'Modest Encroachments on Privacy'

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I had a discussion this morning with my Mom. She is willing to give up her liberty just so she can feel safe at night.

I am not willing to give up my liberty because I sleep well at night with my gun at the ready to defend myself. Bad things happen all the time. If anyone in here believes that the government can protect you 100% of the time you are mistaken. I am not willing to give up my liberty or my privacy.[/quote]

You said it. I don’t own a gun, even though I love them. I would still not give up my privacy or liberty for security. Even if it were 100% guaranteed nothing bad would ever happen to me I would not do it. I would much rather die a free man with my own business that is my own and nobody else’s. There are some things more valuable than continued existence; life is one of them. You are not free if someone has the potential to look over your shoulder and watch all you do…even if they choose not to look. You are then at the mercy of their benevolence, not your own.
[/quote]

Here’s the thing. I’m all about everyone having the means to own a weapon and at least live as if they are free and autonomous. But the reality is, us and our little firearms are not match for an organized law enforcement and media. The second you use your weapons in any way other than self defense, you are just a criminal. I’m not condoning what Dorner did, but really that’s what the fate is of anyone who tries to use violence as a means to an end politically as an individual in this country…

Arms in that sense are pointless. What is more powerful these days is the pen/ ideas and having an audience who will listen. Power seems to come from the combination of knowledge and the ability to tell people the truth en masse. [/quote]

What?

Since when did this thread turn into a 2nd amendment thread or a Dorner thread? All i said was i like guns but don’t own them. The rest of my post had nothing–zip, nada–do do with guns or the second amendment. In fact it related directly to spying/intelligence gathering on American citizens.

I’ll tell you what guns are good for though. Dumbass criminals breaking into your home. Or your land. Or muggers. Or any othrr self defense method. I think you seriously misunderstood both his post and mine.[/quote]

You’re right, this isn’t a 2nd amendment discussion. But if you take a step back and look at the forest, a scary picture emerges. You have citizens being monitored and spied on, you have a government agency enforcing political views in the IRS, and a government trying to control journalism, and you get a very frightening setup. What you see is the birth-pangs of tyranny. And the biggest enemies aren’t the ones doing it, it’s the one who think that it can’t happen here. That all this is just paranoia and our government would never do such a thing.

Every great nation and every great society in history has fallen. I am pretty sure the people of those societies thought, that that too, would never happen to them.

Is Push and I the only people who have written their congressmen? Come on guys, it takes 5 minutes.

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/

42

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I If anyone in here believes that the government can protect you 100% of the time you are mistaken. I am not willing to give up my liberty or my privacy.[/quote]

You clearly are not Japanese.

Sadly, the people here have completely abdicated any and all responsibility for their own safety.

And have willingly surrendered much to the government and its agents.

As my wife astutely pointed out after I was “warned” by the police for coming close to ripping the head off a guy who purposefully ran me off the road, “You are raised to protect yourself; we are raised to let the police protect us.” [/quote]

Off topic, but how were you protecting yourself after he ran you off the road? Did he approach you following the incident, or did you approach him and intend to assault him?

43

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I had a discussion this morning with my Mom. She is willing to give up her liberty just so she can feel safe at night.

I am not willing to give up my liberty because I sleep well at night with my gun at the ready to defend myself. Bad things happen all the time. If anyone in here believes that the government can protect you 100% of the time you are mistaken. I am not willing to give up my liberty or my privacy.[/quote]

You said it. I don’t own a gun, even though I love them. I would still not give up my privacy or liberty for security. Even if it were 100% guaranteed nothing bad would ever happen to me I would not do it. I would much rather die a free man with my own business that is my own and nobody else’s. There are some things more valuable than continued existence; life is one of them. You are not free if someone has the potential to look over your shoulder and watch all you do…even if they choose not to look. You are then at the mercy of their benevolence, not your own.
[/quote]

Here’s the thing. I’m all about everyone having the means to own a weapon and at least live as if they are free and autonomous. But the reality is, us and our little firearms are not match for an organized law enforcement and media. The second you use your weapons in any way other than self defense, you are just a criminal. I’m not condoning what Dorner did, but really that’s what the fate is of anyone who tries to use violence as a means to an end politically as an individual in this country…

Arms in that sense are pointless. What is more powerful these days is the pen/ ideas and having an audience who will listen. Power seems to come from the combination of knowledge and the ability to tell people the truth en masse. [/quote]

It depends on where you live. There’s a lot not to like about GA, but gun laws aren’t one of them. You can own anything here, every bit as powerful as military and police. If you got the cash, you can own it.
That being said, it doesn’t really matter what the police of National Guard has. It’s numbers that count. 100 cops against 1000 armed citizens with a purpose have no chance. Then there is the issue of shooting citizens.
Don’t think it couldn’t ever come down to something like armed revolt here in America. It can happen anywhere.
When it comes right down to it, liberty is for us to defend. If we fail with pen and paper, if we fail with a bullhorn, if we exhaust all other means it very well can come down to that.[/quote]

Let’s be realistic here though, Pat. If it comes down to armed conflict between citizens and the government, all the guns in the world won’t save the citizens. What is an AR-15 or an AK-47 going to do against an Abrams tank? Or a 1500lb bomb through your kitchen skylight? Or 100 well-trained members of the military with a strong respect for the chain of command?

