deadlifts, clean and presses, and curling like a madman didn’t seem to bring Bruce Lee’s speed down any. The original reason i started lifting was to be a better martial artist, but i found that i was getting more out of moving weight than practicing crescent kicks, so i prioritized PL.
However, i can definitely say that martial arts prepared me for powerlifting by giving me a strong core, flexibility to properly “olympic” squat, and knowledge of how to listen to my body and prevent injury.
lol Bruce Lee.
[quote]Zoro wrote:
deadlifts, clean and presses, and curling like a madman didn’t seem to bring Bruce Lee’s speed down any. The original reason i started lifting was to be a better martial artist, but i found that i was getting more out of moving weight than practicing crescent kicks, so i prioritized PL.
However, i can definitely say that martial arts prepared me for powerlifting by giving me a strong core, flexibility to properly “olympic” squat, and knowledge of how to listen to my body and prevent injury.[/quote]
I’ve also seen pictures of Bruce Lee barbell curling in flannel bell bottoms and men’s pumps. Maybe I should wear those clothes in the gym to become a better martial artist!
Bruce Lee + Zercher Squats = Fedor’s Death.
You need progressive overload to improve bottom line strength, and that will not happen with bodyweight only…to improve power (which ironically the PL lifts are about strength, and the olympic lifting moves develop power) you need to move moderate to heavy weights with a high velocity…both strength and power can help improve a fighter…but there are plenty of great fighters who do old school shit, crazy diets, train like maniacs in S&C programs that make no sense, but they have the right skills, genetics, and mindset and kick ass.
Chanced are if you want to improve your fight game, and are already skilled in technique and strategy, adding in pieces of an olympic liftin and “powerlifting” programs will help you. Cleans, jerks, snatch, deadlift, squat, push press, chins, rows… Id keep reps in the low range…then as everyone seems to be saying work on your right game, work your conditioning with your sparring or fight specific skills, and if you wanted to work additional conditioning Id pick out things like super hard intervals on a Versa Climber, or using a sled for pushing or pulling, sprints, sledge hammer work, whatever stuff you enjoy doing from S&C programs, speed and agility, TRX, KBs, etc in interval fashion. Just my opinion. I would not overdo the conditioning and interval stuff. Hit some low rep cleans, squats, push press one day maybe, another day hit snatches, deadlifts, bent over rows, another day hit high pulls, bench, RDL just as an example. Work on strength and power in the weightroom, work on conditioning in your fight classes and drills, and if you have that itch to do even more conditioning or ramp it up, end your lift sessions with some intervals or circuit training but do not go crazy overdoing it…some people think training hard improves your fight game, ie puking, going so you are hurt and sore for days after, etc…not so smart, train smart so you optimize performance and learn about programming good S&C stuff in combination with your fight training stuff.
As someone said train movements not muscle, ground based strength and power production as the foundation. Plus training ground based compound movements will increase your GH and T output as well so its beneficial hormonally in addition to improvements in your CNS…
[quote]bluecollarjock wrote:
You need progressive overload to improve bottom line strength, and that will not happen with bodyweight only…to improve power (which ironically the PL lifts are about strength, and the olympic lifting moves develop power) you need to move moderate to heavy weights with a high velocity…both strength and power can help improve a fighter…but there are plenty of great fighters who do old school shit, crazy diets, train like maniacs in S&C programs that make no sense, but they have the right skills, genetics, and mindset and kick ass.
Chanced are if you want to improve your fight game, and are already skilled in technique and strategy, adding in pieces of an olympic liftin and “powerlifting” programs will help you. Cleans, jerks, snatch, deadlift, squat, push press, chins, rows… Id keep reps in the low range…then as everyone seems to be saying work on your right game, work your conditioning with your sparring or fight specific skills, and if you wanted to work additional conditioning Id pick out things like super hard intervals on a Versa Climber, or using a sled for pushing or pulling, sprints, sledge hammer work, whatever stuff you enjoy doing from S&C programs, speed and agility, TRX, KBs, etc in interval fashion. Just my opinion. I would not overdo the conditioning and interval stuff. Hit some low rep cleans, squats, push press one day maybe, another day hit snatches, deadlifts, bent over rows, another day hit high pulls, bench, RDL just as an example. Work on strength and power in the weightroom, work on conditioning in your fight classes and drills, and if you have that itch to do even more conditioning or ramp it up, end your lift sessions with some intervals or circuit training but do not go crazy overdoing it…some people think training hard improves your fight game, ie puking, going so you are hurt and sore for days after, etc…not so smart, train smart so you optimize performance and learn about programming good S&C stuff in combination with your fight training stuff.
