[quote]The Beast wrote:
juninho wrote:
I would respectfully suggest that the research you have done thus far has not been carried out without prejudice. The quote you chose to illustrate your research is a little biased, would you not agree??
Your closing paragraph also displays a great ignorance of Islam. I don’t blame you for this, here in the UK we tend to hear nothing about the religion, or else only bad things. I am not trying to suggest that there aren’t fundamentalist toss-pots who hang their hat on Islam, but every religion has these. There is nothing specific about the Koran that breeds these. Heck even Buddhism - a notoriously gentle and non-violent faith suffers from its hardcore element, (search the New Kadampa Tradition controversy if you want proof of this - or google ‘Dalai Lama, death threats’).
Religion tends to get distorted by people who feel under the cosh or repressed, or else have ulterior, political motives. This is no excuse to commit acts of terrorism of course, but nor is it an excuse to ignorantly write off an ancient and colourful system of thought.
As a closing statement for you to perhaps ponder, if the Koran was not open to interpretation then how come Sufism exists at all?? How come Rumi is the worlds best-selling poet? If you are not familiar with these terms then I suggest your research of Islam has been cursory at best…
Please direct me to the country filled with these Sufi Mystics? It is an admirable interpretation of Islam that has been firmly rejected by every single Muslim country.
May I suggest that your own research is completely one sided, leaving you with a rose-tinted view of Islam, no doubt provided by the helpful Imam who accepted you into the faith.[/quote]
You hit the nail on the head Bro! Juninho & Lixy take Mohamed’s instruction to interpret the Quran for themselves literally. So they (as rational humans) interpret the writing in a rational way. However, the real question is, does the majority of Islam interpret the Quran in the same manner? I would say that, based on the fact that the legitimate Islam religious community has not come out publicly around the world against the violence, that they quietly interpret the Quran in a similar manner.
[quote]juninho wrote:
Not quite. The religion of Islam is merely a tool used by extremists to manipulate misguided people into achieving their political ends. Political. Not religious. [/quote]
There is no distinction between religion and politics in Islam, it is the same thing. Hence the desire to spread Sharia Law, whereby religious prosecutors enforce their own religious laws. Goodbye music, television and beer, Hello public execution and female opression.
[quote] Just about any book could be used for this if you wanted.
[/quote]
“Any book” is not claimed to be the word of Allah as handed down by the Anrchangel Gabriel to Mohammed in 610AD. Again, I admire your naivete but we are not dealing with a issue that can be resolved by talking nicely about it.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
You hit the nail on the head Bro! Juninho & Lixy take Mohamed’s instruction to interpret the Quran for themselves literally. So they (as rational humans) interpret the writing in a rational way. However, the real question is, does the majority of Islam interpret the Quran in the same manner? I would say that, based on the fact that the legitimate Islam religious community has not come out publicly around the world against the violence, that they quietly interpret the Quran in a similar manner.
[/quote]
The sad fact is that most Muslims have never even read the Koran, they merely follow what they are taught.
I read of an issue that the private secretary of the Pope raised about 12 months ago in an Italian magazine, the fact is that as the Koran is not open to interpretation (as the book itself tells the reader that to interpret the Koran will result in them going to hell) so as a result, it will never be interpreted for the modern world, and we in the west will forever be faced with this clash of civilisations.
More importantly, with no such religious leader on earth for the Islamic community, who would interpret it in any case? Any such interpretation would be denounced by another sect and chaos would reign.
In relation to your point thought, I agree, if the peaceful muslim community were to vocally object and distance themselves from the violent actions of their “extremist” community, then surely there would be less violence. Trouble is, they don’t, instead they complain of victimisation, and invent terms like “islamophobia”, seeking to stop criticism of Islam and end my God given right to free speech.
At the end of the day they are trying to spread their religion, it is their duty to do so.