45

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I had a discussion this morning with my Mom. She is willing to give up her liberty just so she can feel safe at night.

I am not willing to give up my liberty because I sleep well at night with my gun at the ready to defend myself. Bad things happen all the time. If anyone in here believes that the government can protect you 100% of the time you are mistaken. I am not willing to give up my liberty or my privacy.[/quote]

You said it. I don’t own a gun, even though I love them. I would still not give up my privacy or liberty for security. Even if it were 100% guaranteed nothing bad would ever happen to me I would not do it. I would much rather die a free man with my own business that is my own and nobody else’s. There are some things more valuable than continued existence; life is one of them. You are not free if someone has the potential to look over your shoulder and watch all you do…even if they choose not to look. You are then at the mercy of their benevolence, not your own.
[/quote]

Here’s the thing. I’m all about everyone having the means to own a weapon and at least live as if they are free and autonomous. But the reality is, us and our little firearms are not match for an organized law enforcement and media. The second you use your weapons in any way other than self defense, you are just a criminal. I’m not condoning what Dorner did, but really that’s what the fate is of anyone who tries to use violence as a means to an end politically as an individual in this country…

Arms in that sense are pointless. What is more powerful these days is the pen/ ideas and having an audience who will listen. Power seems to come from the combination of knowledge and the ability to tell people the truth en masse. [/quote]

What?

Since when did this thread turn into a 2nd amendment thread or a Dorner thread? All i said was i like guns but don’t own them. The rest of my post had nothing–zip, nada–do do with guns or the second amendment. In fact it related directly to spying/intelligence gathering on American citizens.

I’ll tell you what guns are good for though. Dumbass criminals breaking into your home. Or your land. Or muggers. Or any othrr self defense method. I think you seriously misunderstood both his post and mine.[/quote]

You’re right, this isn’t a 2nd amendment discussion. But if you take a step back and look at the forest, a scary picture emerges. You have citizens being monitored and spied on, you have a government agency enforcing political views in the IRS, and a government trying to control journalism, and you get a very frightening setup. What you see is the birth-pangs of tyranny. And the biggest enemies aren’t the ones doing it, it’s the one who think that it can’t happen here. That all this is just paranoia and our government would never do such a thing.

Every great nation and every great society in history has fallen. I am pretty sure the people of those societies thought, that that too, would never happen to them.

Is Push and I the only people who have written their congressmen? Come on guys, it takes 5 minutes.

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/[/quote]

Done, but Barbara Mikulsi doesn’t give a fuck about my freedom.

46

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I had a discussion this morning with my Mom. She is willing to give up her liberty just so she can feel safe at night.

I am not willing to give up my liberty because I sleep well at night with my gun at the ready to defend myself. Bad things happen all the time. If anyone in here believes that the government can protect you 100% of the time you are mistaken. I am not willing to give up my liberty or my privacy.[/quote]

You said it. I don’t own a gun, even though I love them. I would still not give up my privacy or liberty for security. Even if it were 100% guaranteed nothing bad would ever happen to me I would not do it. I would much rather die a free man with my own business that is my own and nobody else’s. There are some things more valuable than continued existence; life is one of them. You are not free if someone has the potential to look over your shoulder and watch all you do…even if they choose not to look. You are then at the mercy of their benevolence, not your own.
[/quote]

Here’s the thing. I’m all about everyone having the means to own a weapon and at least live as if they are free and autonomous. But the reality is, us and our little firearms are not match for an organized law enforcement and media. The second you use your weapons in any way other than self defense, you are just a criminal. I’m not condoning what Dorner did, but really that’s what the fate is of anyone who tries to use violence as a means to an end politically as an individual in this country…

Arms in that sense are pointless. What is more powerful these days is the pen/ ideas and having an audience who will listen. Power seems to come from the combination of knowledge and the ability to tell people the truth en masse. [/quote]

What?

Since when did this thread turn into a 2nd amendment thread or a Dorner thread? All i said was i like guns but don’t own them. The rest of my post had nothing–zip, nada–do do with guns or the second amendment. In fact it related directly to spying/intelligence gathering on American citizens.

I’ll tell you what guns are good for though. Dumbass criminals breaking into your home. Or your land. Or muggers. Or any othrr self defense method. I think you seriously misunderstood both his post and mine.[/quote]

You’re right, this isn’t a 2nd amendment discussion. But if you take a step back and look at the forest, a scary picture emerges. You have citizens being monitored and spied on, you have a government agency enforcing political views in the IRS, and a government trying to control journalism, and you get a very frightening setup. What you see is the birth-pangs of tyranny. And the biggest enemies aren’t the ones doing it, it’s the one who think that it can’t happen here. That all this is just paranoia and our government would never do such a thing.

Every great nation and every great society in history has fallen. I am pretty sure the people of those societies thought, that that too, would never happen to them.