As someone said train movements not muscle, ground based strength and power production as the foundation. Plus training ground based compound movements will increase your GH and T output as well so its beneficial hormonally in addition to improvements in your CNS…
[/quote]
THIS if you want to gas out.
Guys all the fighters and fight trainers are idiots. HEAVY ass weights, plyos and intervals, it’s all you need. No retarded old school road work.
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
[quote]bluecollarjock wrote:
You need progressive overload to improve bottom line strength, and that will not happen with bodyweight only…to improve power (which ironically the PL lifts are about strength, and the olympic lifting moves develop power) you need to move moderate to heavy weights with a high velocity…both strength and power can help improve a fighter…but there are plenty of great fighters who do old school shit, crazy diets, train like maniacs in S&C programs that make no sense, but they have the right skills, genetics, and mindset and kick ass.
Chanced are if you want to improve your fight game, and are already skilled in technique and strategy, adding in pieces of an olympic liftin and “powerlifting” programs will help you. Cleans, jerks, snatch, deadlift, squat, push press, chins, rows… Id keep reps in the low range…then as everyone seems to be saying work on your right game, work your conditioning with your sparring or fight specific skills, and if you wanted to work additional conditioning Id pick out things like super hard intervals on a Versa Climber, or using a sled for pushing or pulling, sprints, sledge hammer work, whatever stuff you enjoy doing from S&C programs, speed and agility, TRX, KBs, etc in interval fashion. Just my opinion. I would not overdo the conditioning and interval stuff. Hit some low rep cleans, squats, push press one day maybe, another day hit snatches, deadlifts, bent over rows, another day hit high pulls, bench, RDL just as an example. Work on strength and power in the weightroom, work on conditioning in your fight classes and drills, and if you have that itch to do even more conditioning or ramp it up, end your lift sessions with some intervals or circuit training but do not go crazy overdoing it…some people think training hard improves your fight game, ie puking, going so you are hurt and sore for days after, etc…not so smart, train smart so you optimize performance and learn about programming good S&C stuff in combination with your fight training stuff.
As someone said train movements not muscle, ground based strength and power production as the foundation. Plus training ground based compound movements will increase your GH and T output as well so its beneficial hormonally in addition to improvements in your CNS…
[/quote]
THIS if you want to gas out.
Guys all the fighters and fight trainers are idiots. HEAVY ass weights, plyos and intervals, it’s all you need. No retarded old school road work.
[/quote]
Huh? Saying what I suggest would gas you out? I did suggest heavy weights and intervals in addition to your fighting work…Id never suggest road work or steady state cardio other than active recovery unless you were someone who had to do it for mental reasons…
If you know how to program your interval training, you can lift heavy weights in OL and PL fashion, plyos, intervals and your fight training and improve your anaerobic endurance.
[quote]bluecollarjock wrote:
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
[quote]bluecollarjock wrote:
You need progressive overload to improve bottom line strength, and that will not happen with bodyweight only…to improve power (which ironically the PL lifts are about strength, and the olympic lifting moves develop power) you need to move moderate to heavy weights with a high velocity…both strength and power can help improve a fighter…but there are plenty of great fighters who do old school shit, crazy diets, train like maniacs in S&C programs that make no sense, but they have the right skills, genetics, and mindset and kick ass.
Chanced are if you want to improve your fight game, and are already skilled in technique and strategy, adding in pieces of an olympic liftin and “powerlifting” programs will help you. Cleans, jerks, snatch, deadlift, squat, push press, chins, rows… Id keep reps in the low range…then as everyone seems to be saying work on your right game, work your conditioning with your sparring or fight specific skills, and if you wanted to work additional conditioning Id pick out things like super hard intervals on a Versa Climber, or using a sled for pushing or pulling, sprints, sledge hammer work, whatever stuff you enjoy doing from S&C programs, speed and agility, TRX, KBs, etc in interval fashion. Just my opinion. I would not overdo the conditioning and interval stuff. Hit some low rep cleans, squats, push press one day maybe, another day hit snatches, deadlifts, bent over rows, another day hit high pulls, bench, RDL just as an example. Work on strength and power in the weightroom, work on conditioning in your fight classes and drills, and if you have that itch to do even more conditioning or ramp it up, end your lift sessions with some intervals or circuit training but do not go crazy overdoing it…some people think training hard improves your fight game, ie puking, going so you are hurt and sore for days after, etc…not so smart, train smart so you optimize performance and learn about programming good S&C stuff in combination with your fight training stuff.
