on all Christians or the oppression of Palestinians on all Jews? Should I deduce based on British history that your culture somehow incites you to conquer and exploit other lands? Should I blame Nazism on the German way of life? Surely, you can reason and draw make distinctions where appropriate.

Your “research” is reminescent of the guy who wanted to learn more about Judaism and bought “The protocol of the elders of Zion”. Keep a critical eye and cross check whatever your read.[/quote]

Wow, spoken like a true convert.

Many Muslims do hold all Jews responsible for the fate of the Palestinians, this is the whole point.

My “research”, as you put it, is nothing of the sort, since Salman Rushdie caused lunatics worldwide to call for his death for writing a book I realised that the “Religion Of Peace” may not be all that it is cracked up to be.

I am not going to be taking any moral lessons from Mohammed, a man whose many accomplishments included genocide and slavery. If this is your idea of a moral role model, there is something seriously wrong with you.

136

[quote]juninho wrote:
I would respectfully suggest that the research you have done thus far has not been carried out without prejudice. The quote you chose to illustrate your research is a little biased, would you not agree??

Your closing paragraph also displays a great ignorance of Islam. I don’t blame you for this, here in the UK we tend to hear nothing about the religion, or else only bad things. I am not trying to suggest that there aren’t fundamentalist toss-pots who hang their hat on Islam, but every religion has these. There is nothing specific about the Koran that breeds these. Heck even Buddhism - a notoriously gentle and non-violent faith suffers from its hardcore element, (search the New Kadampa Tradition controversy if you want proof of this - or google ‘Dalai Lama, death threats’).

Religion tends to get distorted by people who feel under the cosh or repressed, or else have ulterior, political motives. This is no excuse to commit acts of terrorism of course, but nor is it an excuse to ignorantly write off an ancient and colourful system of thought.

As a closing statement for you to perhaps ponder, if the Koran was not open to interpretation then how come Sufism exists at all?? How come Rumi is the worlds best-selling poet? If you are not familiar with these terms then I suggest your research of Islam has been cursory at best…[/quote]

Please direct me to the country filled with these Sufi Mystics? It is an admirable interpretation of Islam that has been firmly rejected by every single Muslim country.

May I suggest that your own research is completely one sided, leaving you with a rose-tinted view of Islam, no doubt provided by the helpful Imam who accepted you into the faith.

137

I think if you have to get your moral lessons from a book, you’re beyond help as is.

138

[quote]The Beast wrote:
Many Muslims do hold all Jews responsible for the fate of the Palestinians, [/quote]

Indeed. And many people do hold aliens responsible for the craters on the moon.

The keyword here is “lunatics”. I can get you a sample of those in any religion.

You have a very perverted view of Islam and I would surely like to know what you relied on to “research” it.

139

[quote]juninho wrote:
Not quite. The religion of Islam is merely a tool used by extremists to manipulate misguided people into achieving their political ends. Political. Not religious. Just about any book could be used for this if you wanted.
[/quote]

Well then shouldn’t Islamic RELIGIOUS leaders be the first to stand up and denounce the extremists using Islam to commit their bloodthirsty agenda?

This just underscores the accountability that Islamic religious leaders have to set the record straight and put pressure on the extreme groups to get them out of Islam. And yet, what do they do? (insert the sound of crickets in the night) They do nothing. This begs the question that maybe the religion of Islam may not be so far off from the extremists as you think.

140

[quote]lixy wrote:
You have a very perverted view of Islam and I would surely like to know what you relied on to “research” it. [/quote]

When you are prepared to debate the points I have raised I will continue. As my research is seemingly at odds with your own religious doctrine I imagine a debate will not be forthcoming.

I can quote passages from the Koran for you but no doubt they will be dismissed as being translated incorrectly, or as being taken out of context.