Is Push and I the only people who have written their congressmen? Come on guys, it takes 5 minutes.

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/[/quote]

Done, but Barbara Mikulsi doesn’t give a fuck about my freedom. [/quote]

No, she doesn’t, but you did what you could and it’s documented. That counts.

47

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]WN76 wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I If anyone in here believes that the government can protect you 100% of the time you are mistaken. I am not willing to give up my liberty or my privacy.[/quote]

You clearly are not Japanese.

Sadly, the people here have completely abdicated any and all responsibility for their own safety.

And have willingly surrendered much to the government and its agents.

As my wife astutely pointed out after I was “warned” by the police for coming close to ripping the head off a guy who purposefully ran me off the road, “You are raised to protect yourself; we are raised to let the police protect us.” [/quote]

Off topic, but how were you protecting yourself after he ran you off the road? Did he approach you following the incident, or did you approach him and intend to assault him?
[/quote]

Ha!

I was on a scooter; him in a nice, shiny, big black car. (Only gangsters and arrogant dickheads drive those here.)

When he got dangerously close to me in his attempt, I kicked his pretty litte car, and he backed off, so technically he DIDN’T run me off the road, I guess. He was “upset” about me kicking his toy, and, believe it or not, started following me. So I pulled over and got off the bike. He came toward me, and, I guess when he saw the size diff (I’m 6’ 4" / about 225; a giant over here) and the look in my eye, stopped real quick and dialed 911. He told them I had kicked his car, and there might be trouble. I was fit to be tied, and wanted to kill the cocksucker, but I have been here long enough to know that ANYBODY who fights, regardless of the reason, is in deep shit, and I heard the sirens almost immediately (that’s Japanese police for you).

Anyway, the cops came, and when I told them what happened, they scolded me for kicking the car (“You can’t do things like that in Japan! You should just call US if you are in trouble”) and warned me about ANY sort of physical violence, regardless of whether it’s “self defense” or not. I was told you can only fight “if your life is in danger.” [/quote]

From your previous post, I was under the impression he cut you off and you went out of your way to have words with him like the Turners did in South Carolina.

Your story sounds pretty reasonable and it sucks your hands are tied over there when it comes to self defense.

48

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I had a discussion this morning with my Mom. She is willing to give up her liberty just so she can feel safe at night.

I am not willing to give up my liberty because I sleep well at night with my gun at the ready to defend myself. Bad things happen all the time. If anyone in here believes that the government can protect you 100% of the time you are mistaken. I am not willing to give up my liberty or my privacy.[/quote]

You said it. I don’t own a gun, even though I love them. I would still not give up my privacy or liberty for security. Even if it were 100% guaranteed nothing bad would ever happen to me I would not do it. I would much rather die a free man with my own business that is my own and nobody else’s. There are some things more valuable than continued existence; life is one of them. You are not free if someone has the potential to look over your shoulder and watch all you do…even if they choose not to look. You are then at the mercy of their benevolence, not your own.
[/quote]

Here’s the thing. I’m all about everyone having the means to own a weapon and at least live as if they are free and autonomous. But the reality is, us and our little firearms are not match for an organized law enforcement and media. The second you use your weapons in any way other than self defense, you are just a criminal. I’m not condoning what Dorner did, but really that’s what the fate is of anyone who tries to use violence as a means to an end politically as an individual in this country…

Arms in that sense are pointless. What is more powerful these days is the pen/ ideas and having an audience who will listen. Power seems to come from the combination of knowledge and the ability to tell people the truth en masse. [/quote]

It depends on where you live. There’s a lot not to like about GA, but gun laws aren’t one of them. You can own anything here, every bit as powerful as military and police. If you got the cash, you can own it.
That being said, it doesn’t really matter what the police of National Guard has. It’s numbers that count. 100 cops against 1000 armed citizens with a purpose have no chance. Then there is the issue of shooting citizens.
Don’t think it couldn’t ever come down to something like armed revolt here in America. It can happen anywhere.
When it comes right down to it, liberty is for us to defend. If we fail with pen and paper, if we fail with a bullhorn, if we exhaust all other means it very well can come down to that.[/quote]

Let’s be realistic here though, Pat. If it comes down to armed conflict between citizens and the government, all the guns in the world won’t save the citizens. What is an AR-15 or an AK-47 going to do against an Abrams tank? Or a 1500lb bomb through your kitchen skylight? Or 100 well-trained members of the military with a strong respect for the chain of command?[/quote]

If it came to that point, I don’t think it would look like your standard military engagement. If the government is unleashing tanks against it’s people, the situation has already deteriorated beyond the point of return, the government as we know it has already ceased to exist.
Further, we have a volunteer citizen army, without volunteers, there’s no army. A government devolving to that level is going to be scant on recruits.

Lastly, it’s numbers. 50,000,000 for instance, unified in revolt isn’t going to be stopped.
What your talking about is full fledged civil war and if it came to that, all bets are off. I certainly wouldn’t intend on going peaceably to a government that’s trying to kill me.

You can look no further than Afghanistan (against the Soviets) or even our own American Revolution, for examples of relatively poor armed people against a well-oiled military machine and winning.

