Batting average measures how often you make an out when you don’t walk or get hit by a pitch.
Batting average, in other words, in on base percentage minus the times you walk or get hit.
You’re using the same stat with a smaller denominator that unnecessarily eliminates plate appearances.
Cliff Lee - back to back shutouts. Hasn’t given up a run in almost 30 straight innings. Glad he took a smaller contract to stay in Philly.
From glancing at Cliff Lee’s numbers this year, he has arguably pitched better than Halladay.
As far as media is concerned, it’s looking like A-Gon has fallen out the MVP race and now it’s between Verlander, Bautista and Granderson.
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
All this arguing over what stat means more to the MVP vote and all that is a bunch of bullshit. OBP is important to top of the order hitters. Avg w/ RISP, which removes the amount of runners actually on base in front of a hitter from the equation, is the most important hitting statistic for a middle of the lineup hitter like Adrian Gonzalez or Jose Bautista.
The most important thing Bautista could do for his team is not get on base and leave it up to others to drive him in. He isn’t paid for that. He’s paid to hit home runs and drive runs in. And at this he’s an utter failure, batting .240 with RISP as opposed to .315 without them in scoring position. You guys can argue all you want about total runs scored or RBI’s but it doesn’t change the fact that if Bautista DID hit well with RISP he would compare much more favorably to Granderson or Gonzalez. He does NOT compare favorably because he hits about 100 points lower than Adrian Gonzalez does with RISP and THAT is why his RBI total is significantly lower.
Bautista is not the MVP for that simple fact. He does not drive in runs at the same pace that Gonzalez does because he doesn’t hit well in the clutch. Toronto’s #1 and #2 hitters get on base and/or advance runners into scoring position. For who? Bautista. He isn’t being paid to get on base, period. The Blue Jays don’t give a shit about his high OBP because it doesn’t help them win games. Bautista driving in runs helps them win games, period. He doesn’t do it that well, period.[/quote]
So he should swing at pitches in the dirt just to make sure he never walks? I hate that argument.
[/quote]
Not once did I make that argument.
My point is that Bautista doesn’t deserve any special recognition AT ALL for having a high OBP. Half the reason he gets on base so much is due to the fact he gets pitched around a lot. But since when does that make him valuable to his team? It would be one thing if he were hitting .300 with RISP, but he’s not. He’s hitting .240. So it’s ridiculous to sit here and say that IF he got pitched to more often he would drive in significantly more runs and it’s equally ridiculous to sit here and say IF he hit with more runners on base he would also drive in significantly more runs.
Would he have more RBI’s? Sure, but probably not that much more since he doesn’t hit well with runners on base. Should he start swinging at everything? Of course not. But maybe he should be much more aggressive at the plate in these situations. There’s a reason why he gets pitched around: the opposing team has a much better chance of winning by putting him on base rather than going right after him. THIS is why his OBP doesn’t mean shit and why he isn’t the MVP. All too often he comes to the plate with RISP and does not drive them in. It’s unfortunate that he gets pitched around, but the fact remains that even if he didn’t get pitched around it’s dubious to say he would be driving in runs at the pace that Adrian Gonzalez and his .345 avg w/ RISP does. The fact that Bautista does get pitched around with men on makes each at-bat in which he IS pitched to that much more important for his team’s chances of success. And in these KEY moments for his team’s chances of success, he shrinks up to the tune of a .240 avg. That is NOT how an MVP performs.[/quote]
For the life of me I can’t figure out how you can care about batting average and not OBP. You’ll use a stat that counts a HR the same as a single, but not a stat that counts a walk the same as a single? There is a much bigger difference between a HR and a single than between a single and a walk.
