[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I had a discussion this morning with my Mom. She is willing to give up her liberty just so she can feel safe at night.
I am not willing to give up my liberty because I sleep well at night with my gun at the ready to defend myself. Bad things happen all the time. If anyone in here believes that the government can protect you 100% of the time you are mistaken. I am not willing to give up my liberty or my privacy.[/quote]
You said it. I don’t own a gun, even though I love them. I would still not give up my privacy or liberty for security. Even if it were 100% guaranteed nothing bad would ever happen to me I would not do it. I would much rather die a free man with my own business that is my own and nobody else’s. There are some things more valuable than continued existence; life is one of them. You are not free if someone has the potential to look over your shoulder and watch all you do…even if they choose not to look. You are then at the mercy of their benevolence, not your own.
[/quote]
Here’s the thing. I’m all about everyone having the means to own a weapon and at least live as if they are free and autonomous. But the reality is, us and our little firearms are not match for an organized law enforcement and media. The second you use your weapons in any way other than self defense, you are just a criminal. I’m not condoning what Dorner did, but really that’s what the fate is of anyone who tries to use violence as a means to an end politically as an individual in this country…
Arms in that sense are pointless. What is more powerful these days is the pen/ ideas and having an audience who will listen. Power seems to come from the combination of knowledge and the ability to tell people the truth en masse. [/quote]
It depends on where you live. There’s a lot not to like about GA, but gun laws aren’t one of them. You can own anything here, every bit as powerful as military and police. If you got the cash, you can own it.
That being said, it doesn’t really matter what the police of National Guard has. It’s numbers that count. 100 cops against 1000 armed citizens with a purpose have no chance. Then there is the issue of shooting citizens.
Don’t think it couldn’t ever come down to something like armed revolt here in America. It can happen anywhere.
When it comes right down to it, liberty is for us to defend. If we fail with pen and paper, if we fail with a bullhorn, if we exhaust all other means it very well can come down to that.[/quote]
Let’s be realistic here though, Pat. If it comes down to armed conflict between citizens and the government, all the guns in the world won’t save the citizens. What is an AR-15 or an AK-47 going to do against an Abrams tank? Or a 1500lb bomb through your kitchen skylight? Or 100 well-trained members of the military with a strong respect for the chain of command?[/quote]
I know you were talking to Pat, but lets look at history. America verses the largest standing military on the Planet. India versus Britian, and many others. If the military is sympathetic to your cause they will not fire upon you. In fact the military could split and some of the technology could be brought to one side or the other. It is not black and white, but many shades of gray that could happen if the citizenry rises up against a tyrannical government.
I am not saying we are anywhere close to that here in the US, but if we keep going down this trail it could explode really quickly. I am thinking 20 years down the line. At some point enough people will say enough, and it will be a majority.[/quote]
Before you look at history, why not just look at the last sentence of my post again? “…with a strong respect for the chain of command” I agree that generally speaking, history has shown that the armed forces are not above abandoning the chain of command and joining the populace in force. But it can happen in either direction.[/quote]
Well, your hypothetical would not really make sense in a country devolved into chaos to the point where the citizens are in armed revolt. The volunteer army would be non-existent because in our military, people are citizens first. You’re talking about pretty much an army for hire. People loyal because they expect to get something for doing so. That army wouldn’t be particularly large, there’s not enough of the good stuff to go around.
Basically it boils down to a military with a strong respect for the chain of command cannot be assumed in a country of citizens that has devolved into civil war.