Make no mistake, an armed citizenry is part and parcel to a free society. I mentioned this before elsewhere, it’s that tension between citizens fear of the government and the governments fear of the citizens that maintains the balance necessary for a free society to exist under. It’s a part of the checks and balances. Without that tension we are fully under the good graces of people in power and I don’t trust them. It’s clear, based on recent developments we cannot.

49

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I If anyone in here believes that the government can protect you 100% of the time you are mistaken. I am not willing to give up my liberty or my privacy.[/quote]

You clearly are not Japanese.

Sadly, the people here have completely abdicated any and all responsibility for their own safety.

And have willingly surrendered much to the government and its agents.

As my wife astutely pointed out after I was “warned” by the police for coming close to ripping the head off a guy who purposefully ran me off the road, “You are raised to protect yourself; we are raised to let the police protect us.” [/quote]

Not Japanese. How is crime over there? If there is any crime then their little experiment did not work. Maybe a change is rip in Japan.

50

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I had a discussion this morning with my Mom. She is willing to give up her liberty just so she can feel safe at night.

I am not willing to give up my liberty because I sleep well at night with my gun at the ready to defend myself. Bad things happen all the time. If anyone in here believes that the government can protect you 100% of the time you are mistaken. I am not willing to give up my liberty or my privacy.[/quote]

You said it. I don’t own a gun, even though I love them. I would still not give up my privacy or liberty for security. Even if it were 100% guaranteed nothing bad would ever happen to me I would not do it. I would much rather die a free man with my own business that is my own and nobody else’s. There are some things more valuable than continued existence; life is one of them. You are not free if someone has the potential to look over your shoulder and watch all you do…even if they choose not to look. You are then at the mercy of their benevolence, not your own.
[/quote]

Here’s the thing. I’m all about everyone having the means to own a weapon and at least live as if they are free and autonomous. But the reality is, us and our little firearms are not match for an organized law enforcement and media. The second you use your weapons in any way other than self defense, you are just a criminal. I’m not condoning what Dorner did, but really that’s what the fate is of anyone who tries to use violence as a means to an end politically as an individual in this country…

Arms in that sense are pointless. What is more powerful these days is the pen/ ideas and having an audience who will listen. Power seems to come from the combination of knowledge and the ability to tell people the truth en masse. [/quote]

It depends on where you live. There’s a lot not to like about GA, but gun laws aren’t one of them. You can own anything here, every bit as powerful as military and police. If you got the cash, you can own it.
That being said, it doesn’t really matter what the police of National Guard has. It’s numbers that count. 100 cops against 1000 armed citizens with a purpose have no chance. Then there is the issue of shooting citizens.
Don’t think it couldn’t ever come down to something like armed revolt here in America. It can happen anywhere.
When it comes right down to it, liberty is for us to defend. If we fail with pen and paper, if we fail with a bullhorn, if we exhaust all other means it very well can come down to that.[/quote]

Let’s be realistic here though, Pat. If it comes down to armed conflict between citizens and the government, all the guns in the world won’t save the citizens. What is an AR-15 or an AK-47 going to do against an Abrams tank? Or a 1500lb bomb through your kitchen skylight? Or 100 well-trained members of the military with a strong respect for the chain of command?[/quote]

I know you were talking to Pat, but lets look at history. America verses the largest standing military on the Planet. India versus Britian, and many others. If the military is sympathetic to your cause they will not fire upon you. In fact the military could split and some of the technology could be brought to one side or the other. It is not black and white, but many shades of gray that could happen if the citizenry rises up against a tyrannical government.

I am not saying we are anywhere close to that here in the US, but if we keep going down this trail it could explode really quickly. I am thinking 20 years down the line. At some point enough people will say enough, and it will be a majority.

51

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I had a discussion this morning with my Mom. She is willing to give up her liberty just so she can feel safe at night.

I am not willing to give up my liberty because I sleep well at night with my gun at the ready to defend myself. Bad things happen all the time. If anyone in here believes that the government can protect you 100% of the time you are mistaken. I am not willing to give up my liberty or my privacy.[/quote]

You said it. I don’t own a gun, even though I love them. I would still not give up my privacy or liberty for security. Even if it were 100% guaranteed nothing bad would ever happen to me I would not do it. I would much rather die a free man with my own business that is my own and nobody else’s. There are some things more valuable than continued existence; life is one of them. You are not free if someone has the potential to look over your shoulder and watch all you do…even if they choose not to look. You are then at the mercy of their benevolence, not your own.
[/quote]

Here’s the thing. I’m all about everyone having the means to own a weapon and at least live as if they are free and autonomous. But the reality is, us and our little firearms are not match for an organized law enforcement and media. The second you use your weapons in any way other than self defense, you are just a criminal. I’m not condoning what Dorner did, but really that’s what the fate is of anyone who tries to use violence as a means to an end politically as an individual in this country…

Arms in that sense are pointless. What is more powerful these days is the pen/ ideas and having an audience who will listen. Power seems to come from the combination of knowledge and the ability to tell people the truth en masse. [/quote]

