Does anybody really care about the WBC? What’s the point if the best players never play for the USA team.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Speaking of the WBC, did any of you watch the Dom - USA game?
If you had, you would’ve caught a glimpse as to how bad the Jays starting C JP Arencibia is.
This was a controversial call and the Dominicans were pissed (justifiably). But what I noticed as I have watching JP many times before: How terrible he is at framing the pitch. He is one god awful receiver.
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I don’t know enough about him to know whether or not he’s good at framing a pitch, but the gif you put up isn’t a very good one to judge it from.
Framing a pitch is used for close pitches, if a ball is clearly a ball, there’s no use and it can even backfire as it will make it appear like he’s framing the close pitches as well (which he is, but you want to give the ump the impression that you’re not framing the pitch).
That gif is just a reflection on how bad that call was, IMO.
I agree with you guys to the extent that it wasn’t the best example. The GIF was originally posted on the site I grabbed it from for the blown call not to analyze JPA’s ability to frame the pitch.
While it does look like the pitcher just badly missed his spot, I disagree with the “no use” in routinely framing pitches. Regular framing of pitches gives the umpire the impression the pitcher is hitting his spots more frequently than he actually is. This ultimately will lead to more strike calls.
You can see this reflected in the way umpires call games. When a pitcher is all over the place in terms of his command, the umpire will not give him the borderline calls more often than not. On the flipside, when a pitcher is hammering the strike zone all game long, he will get borderline calls go his way more often than not. I think regular framing by the catcher contributes to this effect positively, albeit minimally.
I also will add, while that was definitely a tough pitch for JPA to frame, I still think he could’ve done a better job of receiving there.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I agree with you guys to the extent that it wasn’t the best example. The GIF was originally posted on the site I grabbed it from for the blown call not to analyze JPA’s ability to frame the pitch.
While it does look like the pitcher just badly missed his spot, I disagree with the “no use” in routinely framing pitches. Regular framing of pitches gives the umpire the impression the pitcher is hitting his spots more frequently than he actually is. This ultimately will lead to more strike calls.
You can see this reflected in the way umpires call games. When a pitcher is all over the place in terms of his command, the umpire will not give him the borderline calls more often than not. On the flipside, when a pitcher is hammering the strike zone all game long, he will get borderline calls go his way more often than not. I think regular framing by the catcher contributes to this effect positively, albeit minimally.
I also will add, while that was definitely a tough pitch for JPA to frame, I still think he could’ve done a better job of receiving there.
[/quote]
Disagree all you want about routinely framing pitches. You’re still wrong. I hear guys talk about it all the time who played in the bigs. The umpire literally takes it as an insult to his intelligence when the catcher tries to frame anything but a borderline pitch. They know what are strikes and what are very close to being strikes, or at least they think they do. The same holds true at the minor league and Division I college level.
When a pitcher is all over the place he doesn’t get the calls because he hasn’t “earned” them, not because it doesn’t give the catcher a chance to frame a pitch.
As far as the example you provided regarding Arencibia, you have no clue what you’re saying. He should have received it better? It was nowhere close to the strike zone. Granted, it was called a strike, but everyone knows that Angel Hernandez is one of the worst umps in baseball with perhaps the worst understanding of the strike zone in the world. I’m sure Arencibia was shocked that it was called a strike.
He didn’t frame it because it wasn’t anywhere near the strike zone and he essentially gave up on receiving it in a manner that allows him to frame it. Had he done so with literally any other umpire, and probably on most similar pitches with Hernandez back there, the umpire is going to tell the catcher to go fuck himself.
By trying to frame a pitch that far out of the zone the catcher is essentially saying that he thinks the ump is so blind that maybe he can pull a fast one on him by trying to get the call on a pitch a foot wide of the plate. Keep doing that kind of shit and you A) won’t be getting ANY borderline calls throughout the game, and B) you’ll soon develop a reputation amongst the other umps as a complete asshole and that will come back to haunt you and any pitcher unlucky enough to throw to you.
Judicial framing of the pitches is what gets the pitcher close calls more often when he’s already around the zone a lot. The umps know when you’re framing a pitch. It’s easier to sneak one past them when the pitches are all close anyways and you aren’t having to frame everything. An ump sees a catcher frame every single pitch that is just off the edge and he gets wise to it.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
When a pitcher is all over the place he doesn’t get the calls because he hasn’t “earned” them, not because it doesn’t give the catcher a chance to frame a pitch. [/quote]
I disagree and think both play a part. Catcher sell calls all the time.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
As far as the example you provided regarding Arencibia, you have no clue what you’re saying. He should have received it better? It was nowhere close to the strike zone. Granted, it was called a strike, but everyone knows that Angel Hernandez is one of the worst umps in baseball with perhaps the worst understanding of the strike zone in the world. I’m sure Arencibia was shocked that it was called a strike.