Put it another way: The definition of batting average is how often you get on base given that you didn’t walk or get hit by pitch. It’s basically OBP with 10-15% of your plate appearances removed from the denominator. This is a fact that is not arguable.[/quote]
I don’t place universal value on a stat as it pertains from player to player. For top of the lineup hitters, OBP is more important than RBI’s or avg w/ RISP. For middle of the lineup hitters, the opposite is true. So to me, a really high OBP doesn’t have nearly the same value to a team if it’s in lieu of hitting well with RISP regarding the cleanup hitter. That’s all I’m saying.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
From glancing at Cliff Lee’s numbers this year, he has arguably pitched better than Halladay. [/quote]
Yeah. I think Clayton Kershaw should get the Cy Young. All three of them have had virtually equal seasons, but I think Kershaw has been more consistent from start to start than Lee has and his overall #'s are slightly better than Halladay’s.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
All this arguing over what stat means more to the MVP vote and all that is a bunch of bullshit. OBP is important to top of the order hitters. Avg w/ RISP, which removes the amount of runners actually on base in front of a hitter from the equation, is the most important hitting statistic for a middle of the lineup hitter like Adrian Gonzalez or Jose Bautista.
The most important thing Bautista could do for his team is not get on base and leave it up to others to drive him in. He isn’t paid for that. He’s paid to hit home runs and drive runs in. And at this he’s an utter failure, batting .240 with RISP as opposed to .315 without them in scoring position. You guys can argue all you want about total runs scored or RBI’s but it doesn’t change the fact that if Bautista DID hit well with RISP he would compare much more favorably to Granderson or Gonzalez. He does NOT compare favorably because he hits about 100 points lower than Adrian Gonzalez does with RISP and THAT is why his RBI total is significantly lower.
Bautista is not the MVP for that simple fact. He does not drive in runs at the same pace that Gonzalez does because he doesn’t hit well in the clutch. Toronto’s #1 and #2 hitters get on base and/or advance runners into scoring position. For who? Bautista. He isn’t being paid to get on base, period. The Blue Jays don’t give a shit about his high OBP because it doesn’t help them win games. Bautista driving in runs helps them win games, period. He doesn’t do it that well, period.[/quote]
So he should swing at pitches in the dirt just to make sure he never walks? I hate that argument.
[/quote]
Not once did I make that argument.
My point is that Bautista doesn’t deserve any special recognition AT ALL for having a high OBP. Half the reason he gets on base so much is due to the fact he gets pitched around a lot. But since when does that make him valuable to his team? It would be one thing if he were hitting .300 with RISP, but he’s not. He’s hitting .240. So it’s ridiculous to sit here and say that IF he got pitched to more often he would drive in significantly more runs and it’s equally ridiculous to sit here and say IF he hit with more runners on base he would also drive in significantly more runs.
Would he have more RBI’s? Sure, but probably not that much more since he doesn’t hit well with runners on base. Should he start swinging at everything? Of course not. But maybe he should be much more aggressive at the plate in these situations. There’s a reason why he gets pitched around: the opposing team has a much better chance of winning by putting him on base rather than going right after him. THIS is why his OBP doesn’t mean shit and why he isn’t the MVP. All too often he comes to the plate with RISP and does not drive them in. It’s unfortunate that he gets pitched around, but the fact remains that even if he didn’t get pitched around it’s dubious to say he would be driving in runs at the pace that Adrian Gonzalez and his .345 avg w/ RISP does. The fact that Bautista does get pitched around with men on makes each at-bat in which he IS pitched to that much more important for his team’s chances of success. And in these KEY moments for his team’s chances of success, he shrinks up to the tune of a .240 avg. That is NOT how an MVP performs.[/quote]
For the life of me I can’t figure out how you can care about batting average and not OBP. You’ll use a stat that counts a HR the same as a single, but not a stat that counts a walk the same as a single? There is a much bigger difference between a HR and a single than between a single and a walk.