It depends on where you live. There’s a lot not to like about GA, but gun laws aren’t one of them. You can own anything here, every bit as powerful as military and police. If you got the cash, you can own it.
That being said, it doesn’t really matter what the police of National Guard has. It’s numbers that count. 100 cops against 1000 armed citizens with a purpose have no chance. Then there is the issue of shooting citizens.
Don’t think it couldn’t ever come down to something like armed revolt here in America. It can happen anywhere.
When it comes right down to it, liberty is for us to defend. If we fail with pen and paper, if we fail with a bullhorn, if we exhaust all other means it very well can come down to that.[/quote]

Let’s be realistic here though, Pat. If it comes down to armed conflict between citizens and the government, all the guns in the world won’t save the citizens. What is an AR-15 or an AK-47 going to do against an Abrams tank? Or a 1500lb bomb through your kitchen skylight? Or 100 well-trained members of the military with a strong respect for the chain of command?[/quote]

I know you were talking to Pat, but lets look at history. America verses the largest standing military on the Planet. India versus Britian, and many others. If the military is sympathetic to your cause they will not fire upon you. In fact the military could split and some of the technology could be brought to one side or the other. It is not black and white, but many shades of gray that could happen if the citizenry rises up against a tyrannical government.

I am not saying we are anywhere close to that here in the US, but if we keep going down this trail it could explode really quickly. I am thinking 20 years down the line. At some point enough people will say enough, and it will be a majority.[/quote]

Before you look at history, why not just look at the last sentence of my post again? “…with a strong respect for the chain of command” I agree that generally speaking, history has shown that the armed forces are not above abandoning the chain of command and joining the populace in force. But it can happen in either direction.

52

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I had a discussion this morning with my Mom. She is willing to give up her liberty just so she can feel safe at night.

I am not willing to give up my liberty because I sleep well at night with my gun at the ready to defend myself. Bad things happen all the time. If anyone in here believes that the government can protect you 100% of the time you are mistaken. I am not willing to give up my liberty or my privacy.[/quote]

You said it. I don’t own a gun, even though I love them. I would still not give up my privacy or liberty for security. Even if it were 100% guaranteed nothing bad would ever happen to me I would not do it. I would much rather die a free man with my own business that is my own and nobody else’s. There are some things more valuable than continued existence; life is one of them. You are not free if someone has the potential to look over your shoulder and watch all you do…even if they choose not to look. You are then at the mercy of their benevolence, not your own.
[/quote]

As a fairly new gun owner myself, if you choose to jump into the fray, I will be happy to discuss the experience and why you should go on and jump in. I didn’t do it when my kids were small because kids get into anything and everything and I wanted no accidents. Now that they are older, I jumped in and I tell you, it’s a lot of fun.
I warn you now, it’s addictive. If you manage to buy just one and not get another, you have better will power than me.
It’s all I want to do, shoot, get better, shoot some more. I am totally and completely hooked.[/quote]

Haha. I’d be more than happy to talk guns. I’ve been very at-ease around guns and very pro-gun (not anti-gun control, whatever that means semantically lol. PC bs) for as long as I remember now and growing up. However, It’s never been so much a debate with me as just a budget issue–I have things I’d rather spend the money on…or need to sometimes lol. If I’d had the free cash I would have owned a gun since high school, even though I grew up in a metropolitan suburb :). Half my family is farmers and hunters, the other half city-born scientists and businessmen.

I am, however, going trap shooting today. Schweeet sweet action. About 3 weeks ago I shot 80% after a 3 year lay-off from any shooting of any kind at all, pretty happy with that rusty performance and can’t wait to start again.

I need the spare cash first, because I’ve already decided I want to be a badass at the quickdraw, move and shoot, tactical stuff when I do get a pistol. And I need to be shooting 96/100 for doubles at trap just because I want to lol. It also helps having friends with big toys like the Barrett 50 cal sniper and other nasty tactical gear living nearby and a love of shooting :).

53

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I had a discussion this morning with my Mom. She is willing to give up her liberty just so she can feel safe at night.

I am not willing to give up my liberty because I sleep well at night with my gun at the ready to defend myself. Bad things happen all the time. If anyone in here believes that the government can protect you 100% of the time you are mistaken. I am not willing to give up my liberty or my privacy.[/quote]

You said it. I don’t own a gun, even though I love them. I would still not give up my privacy or liberty for security. Even if it were 100% guaranteed nothing bad would ever happen to me I would not do it. I would much rather die a free man with my own business that is my own and nobody else’s. There are some things more valuable than continued existence; life is one of them. You are not free if someone has the potential to look over your shoulder and watch all you do…even if they choose not to look. You are then at the mercy of their benevolence, not your own.
[/quote]

Here’s the thing. I’m all about everyone having the means to own a weapon and at least live as if they are free and autonomous. But the reality is, us and our little firearms are not match for an organized law enforcement and media. The second you use your weapons in any way other than self defense, you are just a criminal. I’m not condoning what Dorner did, but really that’s what the fate is of anyone who tries to use violence as a means to an end politically as an individual in this country…

Arms in that sense are pointless. What is more powerful these days is the pen/ ideas and having an audience who will listen. Power seems to come from the combination of knowledge and the ability to tell people the truth en masse. [/quote]

What?