He didn’t frame it because it wasn’t anywhere near the strike zone and he essentially gave up on receiving it in a manner that allows him to frame it. Had he done so with literally any other umpire, and probably on most similar pitches with Hernandez back there, the umpire is going to tell the catcher to go fuck himself.
[/quote]
Watch the ball as it’s about to be caught, it’s breaking back towards the plate but it’s hard to tell. You know why? Because of that dramatic shift Arencibia makes away from the batter.
Halladay left the game today after 1 inning. His fastball was sitting at 87MPH.
He was apparently removed for a stomach virus.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
When a pitcher is all over the place he doesn’t get the calls because he hasn’t “earned” them, not because it doesn’t give the catcher a chance to frame a pitch. [/quote]
I disagree and think both play a part. Catcher sell calls all the time.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
As far as the example you provided regarding Arencibia, you have no clue what you’re saying. He should have received it better? It was nowhere close to the strike zone. Granted, it was called a strike, but everyone knows that Angel Hernandez is one of the worst umps in baseball with perhaps the worst understanding of the strike zone in the world. I’m sure Arencibia was shocked that it was called a strike.
He didn’t frame it because it wasn’t anywhere near the strike zone and he essentially gave up on receiving it in a manner that allows him to frame it. Had he done so with literally any other umpire, and probably on most similar pitches with Hernandez back there, the umpire is going to tell the catcher to go fuck himself.
[/quote]
Watch the ball as it’s about to be caught, it’s breaking back towards the plate but it’s hard to tell. You know why? Because of that dramatic shift Arencibia makes away from the batter.
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Jesus Christ, Raj. Why are you arguing this point? I know what I’m talking about here and the fact is that pitch wasn’t anywhere close to the plate. Breaking back toward it? I don’t think so. It was a slider that the pitcher didn’t get his hand on top of and spun out of his fingers poorly. It was breaking downward but the ball had actually backed up on him, meaning that if anything it was moving slightly away from the plate.
And just where the hell do you think the ball starts breaking in relation to the plate? It starts breaking about 2/3 of the way there and doesn’t break more than maybe 18 inches from where it started. Even it broke more than two full feet from point A to point B that still means that it only travels a little more than an inch per foot. And a two-foot break is fucking HUGE for a slider to break. So when it crossed the plate and where Arencibia caught it, even if it WAS moving back toward the plate significantly (which it wasn’t) by framing it he’s only going to get the pitch a few inches closer to the corner than where it actually crossed anyways. The umpire sees him trying to bring a pitch that was AT LEAST a foot outside back to about 6 inches off the plate and the ump will tell Arencibia to go fuck himself.
The problem with watching on TV is that the view from behind the pitcher doesn’t give you a three-dimensional look at things. Plus, you’re at an angle anyways. Pitches that are just off the plate on the pitcher’s right-hand side always look closer than they actually are. If you were to watch that pitch from directly behind the pitcher, like some ballparks’ cameras do, you’d get a better look at just how far off the plate that pitch was and just how little, if at all, it was moving toward the plate.
I love reading the two of you arguing in these MLB threads. I’m not even kidding. You both follow overall baseball a lot more than I do and I appreciate the seemingly always opposite view points you guys have. You guys need your own TV show, you would be perfect for Pardon the Interruption (which I haven’t watched in years).
This thread was best when it was db, Bonez, scj119 and I posting regularly.
A good mix of saber vs “high levellers”
This thread can be fun but in a way can get boring arguing with the same person all season for the most part.
It would be nice if you lanky and maiden posted more often for the sake of variety
[quote]therajraj wrote:
This thread was best when it was db, Bonez, scj119 and I posting regularly.
A good mix of saber vs “high levellers”
This thread can be fun but in a way can get boring arguing with the same person all season for the most part.
It would be nice if you lanky and maiden posted more often for the sake of variety [/quote]
It would be nice if you knew what the fuck you were talking about more often, too.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
It would be nice if you lanky and maiden posted more often for the sake of variety [/quote]
I follow the Phillies very closely, the rest of baseball I just have a general idea of what is going on, quite frankly I can’t hang.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
It would be nice if you lanky and maiden posted more often for the sake of variety [/quote]
I follow the Phillies very closely, the rest of baseball I just have a general idea of what is going on, quite frankly I can’t hang. [/quote]
Meh, I’m the same except with the Blue Jays.