Put it another way: The definition of batting average is how often you get on base given that you didn’t walk or get hit by pitch. It’s basically OBP with 10-15% of your plate appearances removed from the denominator. This is a fact that is not arguable.[/quote]
I don’t place universal value on a stat as it pertains from player to player. For top of the lineup hitters, OBP is more important than RBI’s or avg w/ RISP. For middle of the lineup hitters, the opposite is true. So to me, a really high OBP doesn’t have nearly the same value to a team if it’s in lieu of hitting well with RISP regarding the cleanup hitter. That’s all I’m saying. [/quote]
Right but batting average is the same thing as on base percentage just with walks removed from the denominator. If singles are counting the same as HR’s, then it’s valuing all hits as just “not being an out”… which is just the likelihood of being safe given that it’s not a walk.
If you’re measuring that way I just don’t see the point of removing a large set of plate appearances from the denominator.
I also think taking a walk instead of striking out on a bad pitch because you desperately want to drive in a run is a good thing to do. I view the hierarchy of hitting like this:
Making an out <<<<<<< walk < single < double < triple < HR
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
From glancing at Cliff Lee’s numbers this year, he has arguably pitched better than Halladay. [/quote]
Yeah. I think Clayton Kershaw should get the Cy Young. All three of them have had virtually equal seasons, but I think Kershaw has been more consistent from start to start than Lee has and his overall #'s are slightly better than Halladay’s.[/quote]
IMO Halladay and Kershaw are nearly identical, it matters how each finishes. Both are insane.
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
All this arguing over what stat means more to the MVP vote and all that is a bunch of bullshit. OBP is important to top of the order hitters. Avg w/ RISP, which removes the amount of runners actually on base in front of a hitter from the equation, is the most important hitting statistic for a middle of the lineup hitter like Adrian Gonzalez or Jose Bautista.
The most important thing Bautista could do for his team is not get on base and leave it up to others to drive him in. He isn’t paid for that. He’s paid to hit home runs and drive runs in. And at this he’s an utter failure, batting .240 with RISP as opposed to .315 without them in scoring position. You guys can argue all you want about total runs scored or RBI’s but it doesn’t change the fact that if Bautista DID hit well with RISP he would compare much more favorably to Granderson or Gonzalez. He does NOT compare favorably because he hits about 100 points lower than Adrian Gonzalez does with RISP and THAT is why his RBI total is significantly lower.
Bautista is not the MVP for that simple fact. He does not drive in runs at the same pace that Gonzalez does because he doesn’t hit well in the clutch. Toronto’s #1 and #2 hitters get on base and/or advance runners into scoring position. For who? Bautista. He isn’t being paid to get on base, period. The Blue Jays don’t give a shit about his high OBP because it doesn’t help them win games. Bautista driving in runs helps them win games, period. He doesn’t do it that well, period.[/quote]
So he should swing at pitches in the dirt just to make sure he never walks? I hate that argument.
[/quote]
Not once did I make that argument.
My point is that Bautista doesn’t deserve any special recognition AT ALL for having a high OBP. Half the reason he gets on base so much is due to the fact he gets pitched around a lot. But since when does that make him valuable to his team? It would be one thing if he were hitting .300 with RISP, but he’s not. He’s hitting .240. So it’s ridiculous to sit here and say that IF he got pitched to more often he would drive in significantly more runs and it’s equally ridiculous to sit here and say IF he hit with more runners on base he would also drive in significantly more runs.
Would he have more RBI’s? Sure, but probably not that much more since he doesn’t hit well with runners on base. Should he start swinging at everything? Of course not. But maybe he should be much more aggressive at the plate in these situations. There’s a reason why he gets pitched around: the opposing team has a much better chance of winning by putting him on base rather than going right after him. THIS is why his OBP doesn’t mean shit and why he isn’t the MVP. All too often he comes to the plate with RISP and does not drive them in. It’s unfortunate that he gets pitched around, but the fact remains that even if he didn’t get pitched around it’s dubious to say he would be driving in runs at the pace that Adrian Gonzalez and his .345 avg w/ RISP does. The fact that Bautista does get pitched around with men on makes each at-bat in which he IS pitched to that much more important for his team’s chances of success. And in these KEY moments for his team’s chances of success, he shrinks up to the tune of a .240 avg. That is NOT how an MVP performs.[/quote]
For the life of me I can’t figure out how you can care about batting average and not OBP. You’ll use a stat that counts a HR the same as a single, but not a stat that counts a walk the same as a single? There is a much bigger difference between a HR and a single than between a single and a walk.