Since when did this thread turn into a 2nd amendment thread or a Dorner thread? All i said was i like guns but don’t own them. The rest of my post had nothing–zip, nada–do do with guns or the second amendment. In fact it related directly to spying/intelligence gathering on American citizens.

I’ll tell you what guns are good for though. Dumbass criminals breaking into your home. Or your land. Or muggers. Or any othrr self defense method. I think you seriously misunderstood both his post and mine.[/quote]

It’s not just that though, there are people who defend the 2nd on grounds of militia, there is also the connection of privacy, ownership and weapons which you have pointed out… So to clear it up, people are comparing the government to dumbass criminals when it comes to things like eminent domain as well as privacy.

So, maybe it’s me that’s bringing influence of dorner and the 2nd amendment. To me, they aren’t very removed from one another, nearly the same thing. They are both about abuse of government power and authority. [/quote]

That is more or less true, but I don’t honestly think the eminent domain aspect or militia aspect has much bearing on the issue of domestic intelligence gathering. Pat brought up the big forest picture, and that’s pretty accurate as far as I am concerned, so maybe I just misunderstood your first response to me. It would be nice if you could start a new thread for the implications, just cuz I don’t want to derail this more than I have unintentionally if that’s alright. I think this thread is still about domestic spying…maybe. Maybe not lol.

56

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I had a discussion this morning with my Mom. She is willing to give up her liberty just so she can feel safe at night.

I am not willing to give up my liberty because I sleep well at night with my gun at the ready to defend myself. Bad things happen all the time. If anyone in here believes that the government can protect you 100% of the time you are mistaken. I am not willing to give up my liberty or my privacy.[/quote]

You said it. I don’t own a gun, even though I love them. I would still not give up my privacy or liberty for security. Even if it were 100% guaranteed nothing bad would ever happen to me I would not do it. I would much rather die a free man with my own business that is my own and nobody else’s. There are some things more valuable than continued existence; life is one of them. You are not free if someone has the potential to look over your shoulder and watch all you do…even if they choose not to look. You are then at the mercy of their benevolence, not your own.
[/quote]

Here’s the thing. I’m all about everyone having the means to own a weapon and at least live as if they are free and autonomous. But the reality is, us and our little firearms are not match for an organized law enforcement and media. The second you use your weapons in any way other than self defense, you are just a criminal. I’m not condoning what Dorner did, but really that’s what the fate is of anyone who tries to use violence as a means to an end politically as an individual in this country…

Arms in that sense are pointless. What is more powerful these days is the pen/ ideas and having an audience who will listen. Power seems to come from the combination of knowledge and the ability to tell people the truth en masse. [/quote]

It depends on where you live. There’s a lot not to like about GA, but gun laws aren’t one of them. You can own anything here, every bit as powerful as military and police. If you got the cash, you can own it.
That being said, it doesn’t really matter what the police of National Guard has. It’s numbers that count. 100 cops against 1000 armed citizens with a purpose have no chance. Then there is the issue of shooting citizens.
Don’t think it couldn’t ever come down to something like armed revolt here in America. It can happen anywhere.
When it comes right down to it, liberty is for us to defend. If we fail with pen and paper, if we fail with a bullhorn, if we exhaust all other means it very well can come down to that.[/quote]

Let’s be realistic here though, Pat. If it comes down to armed conflict between citizens and the government, all the guns in the world won’t save the citizens. What is an AR-15 or an AK-47 going to do against an Abrams tank? Or a 1500lb bomb through your kitchen skylight? Or 100 well-trained members of the military with a strong respect for the chain of command?[/quote]

I know you were talking to Pat, but lets look at history. America verses the largest standing military on the Planet. India versus Britian, and many others. If the military is sympathetic to your cause they will not fire upon you. In fact the military could split and some of the technology could be brought to one side or the other. It is not black and white, but many shades of gray that could happen if the citizenry rises up against a tyrannical government.

I am not saying we are anywhere close to that here in the US, but if we keep going down this trail it could explode really quickly. I am thinking 20 years down the line. At some point enough people will say enough, and it will be a majority.[/quote]

Before you look at history, why not just look at the last sentence of my post again? “…with a strong respect for the chain of command” I agree that generally speaking, history has shown that the armed forces are not above abandoning the chain of command and joining the populace in force. But it can happen in either direction.[/quote]

Well, your hypothetical would not really make sense in a country devolved into chaos to the point where the citizens are in armed revolt. The volunteer army would be non-existent because in our military, people are citizens first. You’re talking about pretty much an army for hire. People loyal because they expect to get something for doing so. That army wouldn’t be particularly large, there’s not enough of the good stuff to go around.

Basically it boils down to a military with a strong respect for the chain of command cannot be assumed in a country of citizens that has devolved into civil war.