[quote]The Beast wrote:
I read of an issue that the private secretary of the Pope raised about 12 months ago in an Italian magazine, the fact is that as the Koran is not open to interpretation (as the book itself tells the reader that to interpret the Koran will result in them going to hell) so as a result, it will never be interpreted for the modern world, and we in the west will forever be faced with this clash of civilisations.[/quote]
Again, I’m curious to know where you find such info. Saying that the Koran prohibits its interpretation is nonsensical for anyone familiar with it.
You’re right in saying that your findings are at odds with Islam as I know it, but bear in mind that most people in my direct and indirect entourage reason in the same way as I do. You may wanna reconsider whatever you think you know about Islam.
We will succeed in destroying radical Islam, like squishing a shiteater bug.
Help, or get the fuck out of our way.
I like to think so, but I don’t think we ever will. The whole faith is centred around submission. That is somewhat at odds with the anglo-saxon world of independence and free-will.
There is only “Radical” Islam, (I thought skateboarding was “radical”, blowing up groups of people and mutiliating women requires a stronger term). Moderates are merely failing in their duties to convert the infidels.
I do not think that every muslim is a bad person, however, I do think their religion is misguided at best and just plain evil at worst. Every atrocity carried out by these death-cultists is in accordance with their book of teaching. (Which is something all the well meaning “liberals” fail to understand).
You cannot reason with a man who is carrying out the work of his “god”. The only hope is that the various muslim groups are preoccupied with wiping each other out and leave the non-muslim world alone.[/quote]
Absolutely excellent post!
BTW: I concur that sanity is connected with how seriously people take their religion. Its the ones that are beyond all reason that are the truly dangerous ones.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
juninho wrote:
Not quite. The religion of Islam is merely a tool used by extremists to manipulate misguided people into achieving their political ends. Political. Not religious. Just about any book could be used for this if you wanted.
Well then shouldn’t Islamic RELIGIOUS leaders be the first to stand up and denounce the extremists using Islam to commit their bloodthirsty agenda?
This just underscores the accountability that Islamic religious leaders have to set the record straight and put pressure on the extreme groups to get them out of Islam. And yet, what do they do? (insert the sound of crickets in the night) They do nothing. This begs the question that maybe the religion of Islam may not be so far off from the extremists as you think.
[/quote]
If they choose to be silent while extremists speak, this means that they don’t mind the extremists representing their religion. Since they are the experts on said religion, then they must believe that the extremists are correct, since they don’t correct them.
Excellent point, Lorisco.
Now a question for Muslims: why would God send Gabriel to tell Muhammed to create another religion, when He just created one a short distance up the road? Could it have been someone other than Gabriel who spoke to Muhammed? Three guesses as to who it was.
[quote]lixy wrote:
The Beast wrote:
I read of an issue that the private secretary of the Pope raised about 12 months ago in an Italian magazine, the fact is that as the Koran is not open to interpretation (as the book itself tells the reader that to interpret the Koran will result in them going to hell) so as a result, it will never be interpreted for the modern world, and we in the west will forever be faced with this clash of civilisations.
Again, I’m curious to know where you find such info. Saying that the Koran prohibits its interpretation is nonsensical for anyone familiar with it.
You’re right in saying that your findings are at odds with Islam as I know it, but bear in mind that most people in my direct and indirect entourage reason in the same way as I do. You may wanna reconsider whatever you think you know about Islam.[/quote]
Lixy, please spend some of your summer vacation in Chad, in addition to Darfur. Somehow, I know your vacation is paid for by the Swedish Government, and you can afford the extra time off… It seems that the Arabs in charge of Sudan are intent on spreading their misery into their next store neighbor. No doubt you can find a way to blame this on the US, or perhaps the situation in Gaza or the West Bank. Please present the "peaceful muslim’s approach to this situation.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
juninho wrote:
Not quite. The religion of Islam is merely a tool used by extremists to manipulate misguided people into achieving their political ends. Political. Not religious. Just about any book could be used for this if you wanted.
Well then shouldn’t Islamic RELIGIOUS leaders be the first to stand up and denounce the extremists using Islam to commit their bloodthirsty agenda?