Put it another way: The definition of batting average is how often you get on base given that you didn’t walk or get hit by pitch. It’s basically OBP with 10-15% of your plate appearances removed from the denominator. This is a fact that is not arguable.[/quote]
I don’t place universal value on a stat as it pertains from player to player. For top of the lineup hitters, OBP is more important than RBI’s or avg w/ RISP. For middle of the lineup hitters, the opposite is true. So to me, a really high OBP doesn’t have nearly the same value to a team if it’s in lieu of hitting well with RISP regarding the cleanup hitter. That’s all I’m saying. [/quote]
Right but batting average is the same thing as on base percentage just with walks removed from the denominator. If singles are counting the same as HR’s, then it’s valuing all hits as just “not being an out”… which is just the likelihood of being safe given that it’s not a walk.
If you’re measuring that way I just don’t see the point of removing a large set of plate appearances from the denominator.[/quote]
Don’t bother. They don’t have an argument. I’ve pointed out Bautista earns RBI with RISP at basically the same rate as A-Gon yet he hasn’t addressed that because he can’t.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
All this arguing over what stat means more to the MVP vote and all that is a bunch of bullshit. OBP is important to top of the order hitters. Avg w/ RISP, which removes the amount of runners actually on base in front of a hitter from the equation, is the most important hitting statistic for a middle of the lineup hitter like Adrian Gonzalez or Jose Bautista.
The most important thing Bautista could do for his team is not get on base and leave it up to others to drive him in. He isn’t paid for that. He’s paid to hit home runs and drive runs in. And at this he’s an utter failure, batting .240 with RISP as opposed to .315 without them in scoring position. You guys can argue all you want about total runs scored or RBI’s but it doesn’t change the fact that if Bautista DID hit well with RISP he would compare much more favorably to Granderson or Gonzalez. He does NOT compare favorably because he hits about 100 points lower than Adrian Gonzalez does with RISP and THAT is why his RBI total is significantly lower.
Bautista is not the MVP for that simple fact. He does not drive in runs at the same pace that Gonzalez does because he doesn’t hit well in the clutch. Toronto’s #1 and #2 hitters get on base and/or advance runners into scoring position. For who? Bautista. He isn’t being paid to get on base, period. The Blue Jays don’t give a shit about his high OBP because it doesn’t help them win games. Bautista driving in runs helps them win games, period. He doesn’t do it that well, period.[/quote]
So he should swing at pitches in the dirt just to make sure he never walks? I hate that argument.
[/quote]
Not once did I make that argument.
My point is that Bautista doesn’t deserve any special recognition AT ALL for having a high OBP. Half the reason he gets on base so much is due to the fact he gets pitched around a lot. But since when does that make him valuable to his team? It would be one thing if he were hitting .300 with RISP, but he’s not. He’s hitting .240. So it’s ridiculous to sit here and say that IF he got pitched to more often he would drive in significantly more runs and it’s equally ridiculous to sit here and say IF he hit with more runners on base he would also drive in significantly more runs.