As someone said train movements not muscle, ground based strength and power production as the foundation. Plus training ground based compound movements will increase your GH and T output as well so its beneficial hormonally in addition to improvements in your CNS…
[/quote]
THIS if you want to gas out.
Guys all the fighters and fight trainers are idiots. HEAVY ass weights, plyos and intervals, it’s all you need. No retarded old school road work.
[/quote]
Huh? Saying what I suggest would gas you out? I did suggest heavy weights and intervals in addition to your fighting work…Id never suggest road work or steady state cardio other than active recovery unless you were someone who had to do it for mental reasons…
If you know how to program your interval training, you can lift heavy weights in OL and PL fashion, plyos, intervals and your fight training and improve your anaerobic endurance.
[/quote]
Combat sports are aerobic dominant, in addition building your aerobic endurance actually helps your anaerobic endurance. Boxers, wrestlers, muay thai fighters have all been doing road work for years and for good reason.
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
[quote]bluecollarjock wrote:
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
[quote]bluecollarjock wrote:
You need progressive overload to improve bottom line strength, and that will not happen with bodyweight only…to improve power (which ironically the PL lifts are about strength, and the olympic lifting moves develop power) you need to move moderate to heavy weights with a high velocity…both strength and power can help improve a fighter…but there are plenty of great fighters who do old school shit, crazy diets, train like maniacs in S&C programs that make no sense, but they have the right skills, genetics, and mindset and kick ass.
Chanced are if you want to improve your fight game, and are already skilled in technique and strategy, adding in pieces of an olympic liftin and “powerlifting” programs will help you. Cleans, jerks, snatch, deadlift, squat, push press, chins, rows… Id keep reps in the low range…then as everyone seems to be saying work on your right game, work your conditioning with your sparring or fight specific skills, and if you wanted to work additional conditioning Id pick out things like super hard intervals on a Versa Climber, or using a sled for pushing or pulling, sprints, sledge hammer work, whatever stuff you enjoy doing from S&C programs, speed and agility, TRX, KBs, etc in interval fashion. Just my opinion. I would not overdo the conditioning and interval stuff. Hit some low rep cleans, squats, push press one day maybe, another day hit snatches, deadlifts, bent over rows, another day hit high pulls, bench, RDL just as an example. Work on strength and power in the weightroom, work on conditioning in your fight classes and drills, and if you have that itch to do even more conditioning or ramp it up, end your lift sessions with some intervals or circuit training but do not go crazy overdoing it…some people think training hard improves your fight game, ie puking, going so you are hurt and sore for days after, etc…not so smart, train smart so you optimize performance and learn about programming good S&C stuff in combination with your fight training stuff.
As someone said train movements not muscle, ground based strength and power production as the foundation. Plus training ground based compound movements will increase your GH and T output as well so its beneficial hormonally in addition to improvements in your CNS…
[/quote]
THIS if you want to gas out.
Guys all the fighters and fight trainers are idiots. HEAVY ass weights, plyos and intervals, it’s all you need. No retarded old school road work.
[/quote]
Huh? Saying what I suggest would gas you out? I did suggest heavy weights and intervals in addition to your fighting work…Id never suggest road work or steady state cardio other than active recovery unless you were someone who had to do it for mental reasons…
If you know how to program your interval training, you can lift heavy weights in OL and PL fashion, plyos, intervals and your fight training and improve your anaerobic endurance.
[/quote]
Combat sports are aerobic dominant, in addition building your aerobic endurance actually helps your anaerobic endurance. Boxers, wrestlers, muay thai fighters have all been doing road work for years and for good reason.