This just underscores the accountability that Islamic religious leaders have to set the record straight and put pressure on the extreme groups to get them out of Islam. And yet, what do they do? (insert the sound of crickets in the night) They do nothing. This begs the question that maybe the religion of Islam may not be so far off from the extremists as you think.
[/quote]
You are repeating something I’ve already said here - yes Muslim leaders do need to stand up and be counted and seek to distance themselves from the extremists.
[quote]The Beast wrote:
Please direct me to the country filled with these Sufi Mystics? It is an admirable interpretation of Islam that has been firmly rejected by every single Muslim country.
May I suggest that your own research is completely one sided, leaving you with a rose-tinted view of Islam, no doubt provided by the helpful Imam who accepted you into the faith.[/quote]
Countries are defined by politics, religion is defined by spirituality. Do not confuse the two, (although granted may Muslims do…). The troubles in Ireland were not a result of some inherent violence within Christianity - they were the result of politics and sectarianism. The same applies here.
Now a question for Muslims: why would God send Gabriel to tell Muhammed to create another religion, when He just created one a short distance up the road? Could it have been someone other than Gabriel who spoke to Muhammed? Three guesses as to who it was.
[/quote]
With your last paragraph you’ve pretty much discredited your opinions on this topic. It’s irrelevant to the thread and reveals a degree of intolerance and prejudice that renders further discussion somewhat pointless. Of course you do not have to believe any aspect of the Muslim faith, but surely even you would recognise that a degree of universal tolerance is necessary for us to progress on any level.
Purposefully insulting a key aspect of anyones’ faith is the kind of incendiary tactic you’d expect from the crackpot bastard Imams who are stealing the souls of young men and turning them into suicide bombers. I know this is just an internet forum, but still. Judging from your other posts you do have a good brain in your head, and I think if you’re honest you will agree that you let yourself down a bit with that comment.
Lorisco & the Beast, been good debating this with you, you have interesting and valid viewpoints, although they’re not my own. I’m off now to go and watch 300 - there’s nowt like a homo-erotic gore fest to start the morning… Have a good day.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
juninho wrote:
Not quite. The religion of Islam is merely a tool used by extremists to manipulate misguided people into achieving their political ends. Political. Not religious. Just about any book could be used for this if you wanted.
Well then shouldn’t Islamic RELIGIOUS leaders be the first to stand up and denounce the extremists using Islam to commit their bloodthirsty agenda?
This just underscores the accountability that Islamic religious leaders have to set the record straight and put pressure on the extreme groups to get them out of Islam. And yet, what do they do? (insert the sound of crickets in the night) They do nothing. This begs the question that maybe the religion of Islam may not be so far off from the extremists as you think.[/quote]
The heart of the matter is nevertheless political, yes it is, only the topping is religious. And since the situation is pretty polarized, condemning terrorist acts in the sence that they in western eyes should be condemned, is pretty hard to do. Much harder than being against going to Iraq without being unpatriotic was, four years ago back there.
Moderate people tend to be careful people. But I agree, a charismatic, courageous and vocal moderate muslim leader would be great.
Now a question for Muslims: why would God send Gabriel to tell Muhammed to create another religion, when He just created one a short distance up the road? Could it have been someone other than Gabriel who spoke to Muhammed? Three guesses as to who it was.
With your last paragraph you’ve pretty much discredited your opinions on this topic. It’s irrelevant to the thread and reveals a degree of intolerance and prejudice that renders further discussion somewhat pointless. Of course you do not have to believe any aspect of the Muslim faith, but surely even you would recognise that a degree of universal tolerance is necessary for us to progress on any level.
Purposefully insulting a key aspect of anyones’ faith is the kind of incendiary tactic you’d expect from the crackpot bastard Imams who are stealing the souls of young men and turning them into suicide bombers. I know this is just an internet forum, but still. Judging from your other posts you do have a good brain in your head, and I think if you’re honest you will agree that you let yourself down a bit with that comment.
Lorisco & the Beast, been good debating this with you, you have interesting and valid viewpoints, although they’re not my own. I’m off now to go and watch 300 - there’s nowt like a homo-erotic gore fest to start the morning… Have a good day.