Would he have more RBI’s? Sure, but probably not that much more since he doesn’t hit well with runners on base. Should he start swinging at everything? Of course not. But maybe he should be much more aggressive at the plate in these situations. There’s a reason why he gets pitched around: the opposing team has a much better chance of winning by putting him on base rather than going right after him. THIS is why his OBP doesn’t mean shit and why he isn’t the MVP. All too often he comes to the plate with RISP and does not drive them in. It’s unfortunate that he gets pitched around, but the fact remains that even if he didn’t get pitched around it’s dubious to say he would be driving in runs at the pace that Adrian Gonzalez and his .345 avg w/ RISP does. The fact that Bautista does get pitched around with men on makes each at-bat in which he IS pitched to that much more important for his team’s chances of success. And in these KEY moments for his team’s chances of success, he shrinks up to the tune of a .240 avg. That is NOT how an MVP performs.[/quote]
For the life of me I can’t figure out how you can care about batting average and not OBP. You’ll use a stat that counts a HR the same as a single, but not a stat that counts a walk the same as a single? There is a much bigger difference between a HR and a single than between a single and a walk.
Put it another way: The definition of batting average is how often you get on base given that you didn’t walk or get hit by pitch. It’s basically OBP with 10-15% of your plate appearances removed from the denominator. This is a fact that is not arguable.[/quote]
I don’t place universal value on a stat as it pertains from player to player. For top of the lineup hitters, OBP is more important than RBI’s or avg w/ RISP. For middle of the lineup hitters, the opposite is true. So to me, a really high OBP doesn’t have nearly the same value to a team if it’s in lieu of hitting well with RISP regarding the cleanup hitter. That’s all I’m saying. [/quote]
Right but batting average is the same thing as on base percentage just with walks removed from the denominator. If singles are counting the same as HR’s, then it’s valuing all hits as just “not being an out”… which is just the likelihood of being safe given that it’s not a walk.
If you’re measuring that way I just don’t see the point of removing a large set of plate appearances from the denominator.[/quote]
Don’t bother. They don’t have an argument. I’ve pointed out Bautista earns RBI with RISP at basically the same rate as A-Gon yet he hasn’t addressed that because he can’t.
[/quote]
It has been addressed.
And even so, Im not sure he’s not able to address it but rather doesnt want to because it’s a retarded argument.
You are saying that three players have nearly identical numbers for a specific stat. Yet Gonzalez and Granderson are blowing Bautista away in raw production.
You are back to making the claim that the player on the “bad team” (4th in offense), should be rewarded for his comparable numbers. Thats simply absurd. Ive mentioned this once already and you didnt have a valid response to it.
If Bautista was the MOST valuable player he’d be driving in runs at a HIGHER clip than those less valuable than him. A guy having similar raw stats (total RBI), on a ‘bad team’, to a guy on a good team should be valued higher because it required better performance to amass the same numbers with less to work with. I understand logic is not everyone’s forte but please tell me you understand this at this point.
You have completely overlooked the fact that Bautista’s batting average drops markedly with RISP while Granderson’s remains pretty close to his season average. Address that.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
You are back to making the claim that the player on the “bad team” (4th in offense), should be rewarded for his comparable numbers. [/quote]
No, he’s saying he shouldn’t be PUNISHED for shitty teammates and lack of RBI opportunities (less men on base)… big difference between rewarding someone and not punishing them.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
You have completely overlooked the fact that Bautista’s batting average drops markedly with RISP while Granderson’s remains pretty close to his season average. Address that. [/quote]
Only because Granderson has a worse average to begin with. They are similar with men on base and you are punishing Bautista for being a better hitter with the bases empty? Huh?
If they have similar skills at one thing, and Bautista is better at a different skill, how exactly does that hurt him?
He should hit .190 with the bases empty, then if he had his current statline w/ RISP, he’d be even better at it than he is now! Dumb argument is dumb.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
You are back to making the claim that the player on the “bad team” (4th in offense), should be rewarded for his comparable numbers. Thats simply absurd. Ive mentioned this once already and you didnt have a valid response to it.
[/quote]
scj119 has addressed everything else but I want to comment on this.
Look at the runs scored differential between the Jays and Yankees - there is almost a 100 run difference. The Jays do not have a bad offense, but compared to the Yankees it’s not even close. Not to mention Adam Lind and Edwin Encarnacion hit behind Bautista while Mark Texeira and A-Rod hit behind Granderson.
