In on Cubs hate. Shitty team, shitty stadium, shitty neighborhood, shitty bars, shitty people, shitty cabbies, shitty traffic, shitty parking.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I’m sold on big Hurok but not pettite, nova or Hughes.
I’m not sure what to expect from 3/5 of their rotation. Those guys will need a lot of run support[/quote]
I dont understand your logic, Im assuming your not sold on Pettite because of his age, but he has been as consistent as they come, an all star and a winner. He has pitched excellent last year when healthy and so far this year. Health is the only thing I worry about, but not to be sold on a proven all star and winner is weird.
Especially when you are sold on Dickey who is also old and does not have nearly the track record of Pettite.
As far as Hughes and Nova go, If were relying on Hughes to be a 2 or 3, I would agree we are in trouble, but he is our 4th. I have been disappointed in Nova admittedly he has the talent but may not have it between the ears.
You wont see Hughes in pinstripes next year. Fly ball pitcher in the Yankee bandbox does not mix.
Congrats on your win today
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
I dont understand your logic, Im assuming your not sold on Pettite because of his age, but he has been as consistent as they come, an all star and a winner. He has pitched excellent last year when healthy and so far this year. Health is the only thing I worry about, but not to be sold on a proven all star and winner is weird. [/quote]
Well age is part of it. The other part would be that he hasn’t thrown over 200IP since 2008 (though he threw 194IP in 2009). Big Hurok on the other hand threw over 200 effective IP the last couple of years. He looks great thus far and I see no reason for it not to continue.
I"m not convinced Pettite will be able to give you a full year since he hasn’t done it in a long time. He could however be effective for a few months before hitting a wall
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
Especially when you are sold on Dickey who is also old and does not have nearly the track record of Pettite. [/quote]
Really silly to compare the career track of a knuckle baller to a standard pitcher.
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
As far as Hughes and Nova go, If were relying on Hughes to be a 2 or 3, I would agree we are in trouble, but he is our 4th. I have been disappointed in Nova admittedly he has the talent but may not have it between the ears.
You wont see Hughes in pinstripes next year. Fly ball pitcher in the Yankee bandbox does not mix.
Congrats on your win today
[/quote]
If Pettite cannot pitch a full season he will be your 3rd barring a trade.
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
In on Cubs hate. Shitty team, shitty stadium, shitty neighborhood, shitty bars, shitty people, shitty cabbies, shitty traffic, shitty parking.[/quote]
Ha, I take it you are a Sox fan? I thought all traffic in Chicago was shitty.
Not silly at all, the guy won a Cy Young against standard pitchers, there is no reason not to compare. What is silly is your insistence that Dickey will be fine and he has far less of a track record, going against lineups sans a pitcher, that’s whats silly. Dickey has had one phenomenal year, and two decent years, yet you have this confident predilection.
If you cant compare then he should have never won a Cy
Lots of ifs, and if he doesn’t get hurt he is a hell of a third starter, and would take him as my third starter over Buerhle or Morrow, and would take Hughes over Happ any day.
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
Not silly at all, the guy won a Cy Young against standard pitchers, there is no reason not to compare. [/quote]
What I mean is that knuckleballers do not age the same way standard pitchers do. Knuckleball pitchers of the past have thrown well into their 40’s. Dickey who is 38 really isn’t that old for a knuckle baller.
Joe Niekro for instance had a mid 3 ERA when he was 38.
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
What is silly is your insistence that Dickey will be fine and he has far less of a track record, going against lineups sans a pitcher, that’s whats silly. Dickey has had one phenomenal year, and two decent years, yet you have this confident predilection.[/quote]
So 600+ effective IP over the last 3 years isn’t enough of a track record for you to say Dickey will be fine this year? What, in your opinion, is enough of a track record?
Pettite has a good track record, but I don’t consider his effectiveness from 5 years ago (the last time he threw 200IP btw) to be an accurate predictor of what he’ll do this year. Plus for a standard pitcher, 40 is old.
Oh and while he’s been great so far this year, luck has been on his side as well. His strand rate is 90% which is unsustainable.
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
Lots of ifs, and if he doesn’t get hurt he is a hell of a third starter, and would take him as my third starter over Buerhle or Morrow, and would take Hughes over Happ any day.[/quote]
Okay.
Assuming both Morrow and Pettite stay healthy and throw 200IP, you’d want Morrow. He is really really good.
The track record has less of a meaning when he hasn’t pitched in the American League, so no its not enough of a track record, in fact he has no track record of sustainable success in the American League, unless of course if you want to count his pre-knuckle ball stats.