[/quote]
We have a saying here in the States about calling a spade a spade. Until I see the leaders of Islam denounce car bombings and beheadings, all done whilst shouting “Allah u Akbar!”, then my opinion remains unrevised.
Lixy, please spend some of your summer vacation in Chad, in addition to Darfur. Somehow, I know your vacation is paid for by the Swedish Government, and you can afford the extra time off… It seems that the Arabs in charge of Sudan are intent on spreading their misery into their next store neighbor. No doubt you can find a way to blame this on the US, or perhaps the situation in Gaza or the West Bank. Please present the "peaceful muslim’s approach to this situation.[/quote]
Tokoya, a head’s up; Linking to News.com.au is pretty much the same as linking to Fox News. Can’t be taken seriously by any educated person
Here’s an analysis actually worth the electrons/LCD cells/ink it’s printed with:
As for your numerous accusations of me mooching off the Swedish state, it’s highly offensive and ignorant to say the least.
Lixy, please spend some of your summer vacation in Chad, in addition to Darfur. Somehow, I know your vacation is paid for by the Swedish Government, and you can afford the extra time off… It seems that the Arabs in charge of Sudan are intent on spreading their misery into their next store neighbor. No doubt you can find a way to blame this on the US, or perhaps the situation in Gaza or the West Bank. Please present the "peaceful muslim’s approach to this situation.
Tokoya, a head’s up; Linking to News.com.au is pretty much the same as linking to Fox News. Can’t be taken seriously by any educated person
Here’s an analysis actually worth the electrons/LCD cells/ink it’s printed with:
As for your numerous accusations of me mooching off the Swedish state, it’s highly offensive and ignorant to say the least.[/quote]
Lixy,
Please stop pretending to be offended about the fact that so many of the muslims in Europe are on welfare…
The post is an article from The New York Times. Not quite FOX News. It cites the example of Bergsjon, Sweden. 40% of you folks are on welfare…Can’t blame you for milking the system in place that the state they created for you. It’s all the Jihad, that I don’t get…
It’s just that so many of your type seem ungrateful for the chance to immigrate to better spots in the world. Note the Paris riots, London & Madrid train bombings… What is it that keeps you folks from assimilating, and becoming peaceful productive types?
We have a saying here in the States about calling a spade a spade. Until I see the leaders of Islam denounce car bombings and beheadings, all done whilst shouting “Allah u Akbar!”, then my opinion remains unrevised.
Hope you enjoyed 300; wasn’t violent enough IMO.
[/quote]
I am in complete agreement that Muslims need to more vocally denounce the terrorist element that has hijacked their religion, (many are doing it quietly, they just need some more work on their PR skills). In fact I think it’s the only way that the world can properly move forward.
Re 300, I feel a whole lot gayer having watched it that’s for sure… Not a bad film at all though, fairly true to Herodotus from what I remember and visually impressive but so so camp… Anyway, back on topic…
Lixy, please spend some of your summer vacation in Chad, in addition to Darfur. Somehow, I know your vacation is paid for by the Swedish Government, and you can afford the extra time off… It seems that the Arabs in charge of Sudan are intent on spreading their misery into their next store neighbor. No doubt you can find a way to blame this on the US, or perhaps the situation in Gaza or the West Bank. Please present the "peaceful muslim’s approach to this situation.
Tokoya, a head’s up; Linking to News.com.au is pretty much the same as linking to Fox News. Can’t be taken seriously by any educated person
Here’s an analysis actually worth the electrons/LCD cells/ink it’s printed with:
As for your numerous accusations of me mooching off the Swedish state, it’s highly offensive and ignorant to say the least.[/quote]
He’s slandering you Lixy!! Apply the Sharia Law and have him publicly whipped. And if his girlfriend dares show an ankle or eyebrow, tie her to the next tree and whip her too!
The post is an article from The New York Times. Not quite FOX News. It cites the example of Bergsjon, Sweden. 40% of you folks are on welfare…Can’t blame you for milking the system in place that the state they created for you. It’s all the Jihad, that I don’t get…[/quote]
Ok, I wasn’t aware of the situation in Bergsjon. But what’s that gotta do with me?