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
You are back to making the claim that the player on the “bad team” (4th in offense), should be rewarded for his comparable numbers. [/quote]
No, he’s saying he shouldn’t be PUNISHED for shitty teammates and lack of RBI opportunities (less men on base)… big difference between rewarding someone and not punishing them.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
You have completely overlooked the fact that Bautista’s batting average drops markedly with RISP while Granderson’s remains pretty close to his season average. Address that. [/quote]
Only because Granderson has a worse average to begin with. They are similar with men on base and you are punishing Bautista for being a better hitter with the bases empty? Huh?
If they have similar skills at one thing, and Bautista is better at a different skill, how exactly does that hurt him?
He should hit .190 with the bases empty, then if he had his current statline w/ RISP, he’d be even better at it than he is now! Dumb argument is dumb.[/quote]
The point is that Bautista folds in the spots where he needs to dominate to give his team a chance to win.
Youre another one with the logic skills of a raccoon.
If he had a 190 avg he wouldnt be in the conversation, let alone being compared to a better performer. Obviously you know that. The point is that Raj was trying to say how Bautista has similar stats to Granderson wrt RISP AVG. He does, but he underperforms in those situations. In the most important situations he is in in any given game, he shits the bed.
A player on a bad team should not be disqualified from the MVP conversation, as some writers believe. However, the player on a bad team needs to have a season full of dominance across the board. It’s the reason Arod won ONE mvp in texas when he easily could have won 4. The year that he won was undeniable. There was no one close to him. Bautista doesnt come close to mirroring that scenario.
Ill ask one last time. At what age did you stop playing baseball?
I’m surprised nobody is televising the Nationals game with Strasburg on the mound the first time this year.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
The point is that Bautista folds in the spots where he needs to dominate to give his team a chance to win.
Youre another one with the logic skills of a raccoon.
If he had a 190 avg he wouldnt be in the conversation, let alone being compared to a better performer. Obviously you know that. The point is that Raj was trying to say how Bautista has similar stats to Granderson wrt RISP AVG. He does, but he underperforms in those situations. In the most important situations he is in in any given game, he shits the bed.
A player on a bad team should not be disqualified from the MVP conversation, as some writers believe. However, the player on a bad team needs to have a season full of dominance across the board. It’s the reason Arod won ONE mvp in texas when he easily could have won 4. The year that he won was undeniable. There was no one close to him. Bautista doesnt come close to mirroring that scenario.
[/quote]
This discussion has never been about who will win, it’s been about which player has the best offensive production. Whether you think Bautista needs to put the same sort of distance between himself and other candidates like A-rod did in his MVP year is irrelevant.
Setting aside the bullshit stats of total RBI and runs scored, the only thing Granderson does noticeably better than Bautista is steal and run the bases. In basically every meaningful statistic, they are either very close or Bautista is a notch or two better.
Are you going to admit from a purely meaningful statistical standpoint, Bautista is a better performer than Granderson? That’s what this discussion has been about.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
The point is that Bautista folds in the spots where he needs to dominate to give his team a chance to win.
Youre another one with the logic skills of a raccoon.
If he had a 190 avg he wouldnt be in the conversation, let alone being compared to a better performer. Obviously you know that. The point is that Raj was trying to say how Bautista has similar stats to Granderson wrt RISP AVG. He does, but he underperforms in those situations. In the most important situations he is in in any given game, he shits the bed.
A player on a bad team should not be disqualified from the MVP conversation, as some writers believe. However, the player on a bad team needs to have a season full of dominance across the board. It’s the reason Arod won ONE mvp in texas when he easily could have won 4. The year that he won was undeniable. There was no one close to him. Bautista doesnt come close to mirroring that scenario.