RE Morrow:
Pettitte has never been one to not allow hits, his effectiveness lies above the stats, as he generally gets out of jams and is usually the pitcher to stop losing streaks, he is also adept at the double play, something Morrow is not. If Morrow has the career of Pettitte it would be a damn good career.
Because Pettitte is you know…really really good.
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
The track record has less of a meaning when he hasn’t pitched in the American League, so no its not enough of a track record, in fact he has no track record of sustainable success in the American League, unless of course if you want to count his pre-knuckle ball stats.[/quote]
Wow, you just took a major dump on the NL. I wonder what the NL fans in this thread think of this.
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
RE Morrow:
Pettitte has never been one to not allow hits, his effectiveness lies above the stats, as he generally gets out of jams and is usually the pitcher to stop losing streaks, he is also adept at the double play, something Morrow is not. If Morrow has the career of Pettitte it would be a damn good career.
Because Pettitte is you know…really really good.
[/quote]
Right he’s had an excellent career. But in the current junctures of their respective careers, I’d take a 28 year old Morrow over a 40 year old Pettite.
As for Pettite’s strand rate - his career LOB% is 71.7% while so far this year it’s been 89.6%. That’s gonna go down.
[quote]strungoutboy21 wrote:
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
In on Cubs hate. Shitty team, shitty stadium, shitty neighborhood, shitty bars, shitty people, shitty cabbies, shitty traffic, shitty parking.[/quote]
Ha, I take it you are a Sox fan? I thought all traffic in Chicago was shitty.[/quote]
Honestly, you have no idea until you live here for a couple years. Just a complete clusterfuck.
Interesting article about an apparent dip in velocity amongst many of the league’s top aces and hardest throwers. It just goes to show that fastball velocity isn’t everything if a guy knows how to pitch and has other quality offerings he can throw up there.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Interesting article about an apparent dip in velocity amongst many of the league’s top aces and hardest throwers. It just goes to show that fastball velocity isn’t everything if a guy knows how to pitch and has other quality offerings he can throw up there.[/quote]
It’s everything if you’re ubaldo jimenez as the article pointed out.
I am waiting for Verlander to regress this year to his pre-2011 form. That 1.22 whip he is sporting this year is not indicative of maintaining a 2.13 era
[quote]Anonymity wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Interesting article about an apparent dip in velocity amongst many of the league’s top aces and hardest throwers. It just goes to show that fastball velocity isn’t everything if a guy knows how to pitch and has other quality offerings he can throw up there.[/quote]
It’s everything if you’re ubaldo jimenez as the article pointed out.
I am waiting for Verlander to regress this year to his pre-2011 form. That 1.22 whip he is sporting this year is not indicative of maintaining a 2.13 era[/quote]
I don’t think fastball velocity meant a whole lot to Jimenez either, since he wasn’t a very good pitcher at all when he had the great velocity. Other than his exceptional first half in 2010, he was an average pitcher at best. I suppose the fastball velocity did matter, in that it allowed him to compensate for the fact that he didn’t really do anything else very well at all. He had a WHIP of almost 1.5 in 2008 and if he didn’t have the sort of velocity he had back then his ERA that year probably would have been much higher than the 3.99 that he finished with.
In 2009, he had a WHIP of 1.22 and an ERA of 3.47, both improvements and both decent numbers. But still, for someone who threw as hard as he did and had the sort of movement that he did, he didn’t do nearly what he should have been. He’s NEVER struck out more batters than innings pitched in a season, despite being the hardest thrower in the league in 2009 and 2010. Tim Lincecum on the other hand has struck out more batters than innings pitched in every single season he’s played in the majors.
So when people say that Jimenez has fallen off of a cliff due in part to a loss of velocity, I wonder exactly what cliff it was that he was on to begin with. He had one helluva first half in 2010, but other than that he’s been average to horrible every year. He wasn’t good when he had the big velocity so of course he’s not going to be good without it.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Anonymity wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Interesting article about an apparent dip in velocity amongst many of the league’s top aces and hardest throwers. It just goes to show that fastball velocity isn’t everything if a guy knows how to pitch and has other quality offerings he can throw up there.[/quote]
It’s everything if you’re ubaldo jimenez as the article pointed out.
I am waiting for Verlander to regress this year to his pre-2011 form. That 1.22 whip he is sporting this year is not indicative of maintaining a 2.13 era[/quote]
I don’t think fastball velocity meant a whole lot to Jimenez either, since he wasn’t a very good pitcher at all when he had the great velocity. Other than his exceptional first half in 2010, he was an average pitcher at best. I suppose the fastball velocity did matter, in that it allowed him to compensate for the fact that he didn’t really do anything else very well at all. He had a WHIP of almost 1.5 in 2008 and if he didn’t have the sort of velocity he had back then his ERA that year probably would have been much higher than the 3.99 that he finished with.