I mostly listen to baseball podcasts 2 and from work and read ESPN articles for info around the league.
I only catch a handful of non-blue jay games a year.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
It would be nice if you lanky and maiden posted more often for the sake of variety [/quote]
I follow the Phillies very closely, the rest of baseball I just have a general idea of what is going on, quite frankly I can’t hang. [/quote]
Meh, I’m the same except with the Blue Jays.
I mostly listen to baseball podcasts 2 and from work and read ESPN articles for info around the league.
I only catch a handful of non-blue jay games a year. [/quote]
I think the problem with this thread is that there simply aren’t that many baseball fans on here to begin with. Football is huge and if you look at the NFL thread, there’s really only about a dozen regular posters in there. Unfortunately, baseball is turning into more of a niche sport these days.
It doesn’t bother me at all though. I’d rather talk about baseball with just a couple of diehard fans of their own teams than a bunch of casual fans whose interest isn’t even geared toward a particular team. I’ll settle for you, though.
You’re really in a mood today eh? So much so your MLB comments have penetrated multiple threads?
I don’t think MLB is turning into a niche sport if revenues are any indication.
It probably just doesn’t appeal to the average T-Nation poster due it’s lack of constant action. Doesn’t have that raw primal appeal other sports have
It’s tough to follow baseball closely, that’s the problem. So many games, 162 game season is such a grind.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
You’re really in a mood today eh? So much so your MLB comments have penetrated multiple threads?
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It’s called marketing and promotion. Maybe someone will come over here to see what all the fuss is about and actually participate in the thread.
I dont know how many people are following the WBC?
Please MLB, have Bob Costas do the play by play for the playoffs and world series. It’s amazing how much more entertaining baseball is when it doesnt have joe buck and the other idiot trying to do commentary.
[quote]Aggv wrote:
I dont know how many people are following the WBC?
Please MLB, have Bob Costas do the play by play for the playoffs and world series. It’s amazing how much more entertaining baseball is when it doesnt have joe buck and the other idiot trying to do commentary. [/quote]
Goddamn, ain’t that the truth. Those two are like listening to a couple of gibbering orangoutangs arguing over a fucking puddle of water. I’ve always thought that what the networks should do is bring in the best announcer from each team playing in that series and have the two of them call the game together. Imagine if the Giants and the Dodgers were playing each other in the NLCS and Vin Scully and Jon Miller were in the booth together. That would be awesome. And naturally, some of these Midwest guys are pretty over the top with the way they obviously favor their own team. If you get two jerks like that together in the same booth and the game starts to turn into a blowout we could be in for some real fireworks from the announcers, which might be the best way to save what would otherwise be a pretty boring game.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Aggv wrote:
I dont know how many people are following the WBC?
Please MLB, have Bob Costas do the play by play for the playoffs and world series. It’s amazing how much more entertaining baseball is when it doesnt have joe buck and the other idiot trying to do commentary. [/quote]
Goddamn, ain’t that the truth. Those two are like listening to a couple of gibbering orangoutangs arguing over a fucking puddle of water. I’ve always thought that what the networks should do is bring in the best announcer from each team playing in that series and have the two of them call the game together. Imagine if the Giants and the Dodgers were playing each other in the NLCS and Vin Scully and Jon Miller were in the booth together. That would be awesome. And naturally, some of these Midwest guys are pretty over the top with the way they obviously favor their own team. If you get two jerks like that together in the same booth and the game starts to turn into a blowout we could be in for some real fireworks from the announcers, which might be the best way to save what would otherwise be a pretty boring game.[/quote]
that’s a pretty interesting idea, and i would also include radio guys: I know in Cleveland Tom Hamilton is a pretty sweet radio guy, where the TV guys not so much.
How these 2 idiots still have jobs in professional sports is amazing to me.
McCarver: “That’s a sound he has not heard too often in this ballpark. That sound of ‘Barry! Barry!’”
Joe Buck: "They used to say it for someone else around here.
McCarver: “When Barry Manilow was here at concerts.”
[quote]Aggv wrote:
I dont know how many people are following the WBC?
Please MLB, have Bob Costas do the play by play for the playoffs and world series. It’s amazing how much more entertaining baseball is when it doesnt have joe buck and the other idiot trying to do commentary. [/quote]
Costas does games for MLB network correct? As long as half of the playoffs and all of the World Series are all on Fox we will continue to hear Joe fucking Buck.