[/quote]
This discussion has never been about who will win, it’s been about which player has the best offensive production. Whether you think Bautista needs to put the same sort of distance between himself and other candidates like A-rod did in his MVP year is irrelevant.
Setting aside the bullshit stats of total RBI and runs scored, the only thing Granderson does noticeably better than Bautista is steal and run the bases. In basically every meaningful statistic, they are either very close or Bautista is a notch or two better.
Are you going to admit from a purely meaningful statistical standpoint, Bautista is a better performer than Granderson? That’s what this discussion has been about.
[/quote]
The funny thing about this post is that every sports writer and baseball historian will tell you that RBI and runs are two of THE MOST IMPORTANT stats if not the top two. Yet you call them BS stats. You really just dont have a grasp of the game, that much is obvious. Youre a casual fan who has assigned his own value to stats that have been evaluated for over 80 years.
Bautista is for sure not a better performer. Not this season.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
The point is that Bautista folds in the spots where he needs to dominate to give his team a chance to win.
Youre another one with the logic skills of a raccoon.
If he had a 190 avg he wouldnt be in the conversation, let alone being compared to a better performer. Obviously you know that. The point is that Raj was trying to say how Bautista has similar stats to Granderson wrt RISP AVG. He does, but he underperforms in those situations. In the most important situations he is in in any given game, he shits the bed.
A player on a bad team should not be disqualified from the MVP conversation, as some writers believe. However, the player on a bad team needs to have a season full of dominance across the board. It’s the reason Arod won ONE mvp in texas when he easily could have won 4. The year that he won was undeniable. There was no one close to him. Bautista doesnt come close to mirroring that scenario.
[/quote]
This discussion has never been about who will win, it’s been about which player has the best offensive production. Whether you think Bautista needs to put the same sort of distance between himself and other candidates like A-rod did in his MVP year is irrelevant.
Setting aside the bullshit stats of total RBI and runs scored, the only thing Granderson does noticeably better than Bautista is steal and run the bases. In basically every meaningful statistic, they are either very close or Bautista is a notch or two better.
Are you going to admit from a purely meaningful statistical standpoint, Bautista is a better performer than Granderson? That’s what this discussion has been about.
[/quote]
The funny thing about this post is that every sports writer and baseball historian will tell you that RBI and runs are two of THE MOST IMPORTANT stats if not the top two. Yet you call them BS stats. You really just dont have a grasp of the game, that much is obvious. Youre a casual fan who has assigned his own value to stats that have been evaluated for over 80 years.
Bautista is for sure not a better performer. Not this season. [/quote]
Simply because something has been done for a long time does not make it correct.
The funny about this post is you’ve had it explained to you several times there is good reason to doubt total RBI and runs scored as means to measure individual production. You can’t deny those stats are heavily team oriented, you have been presented with piles of evidence to back this assertion.
If you care so much about what sports writers have to say why don’t you take a look at what they’re saying? Setting aside who they actually pick, almost ALL of them acknowledge Bautista has the best offensive production of the position players from a statistical standpoint.
Honestly, I think you know your arguments are shitty and the only thing you have left is to try and discredit my opinion as well as scj119’s. Hence, the tone of your last post and you pressing scj119 about his level of baseball experience.
tl;dr You are full of shit and your arguments suck.
So as I mentioned in an earlier post, Bautista earns RBI at the same rate as Granderson but doesn’t have nearly as many AB or total RBI. From the previous page I posted:
Bautista has earned 38 RBI in 84 AB (45.2%)
A-Gon 74 RBI in 158 AB (46.8%)
Granderon 63RBI in 138 AB (45.6%)
So what if Bautista had as many AB with RISP as Granderson, how many more RBI would he have?
(138AB * 45.2%) - 38 = 24.38
Bautista currently has 92 RBI while Granderson has 109. If Bautista had the same amount of AB with RISP as Granderson he would have 116 RBI assuming he continues to drive in runs at the same rate.
Justin.
Verlander.