Now, assuming just for a second the citizens in the military were on the side of the government, it still would rely on the numbers. If you have millions upon millions of citizens in mass revolt, a military would inflict tremendous casualties, but would not win. It depends on the numbers.

57

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I had a discussion this morning with my Mom. She is willing to give up her liberty just so she can feel safe at night.

I am not willing to give up my liberty because I sleep well at night with my gun at the ready to defend myself. Bad things happen all the time. If anyone in here believes that the government can protect you 100% of the time you are mistaken. I am not willing to give up my liberty or my privacy.[/quote]

You said it. I don’t own a gun, even though I love them. I would still not give up my privacy or liberty for security. Even if it were 100% guaranteed nothing bad would ever happen to me I would not do it. I would much rather die a free man with my own business that is my own and nobody else’s. There are some things more valuable than continued existence; life is one of them. You are not free if someone has the potential to look over your shoulder and watch all you do…even if they choose not to look. You are then at the mercy of their benevolence, not your own.
[/quote]

Here’s the thing. I’m all about everyone having the means to own a weapon and at least live as if they are free and autonomous. But the reality is, us and our little firearms are not match for an organized law enforcement and media. The second you use your weapons in any way other than self defense, you are just a criminal. I’m not condoning what Dorner did, but really that’s what the fate is of anyone who tries to use violence as a means to an end politically as an individual in this country…

Arms in that sense are pointless. What is more powerful these days is the pen/ ideas and having an audience who will listen. Power seems to come from the combination of knowledge and the ability to tell people the truth en masse. [/quote]

It depends on where you live. There’s a lot not to like about GA, but gun laws aren’t one of them. You can own anything here, every bit as powerful as military and police. If you got the cash, you can own it.
That being said, it doesn’t really matter what the police of National Guard has. It’s numbers that count. 100 cops against 1000 armed citizens with a purpose have no chance. Then there is the issue of shooting citizens.
Don’t think it couldn’t ever come down to something like armed revolt here in America. It can happen anywhere.
When it comes right down to it, liberty is for us to defend. If we fail with pen and paper, if we fail with a bullhorn, if we exhaust all other means it very well can come down to that.[/quote]

Let’s be realistic here though, Pat. If it comes down to armed conflict between citizens and the government, all the guns in the world won’t save the citizens. What is an AR-15 or an AK-47 going to do against an Abrams tank? Or a 1500lb bomb through your kitchen skylight? Or 100 well-trained members of the military with a strong respect for the chain of command?[/quote]

I know you were talking to Pat, but lets look at history. America verses the largest standing military on the Planet. India versus Britian, and many others. If the military is sympathetic to your cause they will not fire upon you. In fact the military could split and some of the technology could be brought to one side or the other. It is not black and white, but many shades of gray that could happen if the citizenry rises up against a tyrannical government.

I am not saying we are anywhere close to that here in the US, but if we keep going down this trail it could explode really quickly. I am thinking 20 years down the line. At some point enough people will say enough, and it will be a majority.[/quote]

Before you look at history, why not just look at the last sentence of my post again? “…with a strong respect for the chain of command” I agree that generally speaking, history has shown that the armed forces are not above abandoning the chain of command and joining the populace in force. But it can happen in either direction.[/quote]

Well, your hypothetical would not really make sense in a country devolved into chaos to the point where the citizens are in armed revolt. The volunteer army would be non-existent because in our military, people are citizens first. You’re talking about pretty much an army for hire. People loyal because they expect to get something for doing so. That army wouldn’t be particularly large, there’s not enough of the good stuff to go around.

Basically it boils down to a military with a strong respect for the chain of command cannot be assumed in a country of citizens that has devolved into civil war.

Now, assuming just for a second the citizens in the military were on the side of the government, it still would rely on the numbers. If you have millions upon millions of citizens in mass revolt, a military would inflict tremendous casualties, but would not win. It depends on the numbers.[/quote]

It’s not going to happen, Pat. Not in the millions anyways. Look at this country. Do you think there are millions of people who are going to take up arms and revolt Hell no. Half of them will run into the hills and hide out and the other half won’t do anything that means putting down the iPhone for anything other than to wipe their asses.

58

As far as the Military shooting on civilians, well yes it could and would happen. But on the whole I think with enough people like this Gen in charge and the average soldier becomes aware that this is not just a police action, sides will change and orders will go unfollowed. But many will die.

I have no problem with the Gov listening in on conversation. I think they have been doing this before the phone. I do have a problem with laws being passed that say its cool for them to do it. And once you get busted fall on that sword like a good solider and pay the price for breaking the law.

59

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I had a discussion this morning with my Mom. She is willing to give up her liberty just so she can feel safe at night.