I don’t know any Muslim who lives on welfare. So, I can’t tell you what goes on in their minds.
The bloody London and Madrid bombings were clearly an act of Islamist cells in retaliation for Iraq and were heavily condemned by Muslims in Spain and the UK alike.
You don’t need much to spark a riot in France. I recommend the excellent Kassovic movie “La haine” to comprehend the situation there.
[quote]lixy wrote:
The bloody London and Madrid bombings were clearly an act of Islamist cells in retaliation for Iraq and were heavily condemned by Muslims in Spain and the UK alike.
[/quote]
I must resist the urge to keep replying, but thridea that there was any heavy condemnation by Muslims for the bombings in London is laughable.
There was more protesting that as a result of the bombings that the general population was going to “become Islamophobic”. These protests about supposed victimisation occured much faster and louder than any token gestures of condemnation towards the actual bombing themselves.
[/quote]
Here’s the situation, the local “youths” as they are so beautifully described routinely burn hundreds of cars in France each week and the police are attacked en masse by groups of these “youths”.
Whether their violence is as a result of social deprivation is another matter, the significant factor is that there is a media blackout on these actions so as to prevent conclusions being drawn about the guilty parties by the general public. Heaven forbid that people know the truth.
[quote]karva wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
juninho wrote:
Not quite. The religion of Islam is merely a tool used by extremists to manipulate misguided people into achieving their political ends. Political. Not religious. Just about any book could be used for this if you wanted.
Well then shouldn’t Islamic RELIGIOUS leaders be the first to stand up and denounce the extremists using Islam to commit their bloodthirsty agenda?
This just underscores the accountability that Islamic religious leaders have to set the record straight and put pressure on the extreme groups to get them out of Islam. And yet, what do they do? (insert the sound of crickets in the night) They do nothing. This begs the question that maybe the religion of Islam may not be so far off from the extremists as you think.
The heart of the matter is nevertheless political, yes it is, only the topping is religious. And since the situation is pretty polarized, condemning terrorist acts in the sence that they in western eyes should be condemned, is pretty hard to do. Much harder than being against going to Iraq without being unpatriotic was, four years ago back there.
Moderate people tend to be careful people. But I agree, a charismatic, courageous and vocal moderate muslim leader would be great.
[/quote]
If the core of the issue is truly political, then any Muslim leader with a brain would know that in today’s global structure, playing the political correctness card will get you much further than violence. Using violence just confirms what the US and other Western countries already think about Islam. So whatever political change Islam really wants, the extremists are making impossible to obtain. For example, modern history demonstrates that the Palestinians received much more when they whined to the US about Israel then when they tried violence. That is why currently half of David’s Temple is in the hands of Muslims.
So I believe the title of this tread is correct, if Islam wants political change, they are nuts for allowing extremists to operate in their name, because it is ensuring they will never get the change they are looking for.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Tokoya wrote:
Please stop pretending to be offended about the fact that so many of the muslims in Europe are on welfare…
The post is an article from The New York Times. Not quite FOX News. It cites the example of Bergsjon, Sweden. 40% of you folks are on welfare…Can’t blame you for milking the system in place that the state they created for you. It’s all the Jihad, that I don’t get…
Ok, I wasn’t aware of the situation in Bergsjon. But what’s that gotta do with me?
It’s just that so many of your type seem ungrateful for the chance to immigrate to better spots in the world. Note the Paris riots, London & Madrid train bombings… What is it that keeps you folks from assimilating, and becoming peaceful productive types?
I don’t know any Muslim who lives on welfare. So, I can’t tell you what goes on in their minds.
The bloody London and Madrid bombings were clearly an act of Islamist cells in retaliation for Iraq and were heavily condemned by Muslims in Spain and the UK alike.
Here is a good article from Dr. Hamid, a onetime member of Jemaah Islamiya, an Islamist terrorist group, now a medical doctor and Muslim reformer living in the West.
He points out there is much that is clearly wrong with the Islamic world.