[/quote]
I respectfully disagree that road work is quality training for fighting…you work on aerobic endurance too much and you hurt speed, strength and power. You can work on anaerobic endurance, strength, and power and at the same time improve aerobic endurance and VO2max. Plenty of people kick ass in many sports despite their training, not because of it. So guys in combat sports like you listed, or even the NFL, can do road work, tons of traditional cardio, functional training balancing on bosu balls, and barely touch weights and still kick ass and dominate…because of genetics, sports skills, strategy, technique, and mental toughness…
SWEET!!! A new dead horse to beat. The last one was starting to stink…
[quote]batman730 wrote:
SWEET!!! A new dead horse to beat. The last one was starting to stink…[/quote]
+1. Why can’t people accept that there is no one size fits all solution but that success leaves clues? Oh yes, all those boxers and muay thai fighters kicked ass in spite of their training 
if there had been internet forums two decades ago, the same people would tell football players not to lift because it slows them down.
Listen up, there is a MASSIVE difference between a skinny fat desk jockey jogging ten miles a week at a slow pace and a boxer running two or three miles all out. The idea that SS cardio is bad per se is the result of several studies that showed inefficient fat loss and increased cortisol levels in chronic exercisers. Well… ANYTHING you do too much will raise cortisol levels. Resistance training can increase inflammation in lean tissues, so what? We don’t necessarily know the whole story.
What we do know is that max effort 2-3 mile runs improve the performance of martial artists. Fuck Crossfit and sports scientists, fuck people who train NFL players and think their rules apply to all athletes. Stop being so… Religious about training concepts.
haha…yea Im done sorry about that…and at first skim I didnt pay attention to that photo earlier in the thread which now is hilarious…
My bad! Peace out
[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
[quote]batman730 wrote:
SWEET!!! A new dead horse to beat. The last one was starting to stink…[/quote]
+1. Why can’t people accept that there is no one size fits all solution but that success leaves clues? Oh yes, all those boxers and muay thai fighters kicked ass in spite of their training if there had been internet forums two decades ago, the same people would tell football players not to lift because it slows them down.
Listen up, there is a MASSIVE difference between a skinny fat desk jockey jogging ten miles a week at a slow pace and a boxer running two or three miles all out. The idea that SS cardio is bad per se is the result of several studies that showed inefficient fat loss and increased cortisol levels in chronic exercisers. Well… ANYTHING you do too much will raise cortisol levels. Resistance training can increase inflammation in lean tissues, so what? We don’t necessarily know the whole story.
What we do know is that max effort 2-3 mile runs improve the performance of martial artists. Fuck Crossfit and sports scientists, fuck people who train NFL players and think their rules apply to all athletes. Stop being so… Religious about training concepts.[/quote]
Terrific post.
Really, really well done. I almost want to save it for the next time this comes up… which will probably be tomorrow haha.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
[quote]batman730 wrote:
SWEET!!! A new dead horse to beat. The last one was starting to stink…[/quote]
+1. Why can’t people accept that there is no one size fits all solution but that success leaves clues? Oh yes, all those boxers and muay thai fighters kicked ass in spite of their training if there had been internet forums two decades ago, the same people would tell football players not to lift because it slows them down.
Listen up, there is a MASSIVE difference between a skinny fat desk jockey jogging ten miles a week at a slow pace and a boxer running two or three miles all out. The idea that SS cardio is bad per se is the result of several studies that showed inefficient fat loss and increased cortisol levels in chronic exercisers. Well… ANYTHING you do too much will raise cortisol levels. Resistance training can increase inflammation in lean tissues, so what? We don’t necessarily know the whole story.
What we do know is that max effort 2-3 mile runs improve the performance of martial artists. Fuck Crossfit and sports scientists, fuck people who train NFL players and think their rules apply to all athletes. Stop being so… Religious about training concepts.[/quote]
Terrific post.
Really, really well done. I almost want to save it for the next time this comes up… which will probably be tomorrow haha.[/quote]
x2. More or less deals with everything on this topic.
You guys make me blush.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
[quote]batman730 wrote:
SWEET!!! A new dead horse to beat. The last one was starting to stink…[/quote]
+1. Why can’t people accept that there is no one size fits all solution but that success leaves clues? Oh yes, all those boxers and muay thai fighters kicked ass in spite of their training if there had been internet forums two decades ago, the same people would tell football players not to lift because it slows them down.