I am not willing to give up my liberty because I sleep well at night with my gun at the ready to defend myself. Bad things happen all the time. If anyone in here believes that the government can protect you 100% of the time you are mistaken. I am not willing to give up my liberty or my privacy.[/quote]

You said it. I don’t own a gun, even though I love them. I would still not give up my privacy or liberty for security. Even if it were 100% guaranteed nothing bad would ever happen to me I would not do it. I would much rather die a free man with my own business that is my own and nobody else’s. There are some things more valuable than continued existence; life is one of them. You are not free if someone has the potential to look over your shoulder and watch all you do…even if they choose not to look. You are then at the mercy of their benevolence, not your own.
[/quote]

Here’s the thing. I’m all about everyone having the means to own a weapon and at least live as if they are free and autonomous. But the reality is, us and our little firearms are not match for an organized law enforcement and media. The second you use your weapons in any way other than self defense, you are just a criminal. I’m not condoning what Dorner did, but really that’s what the fate is of anyone who tries to use violence as a means to an end politically as an individual in this country…

Arms in that sense are pointless. What is more powerful these days is the pen/ ideas and having an audience who will listen. Power seems to come from the combination of knowledge and the ability to tell people the truth en masse. [/quote]

It depends on where you live. There’s a lot not to like about GA, but gun laws aren’t one of them. You can own anything here, every bit as powerful as military and police. If you got the cash, you can own it.
That being said, it doesn’t really matter what the police of National Guard has. It’s numbers that count. 100 cops against 1000 armed citizens with a purpose have no chance. Then there is the issue of shooting citizens.
Don’t think it couldn’t ever come down to something like armed revolt here in America. It can happen anywhere.
When it comes right down to it, liberty is for us to defend. If we fail with pen and paper, if we fail with a bullhorn, if we exhaust all other means it very well can come down to that.[/quote]

Let’s be realistic here though, Pat. If it comes down to armed conflict between citizens and the government, all the guns in the world won’t save the citizens. What is an AR-15 or an AK-47 going to do against an Abrams tank? Or a 1500lb bomb through your kitchen skylight? Or 100 well-trained members of the military with a strong respect for the chain of command?[/quote]

I know you were talking to Pat, but lets look at history. America verses the largest standing military on the Planet. India versus Britian, and many others. If the military is sympathetic to your cause they will not fire upon you. In fact the military could split and some of the technology could be brought to one side or the other. It is not black and white, but many shades of gray that could happen if the citizenry rises up against a tyrannical government.

I am not saying we are anywhere close to that here in the US, but if we keep going down this trail it could explode really quickly. I am thinking 20 years down the line. At some point enough people will say enough, and it will be a majority.[/quote]

Before you look at history, why not just look at the last sentence of my post again? “…with a strong respect for the chain of command” I agree that generally speaking, history has shown that the armed forces are not above abandoning the chain of command and joining the populace in force. But it can happen in either direction.[/quote]

Well, your hypothetical would not really make sense in a country devolved into chaos to the point where the citizens are in armed revolt. The volunteer army would be non-existent because in our military, people are citizens first. You’re talking about pretty much an army for hire. People loyal because they expect to get something for doing so. That army wouldn’t be particularly large, there’s not enough of the good stuff to go around.

Basically it boils down to a military with a strong respect for the chain of command cannot be assumed in a country of citizens that has devolved into civil war.

Now, assuming just for a second the citizens in the military were on the side of the government, it still would rely on the numbers. If you have millions upon millions of citizens in mass revolt, a military would inflict tremendous casualties, but would not win. It depends on the numbers.[/quote]

It’s not going to happen, Pat. Not in the millions anyways. Look at this country. Do you think there are millions of people who are going to take up arms and revolt Hell no. Half of them will run into the hills and hide out and the other half won’t do anything that means putting down the iPhone for anything other than to wipe their asses.[/quote]

Agreed. Had an excellent 4 hour conversation last night with a couple buddies of mine, Inklings style, about this subject as it relates to Spenglerian outlooks on civilization and a bunch of other topics. No way the apathy shakes off in enough quantity. However, from the standpoint of “is it possible?” Yes, I believe it is absolutely possible for a popular revolt to succeed here if the mobilization force were strong enough (and it’s not and probably will never, ever become so). Just look what the Afghanis have done with zero tech and not even close to a hundred thousand in numbers. Terrain and guerilla tactics are great equalizers–the soviets had an equally large tech advantage and a much much greater iron fist, and despite the fact that they were willing to visit absolute indiscriminate destruction on their enemies (far and above anything our military or administration would stomach) they still couldn’t quell the rebels. Even the Great Khan couldn’t conquer them completely.

However, the Will is not strong enough and never will be so. Specifically because of the great distractions–iPods, iPhones, iPads, 2000 channels of tv, youtube stars, and honey boo boo. Analogous thing has happened in other civilizations through history and will continue to do so.

60

[quote]four60 wrote:

I have no problem with the Gov listening in on conversation. I think they have been doing this before the phone. I do have a problem with laws being passed that say its cool for them to do it. And once you get busted fall on that sword like a good solider and pay the price for breaking the law.[/quote]

Completely disagree. Just because it’s been going on previously doesn’t mean we should accept it as ok or normal. Nor does it mean that we should not fight it. We should, the apathy is just too strong to overcome nationwide.

It is a maxim that the more you talk about something the less you do about it. Talking about it makes you feel better, but does absolutely nothing to actually change things. The louder someone shouts and the more they facebook post the less they have done (statistically speaking, on the distribution curve)