Now, assuming just for a second the citizens in the military were on the side of the government, it still would rely on the numbers. If you have millions upon millions of citizens in mass revolt, a military would inflict tremendous casualties, but would not win. It depends on the numbers.[/quote]
It’s not going to happen, Pat. Not in the millions anyways. Look at this country. Do you think there are millions of people who are going to take up arms and revolt Hell no. Half of them will run into the hills and hide out and the other half won’t do anything that means putting down the iPhone for anything other than to wipe their asses.[/quote]
Agreed. Had an excellent 4 hour conversation last night with a couple buddies of mine, Inklings style, about this subject as it relates to Spenglerian outlooks on civilization and a bunch of other topics. No way the apathy shakes off in enough quantity. However, from the standpoint of “is it possible?” Yes, I believe it is absolutely possible for a popular revolt to succeed here if the mobilization force were strong enough (and it’s not and probably will never, ever become so). Just look what the Afghanis have done with zero tech and not even close to a hundred thousand in numbers. Terrain and guerilla tactics are great equalizers–the soviets had an equally large tech advantage and a much much greater iron fist, and despite the fact that they were willing to visit absolute indiscriminate destruction on their enemies (far and above anything our military or administration would stomach) they still couldn’t quell the rebels. Even the Great Khan couldn’t conquer them completely.
However, the Will is not strong enough and never will be so. Specifically because of the great distractions–iPods, iPhones, iPads, 2000 channels of tv, youtube stars, and honey boo boo. Analogous thing has happened in other civilizations through history and will continue to do so.[/quote]
Here’s the thing with the Afghanistan comparison: we aren’t Afghans. I can’t imagine that a whole lot of people in this country have the stomach to live without the creature comforts that would essentially become non-existent in the face of a popular uprising. First of all, say goodbye to the Internet and all the communication capabilities that come with it. The Afghans have always lived in abject poverty or with a complete dearth of technological advancements. Fighting the Soviets and now us isn’t really much of an adjustment for them. They’ve all grown up with that sort of environment surrounding them.
Sure, there’s some real hillbillies out there who could stomach that sort of life and are practically already living it. But let’s be honest. The general intelligence level of those people is pretty fucking low and I wouldn’t count on that crowd to mount AND sustain a successful campaign against the U.S. Armed Forces. The Soviets were well-armed, but the Afghans’ weaponry hasn’t advanced nearly as much as what they are fighting against, which is ours. And we’re showing restraint over there. I have a feeling that if the shit ever hit the fan that badly here, the Armed Forces wouldn’t be used with nearly as much restraint against us. The government would be fighting for something MUCH larger than what they’re fighting for in Afghanistan, and no option would be left unexplored.
I think what is much more likely to happen is that we continue to slowly wither away in terms of power and prestige, along with a gradual tightening of immigration laws that serve to keep the real dregs of society that keep coming over here from south of the border. Eventually, we lose enough power and prestige to the point where we aren’t capable of maintaining the sort of Armed Forces that currently keep literally the entire globe in check. At the same time, our loss of economic power makes us less attractive to immigrants, racism will probably ramp up as more and more blame the downfall on immigrants and the bottom economic rung of society (which is decidedly non-white), which will further ward off more immigration. At some point, we’ll look up and realize that our education system is fucked and there aren’t nearly the amount of people with degrees coming here to work and innovate and all that, and we’ll have essentially experienced a brain drain, although it won’t be a drain as much as pure avoidance.
Our military presence in other countries will have to be curtailed some, both for economic reasons and also because countries will begin to feel brave enough to simply tell us to get the fuck out of their countries. We won’t be the same target for terrorism that we are now, which will save us a lot of money since we won’t be fighting it everywhere anymore. Perhaps China becomes the new target, or Russia since they’re much closer to the Middle East and therefore an easier target. At the same time, I think that unrest in the Middle East will continue to rise as petroleum exports become more rare in the face of growing natural gas extraction in this country. That might be the main source of economic and political power for us at some point. It’s one of the reasons I’m starting to think that we should continue to push green technology, regardless of global warming’s veracity.
Shit, we should be pushing the idea that it can be reversed no matter what, while at the same time positioning ourselves to become the leader in producing such technology. Natural gas combined with green technologies could be enough to spark some sort of new economic boom in this country. I think it’s more likely though that it will be what we have left, rather than something new.
This will probably happen over the course of a couple centuries. We’ll probably end up something like many of the other formerly prestigious Western European countries. But instead of trending toward socialism we’ll trend toward fascism.