In 2009, he had a WHIP of 1.22 and an ERA of 3.47, both improvements and both decent numbers. But still, for someone who threw as hard as he did and had the sort of movement that he did, he didn’t do nearly what he should have been. He’s NEVER struck out more batters than innings pitched in a season, despite being the hardest thrower in the league in 2009 and 2010. Tim Lincecum on the other hand has struck out more batters than innings pitched in every single season he’s played in the majors.
So when people say that Jimenez has fallen off of a cliff due in part to a loss of velocity, I wonder exactly what cliff it was that he was on to begin with. He had one helluva first half in 2010, but other than that he’s been average to horrible every year. He wasn’t good when he had the big velocity so of course he’s not going to be good without it.[/quote]
I believe starting post all star 2008 you could consider Ubaldo a #2 starter. So you go half of '08, all of '09 and '10. I think that’s a pretty good stretch to tag someone as one of the more top-level pitchers. Especially if they flash signs of brilliance for a period of time as Ubaldo did.
However, I still agree with you, I never really thought he was that great despite my bias(I had him on my fantasy team for his 2010 year and watched him pitch when I was at school in Colorado), but he showcased the ability to be better than great which is why people still talk about him even though his career might as well be over. He always seemed to have terrible command of his pitches. It’s like he would just aim center of the plate and let one fly and see where it ended up.
[quote]Anonymity wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Anonymity wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Interesting article about an apparent dip in velocity amongst many of the league’s top aces and hardest throwers. It just goes to show that fastball velocity isn’t everything if a guy knows how to pitch and has other quality offerings he can throw up there.[/quote]
It’s everything if you’re ubaldo jimenez as the article pointed out.
I am waiting for Verlander to regress this year to his pre-2011 form. That 1.22 whip he is sporting this year is not indicative of maintaining a 2.13 era[/quote]
I don’t think fastball velocity meant a whole lot to Jimenez either, since he wasn’t a very good pitcher at all when he had the great velocity. Other than his exceptional first half in 2010, he was an average pitcher at best. I suppose the fastball velocity did matter, in that it allowed him to compensate for the fact that he didn’t really do anything else very well at all. He had a WHIP of almost 1.5 in 2008 and if he didn’t have the sort of velocity he had back then his ERA that year probably would have been much higher than the 3.99 that he finished with.
In 2009, he had a WHIP of 1.22 and an ERA of 3.47, both improvements and both decent numbers. But still, for someone who threw as hard as he did and had the sort of movement that he did, he didn’t do nearly what he should have been. He’s NEVER struck out more batters than innings pitched in a season, despite being the hardest thrower in the league in 2009 and 2010. Tim Lincecum on the other hand has struck out more batters than innings pitched in every single season he’s played in the majors.
So when people say that Jimenez has fallen off of a cliff due in part to a loss of velocity, I wonder exactly what cliff it was that he was on to begin with. He had one helluva first half in 2010, but other than that he’s been average to horrible every year. He wasn’t good when he had the big velocity so of course he’s not going to be good without it.[/quote]
I believe starting post all star 2008 you could consider Ubaldo a #2 starter. So you go half of '08, all of '09 and '10. I think that’s a pretty good stretch to tag someone as one of the more top-level pitchers. Especially if they flash signs of brilliance for a period of time as Ubaldo did.
However, I still agree with you, I never really thought he was that great despite my bias(I had him on my fantasy team for his 2010 year and watched him pitch when I was at school in Colorado), but he showcased the ability to be better than great which is why people still talk about him even though his career might as well be over. He always seemed to have terrible command of his pitches. It’s like he would just aim center of the plate and let one fly and see where it ended up.
[/quote]
If he was a #2 that means he was still the 31st best pitcher in the majors. I wouldn’t even have ranked him that high, quite frankly. He reminds a lot of Brett Tomko. Great stuff, never really put it together.
Evan Gattis is an interesting story. He just hit a massive bomb in Colorado that almost landed on the concourse.
Don’t worry about Cain’s struggles, I’m sure he’ll make for a great relief pitcher in the postseason.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Don’t worry about Cain’s struggles, I’m sure he’ll make for a great relief pitcher in the postseason.
[/quote]
Yeah. Maybe RA Dickey can offer some analysis of the situation from ESPN’s studio during the playoffs.
Jesus CHrist you guys…
This is one of the furthest homers I’ve ever seen hit. Only 17 balls have ever been hit in the 500 section since the dome opened
Better yet, here’s the vid
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?topic_id=42160142&content_id=26728753
Man, I thought the Blue Jays were definitely an over-hyped team but I didn’t they suck THIS bad. Second worst record in the bigs. Wow. They sure suck cock.