Listen up, there is a MASSIVE difference between a skinny fat desk jockey jogging ten miles a week at a slow pace and a boxer running two or three miles all out. The idea that SS cardio is bad per se is the result of several studies that showed inefficient fat loss and increased cortisol levels in chronic exercisers. Well… ANYTHING you do too much will raise cortisol levels. Resistance training can increase inflammation in lean tissues, so what? We don’t necessarily know the whole story.
What we do know is that max effort 2-3 mile runs improve the performance of martial artists. Fuck Crossfit and sports scientists, fuck people who train NFL players and think their rules apply to all athletes. Stop being so… Religious about training concepts.[/quote]
Terrific post.
Really, really well done. I almost want to save it for the next time this comes up… which will probably be tomorrow haha.[/quote]
this should be pinned on the top of the board.
[quote]Antonio. B wrote:
[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
I second devildog. It can work if you go for a low volume PL program but you have to prioritise one of the two at some point. And while disagree with Antonio on many points, I agree that endurance and technique are more important for fighting than raw strength. (which doesn’t mean that strength, especially relative strength, won’t help. Lifting up an opponent who’s trying to choke you will show you just how useful deadlifts can be)[/quote
I think most athletic healthy men can deadlift double of their body weight almost without any prior deadlifting training. Actually, I used to lift weights while ago but was never deadlifting, nor even squatting seriously. When I decided to deadlift, I easily lifted double of my own weight and to be honest could even lift slightly more, and that was with no prior training what so ever. Same story was with some other guys I trained with. From my own experience I never had a problem lifting my opponent all the way up and throw him down, but the main thing is to take a proper position and timing to lift him up, it’s very easy to do when you have a skill and practice how to do it, and manage to take a proper position… because the opponent’s body weight isn’t even close to a double body weight deadlift. On the other hand, if you choose a wrong timing, your opponent counters you, or you have no skill, then even a triple body weight deadlift won’t help you. Not even to mention if you are gassed out…
It’s OK to lift some weights if you want just before the season and serious training, but is counter productive during the preparations for the fights.
[/quote]
At the end of the day it depends on the fighter! MMA is a strength dominant sport so you will need some strength and conditioning, if you already a gifted athlete and you are naturally strong you should do more anaerobic conditioning but if you have good endurance you should focus on max strength, power and explosiveness!
Dont let anyone tell you should not lift weights or get stronger for MMA. Look what happened to BJ Penn when he ran into GSP he got over powered, and i would arguably say BJ Penn was a better SKILLED figther but GSP was a better athlete and was obviously stronger! It wasnt until after the fight BJ Penn started taking his strength and conditioning seriously. Strength training should never precede over skill training but when i train i can tell the fighter who need S&C and i just do boxing but in a MMA environment. Usually a fighter stops there strength and conditioning a week or two before the fight, just dont go overboard on the volume, remember you train MMA you are not a power lifter.
There is alot of programs where individuals get great results with only training 2 days per week 3 the most unless your a full time fighter!
At the end of the day there is no right way to train! There are fighters who are successful with lifting weights and vice versa
[quote]Ckenney wrote:
Clearly it doesn’t, neither does sit-ups, push-ups, or jogging every night. Just a very very effective tool in created a healthier, more powerful, and stronger athlete with a more efficient nervous system that will likely pick-up on technical, sport-specific movements quicker.
Really no arguing that increasing rate of force production is going to increase performance potential. And I could just as easily say that you are seeing everything that isn’t powerlifting as the “cause” for good fighters. It isn’t a point when it is completely made up lol. All I’ve really gotten from you Pigeonkak is that you like to make assumptions and base your argument off of it.
But, I’m not going to assume this because, you know, that would be retarded. So again for everyone to see, I will re-iterate my original point. Power training for fighting is going to increase rate of force production, increase stability/mobility if done properly, improve strength of muscles/tendons/ligaments, increase nervous system efficiency, create general motor programs similar to many movements performed in combat sports thus allowing for new movements to be learned quicker, and more.
When it comes down to it, it makes you more of a beast/physical specimen which, despite what you may want to believe, definitely plays a role in a fight/sports in general. For other aspects of conditioning/technique, both EXTREMELY important, FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT and drill…[/quote]
Your right! sometimes it makes no sense explaining to these guys that max effort training can increase rate of force development and vice versa. I think these people are confused and believe you are saying the weight room will make fighters champions. The last time i checked every champion in MMA does some sort of Max effort training!